The Weekend ITK Discussion Thread - The Men of Harlech Edition 13/14 July 2013

[Hoddle&Waddle]

if benteke was just a finisher then there'd have been no reason for lambert to play him ahead of the pl proven darren bent.

Agree, whilst he's no Berba in terms of creative ability, first touch ect ect, his hold up play is very good, he actually created more goals than Rooney last season. Whenever we are linked to a striker, you always get Spurs fans saying "but he cant do this, he cant do that", get real people, we are not going to get the all-round world class striker on our budget, unless we strike it lucky with a young talent.

 

[Spurger King]

Yeah I agree with that. Moving the ball quicker against teams at home who are sitting deep would definitely present a lot more opportunities. I'm of the same opinion, that a little play maker wasn;t the problem and refuse to believe that we don't have the ability in the current squad to move the ball fast at WHL when teams come to park the bus.

It's not just about moving the ball quickly, but about where the ball is being moved to.

As others have said, it's just good to have the option of using a more creative player. I like Siggy, Holtby, and Carroll, and think they can all bring some inventiveness to our play, but if I'm being completely honest I would value a player like Moutinho or Modric over a Paulinho type every single time.

As for the whole 'more points than ever before' argument, I'm getting really bored of it (no offense Pinky). Personally I think the quality of the Prem is lower than it has been for a while, and we had one incredible player saving our arses on multiple occasions. It's not about getting a higher number of points than the previous season, it's about finishing above your rivals. Our one dimensional football ultimately meant we failed to do that, so fuck our record Prem points total to be honest. United very nearly got the all-time points record, and they were very pedestrian in a lot of games last season.

 

[Holtby City]

Chadli to me makes a lot of sense as a purchase as he will improve on an area that we are weak at a relatively low cost leaving us with a little more money to spend on a CF.

We need a starter on the left, not a squad player. This would reek of another random Pienaar-type signing. £8m on someone who is not as good as Siggy or Dempsey, let alone Lennon.

We're past signing mediocre players who on paper seem like value. We now need only genuine world-beaters like Paulinho, or teenage potential world-beaters. Quality not quantity

 

[Mr Pink]

It's not just about moving the ball quickly, but about where the ball is being moved to.

As others have said, it's just good to have the option of using a more creative player. I like Siggy, Holtby, and Carroll, and think they can all bring some inventiveness to our play, but if I'm being completely honest I would value a player like Moutinho or Modric over a Paulinho type every single time.

As for the whole 'more points than ever before' argument, I'm getting really bored of it (no offense Pinky). Personally I think the quality of the Prem is lower than it has been for a while, and we had one incredible player saving our arses on multiple occasions. It's not about getting a higher number of points than the previous season, it's about finishing above your rivals. Our one dimensional football ultimately meant we failed to do that, so fuck our record Prem points total to be honest. United very nearly got the all-time points record, and they were very pedestrian in a lot of games last season.

I anticipated that Prem being lower than its ever been argument, which to be honest, I'm pretty bored of hearing!! If its lower, its the same for everybody anyway in a weird sort of way lol

We set up to play to get Bale on the ball as much as possible. Nothing wrong with that IMO. We should be thankful for him saving our bacon? He was in the side that AVB built around him, he was integral to us - obviously.

Anyway, we see it differently - no harm in that mate. But I like the look of our targets at the moment, and after buying Paulinho, I think its looking pretty obvious he's going down the road of a 4-3-3 formation.

We need options IMO for different conditions and circumstances. Yeah if we can pick up a creative spark to play as the left sided forward I'm all for it. I just don't think it needs to be big box office name - which we won't get anyway in all likelihood.

 

[rockyhotspur]

We need a starter on the left, not a squad player. This would reek of another random Pienaar-type signing. £8m on someone who is not as good as Siggy or Dempsey, let alone Lennon.

We're past signing mediocre players who on paper seem like value. We now need only genuine world-beaters like Paulinho, or teenage potential world-beaters. Quality not quantity

I agree with you Holtby. I would much prefer us to buy a star CF and a star wide left attacking player but if we do not have the funds available for both I think Chadli would be good enough improvement on the wide player to leave us with sufficient funds for our more pressing requirement of a CF.

 

[Harry_Snatch]

Feck me Rhonda. Another Darren Bent comparison. Benteke has much more to his game than just finishing. He had a better season than Lukaku to, not just in terms of goals...but his overall game was better.

Scored more but played more and is older so you'd expect that. Lukaku when he played showed better touch and movement ad has better technique.

I'm not saying he's similar to Darren Bent just saying that they are both expensive but only because of their resale value instead of their outstanding ability.

Berbatov for example cost 12m but took us to another level as well as nearly tripling in value!

 

[Harry_Snatch]

Agree, whilst he's no Berba in terms of creative ability, first touch ect ect, his hold up play is very good, he actually created more goals than Rooney last season. Whenever we are linked to a striker, you always get Spurs fans saying "but he cant do this, he cant do that", get real people, we are not going to get the all-round world class striker on our budget, unless we strike it lucky with a young talent.

Yet you mention Berbatov who we signed for 10-12m!

There are strikers out there that have the same ability as Berba, we just need the guts to trust a scout report and sign sb without prem experience.

 

[Harry_Snatch]

We need a starter on the left, not a squad player. This would reek of another random Pienaar-type signing. £8m on someone who is not as good as Siggy or Dempsey, let alone Lennon.

We're past signing mediocre players who on paper seem like value. We now need only genuine world-beaters like Paulinho, or teenage potential world-beaters. Quality not quantity

Agree with the post and the wish list in your sig!

 

[Mr Pink]

Scored more but played more and is older so you'd expect that. Lukaku when he played showed better touch and movement ad has better technique.

I'm not saying he's similar to Darren Bent just saying that they are both expensive but only because of their resale value instead of their outstanding ability.

Berbatov for example cost 12m but took us to another level as well as nearly tripling in value!

Resale value is a very big consideration, of course that's reflected in a valuation. But its not the only reason why he's coming with a big price tag. Its his overall ability which he showed last season coupled by the fact that's he young and has many years of service to give.

I don't agree with you either. Benteke's all round game looks better to me than Lukaku's at the moment. I think Lukaku will get better as well but he's Chelsea's property so we can forget about that.

Berbatov wasn't Premier League proven either, nor had he really ripped up Europe and had big billing exposure . Not really a relevant comparison.

 

[worcestersauce]

Seems to me that there's a belief that Lukaku went to Chelsea so he must be a star but Benteke went to Aston Villa so he can't be a star?

 

[Mr Pink]

Seems to me that there's a belief that Lukaku went to Chelsea so he must be a star but Benteke went to Aston Villa so he can't be a star?

I think there is a real element of truth in that!!

 

[Harry_Snatch]

Resale value is a very big consideration, of course that's reflected in a valuation. But its not the only reason why he's coming with a big price tag. Its his overall ability which he showed last season coupled by the fact that's he young and has many years of service to give.

I don't agree with you either. Benteke's all round game looks better to me than Lukaku's at the moment. I think Lukaku will get better as well but he's Chelsea's property so we can forget about that.

Berbatov wasn't Premier League proven either, nor had he really ripped up Europe and had big billing exposure . Not really a relevant comparison.

What?

I don't understand wht you are saying about Berbatov?

I'm not comparing him to Benteke. I'm saying that Bent and Benteke are proven in the prem and if signed then Benteke would be at a similar stage as Bent when he signed. I'm also saying that neither of those are the type of player that drastically improves us or takes us to the next level. Berbatov was a punt as he was relatively unproven when he signed but had genuine 20m qualities like first touch, technique and movement and definitely took us up a notch!
I honestly like Benteke as a player but I'm 100% convinced we could o better for 25m or even 20m!

 

[Hoddle&Waddle]

Yet you mention Berbatov who we signed for 10-12m!

There are strikers out there that have the same ability as Berba, we just need the guts to trust a scout report and sign sb without prem experience.

Let's say we did find another Berba, you'd get some fans saying "he's got no pace", thats the point I'm making, a lack of an attribute is not a reason not to sign a player.

 

[Harry_Snatch]

Seems to me that there's a belief that Lukaku went to Chelsea so he must be a star but Benteke went to Aston Villa so he can't be a star?

Not from my point of view. Weimann for example at Villa, I think could end up top class! I just think Lukaku is the better athlete, has better technique, movement and first touch. Benteke is better in the build up but not by much and is a more consistent finisher but not by much. So IMO I think Lukaku being the younger of the 2 will end up the better player and it won't take long!

 

[Mr Pink]

What?

I don't understand wht you are saying about Berbatov?

I'm not comparing him to Benteke. I'm saying that Bent and Benteke are proven in the prem and if signed then Benteke would be at a similar stage as Bent when he signed. I'm also saying that neither of those are the type of player that drastically improves us or takes us to the next level. Berbatov was a punt as he was relatively unproven when he signed but had genuine 20m qualities like first touch, technique and movement and definitely took us up a notch!
I honestly like Benteke as a player but I'm 100% convinced we could o better for 25m or even 20m!

You've lost me mate! I'm saying that's why Berbatov was reasonably affordable. Because he wasn't prem proven and had't had big billing in Europe...etc etc

And why are you saying that Benteke is like Bent in the fact that he won't drastically improve us (and for the last time they're nothing like each other)? You're saying that like its fact. I think he will, my opinion, hence why I really hope we get him. AVB is obviously convinced to.

 

[branchie]

Not sure if this was picked up from Jasper today ...... Nothing ground breaking but worth a whoring:

LD over here couple months back with his people. All seemed ready to complete and then his club wanted to wait until they had a replacement, he got a recurring injury I think missed Confeds, then things change.

 

[rockyhotspur]

Not from my point of view. Weimann for example at Villa, I think could end up top class! I just think Lukaku is the better athlete, has better technique, movement and first touch. Benteke is better in the build up but not by much and is a more consistent finisher but not by much. So IMO I think Lukaku being the younger of the 2 will end up the better player and it won't take long!

Harry, it is all onions. But at the moment we have absolutely no chance of getting Lukaku so Benteke is our only option out of the two.

 

[Harry_Snatch]

Let's say we did find another Berba, you'd get some fans saying "he's got no pace", thats the point I'm making, a lack of an attribute is not a reason not to sign a player.

Unless that attribute is what you need in a player in that position!
We don't need a wide attacker with no pace, no matter what else he does well because counter attacking is o important to the way we play.

I honestly think we missed Ades 1st touch and build up play more than hs goals when he was off form last season! We need a striker that can play alone and bring ppl into play, then have the vision to play our placement like Bale and Lennon in behind.

 

[Nanky_1988]

Yet we got more points with a team that had muscle in it as opposed to the craft of VDV and Modric the season before.

People moan about how we struggled at home, yet ignore the flip side of the coin in which it was a strength in terms of how we performed away from home. Yes the logic is obvious, we had the pace and power to exploit the space away from home. I never remember Modric being as good away from home as he was at WHL though and I certainly don't ever remember us being as good away from home as we were last season. I think we won 10 away games and had Sandro not got injured I reckon we would of won 13/14 away games.

Yes we need some more guile against the bus parkers at home but that doesn't account for every game we set up to play in the League. Personally I want the powerful/pacey team I think AVB is trying to build. What we need is good options to set up for any given game - and game changing options.

Teams come to the Lane and sit deep negating alot of the pace and power we have! So for this reason I believe we need some creativity. Chadli is creative and maybe we could do with a creative central midfielder to pull the strings ala Modric!!

 

[Mr Pink]

Unless that attribute is what you need in a player in that position!
We don't need a wide attacker with no pace, no matter what else he does well because counter attacking is o important to the way we play.

I honestly think we missed Ades 1st touch and build up play more than hs goals when he was off form last season! We need a striker that can play alone and bring ppl into play, then have the vision to play our placement like Bale and Lennon in behind.

Something Benteke will definitely be able to do. And yeah he can pick a pass to.