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SC's Tactical Autopsy thread

Legend10

Well-Known Member
Jul 8, 2006
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I honestly have no idea how many sub appearances Defoe has made or Soldado.

I think you underplay the difference managers and coaches make. I think good coaches and managers make a big difference. I don't think ManU get anywhere near winning the title with that team if Ferguson wasn't there.

I think their will always be limitations to Allardyce's approach. And plenty of "percentage" teams get relegated too.


I don't underplay the significance of coaches and managers at all, what I said was I think you have an over elaborate idea of what happens in training. Managers have a massive influence over how well a team will do but the training ground is only one part of it and not the biggest part. The biggest part is actually emphasised most by our friend Spurs King who talks constantly about team building and he's right. Managers will decide on a system and style they want to play and it's usually based around their resources and quality of player that they can attract and recruit.

The clown for example at Liverpool has recruited 15 players in a year, this more than anything will or should determine how a side wants to play, at Liverpool it doesn't because he clearly doesn't know what he is doing and squad wise certainly they are weaker than when he started his net £64 million spree. He's now playing 4 CB's, 3 at the back, and god knows whatever else is going on there. He's bought all those players, spent all of that money and he has no clearly defined idea of what to do with them.

AVB on the other hand as an example has also been very active signing 15 players who are all or have been with the exception of Fryers key members of his match day squad and purchased with a system in mind and are players who have the ability and skill sets to play how he wants.

This is the most important area of management, get it right and you have every chance of succeeding whatever your targets are as long as they are realistic to your wage & transfer budgets, be it qualifying for Europe or staying in the league.

After this there are 2 main aspects, how you prepare your team for matches both individually and collectively. Instilling your own patterns of play and block work both in and out of possession. This is where most coaches although doing different things and requiring different things from their sides which is quite often determined by the ability at their disposal will work in a reasonably similar way and even do a lot of the same drills. Some will ask their players to play from defence more than others, some know they have better players than other teams so will work systems accordingly and some know they don't and will work accordingly to that. But players at clubs like Spurs for example don't train that much once the season is under way, usually limiting their sessions to short sharp affairs as they are always preparing for matches and nothing kills players like over training. The rest of the time is spent analysing opposition, how to expose them and how to defend against them but much of this is meeting based.

Finally of course is where Ferguson was King, which is getting your squad mentally tuned into immediate, short term and long term goals and the belief that you can instill in the players to achieve them.

I think some people over imagine what goes on at training grounds and have this grandiose view that some managers are turning ordinary players into Brazil out there whilst others are instructing their players to do no more than kick the shit out of the opposition.

Oh and as is famously touted Wenger does pretty much nothing on the training ground, he just buys players who naturally fit into his system of play, that's it nothing special, nothing ground breaking and nothing overly complicated!
 

Legend10

Well-Known Member
Jul 8, 2006
10,847
5,277
I disagree. There are managers who work quite differently. For example compare Everton's stats this season to last or any under Moyes. Martinez is one of the first of a modern breed of coaches who play a different game. Moyes is old school and is not capable of getting players to play this way, he will not be very successful at a top club. Mourinho I believe is now out of date with his tactics, he has not moved on as was shown at RM


Yes he does play differently, but the work on the training ground whilst being different won't be radically so, and Martinez has already changed half of his out field line up, which is the most significant factor in the changes.
 

Spurs_Bear

Well-Known Member
Jan 7, 2009
17,094
22,286
Big Ron: "What happened there Motty"

Motty: "Well, would you believe it, Spurs Bear tries to hit a 40 yard diagonal out of defence, trips over it and accidentally kicks it past his own keeper intot he path of the oncoming centre forward BC who flicks it up, does a couple of keepy uppies, loops it over his head and back heels into the empty net.

Don't be silly, you'd never press that high up the pitch, old man.
 

ClintEastwould

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2012
4,748
9,845
I have to say, Saturday was probably the least impressed I have been with AVB since he has been at the club. I know some of us find his subs a bit bemusing at the best of times, but the way he reacted (or didn't) to us being under the cosh in the second half is actually pretty worrying. He seemed to refuse to bring on that extra man in the middle of the park... Was he scared of the fans going ape shit or something at a 'negative' move?

i think he tried shoring up a bit with chadli as he tracks back more but that wasnt the area of the pitch we lost. we werent winning any second balls or 50 50s, we needed someone in the middle
 

sloth

Well-Known Member
Mar 7, 2005
9,018
6,900
He was, they actually won a trophy rather than 'the passing'.

Don't get all wet pants over it sloth, you're like me when you used to criticise Redknapp. If you think that getting relegated with a club that yo-yo up and down the league despite working with little money and having 8000 people through the door every week is failure then that's up to you. I can only hold my hands up and say we'll clearly never agree on that.

And I don't see what relevance what Sousa has done since has on anything.

It's the problem you stats only boys have you know, you don't look at football in real life terms enough.


I'm making the point that Swansea are head and shoulders above Wigan, they also won a cup, but they're tearing up half the PL too, and looking good in the EL. Whereas Wigan under Martinez, a much better resourced club than Swansea, had three years of relegation battles before finally succumbing last year.

It's a simple question, if Martinez is responsible for Swansea's success why couldn't he repeat the trick at Wigan?*


*If you don't know the answer fair enough, but don't resort to weasely politician style deflection tactics to try and avoid it.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
Not really if you watched the game, but don't tell BC.


That game was so typical Martinez. I'm amazed Everton aren't sponsored by Camelot. Winning or losing by 3-2 is technically called a Martinez. When you get dealt a 3 and a 2 in texas holdem it's called a Martinez.
 

Spurs_Bear

Well-Known Member
Jan 7, 2009
17,094
22,286
I'm making the point that Swansea are head and shoulders above Wigan, they also won a cup, but they're tearing up half the PL too, and looking good in the EL. Whereas Wigan under Martinez, a much better resourced club than Swansea, after three years of relegation battles before finally succumbing last year.

It's a simple question, if Martinez is responsible for Swansea's success why couldn't he repeat the trick at Wigan?*


*If you don't know the answer fair enough, but don't resort to weasely politician style deflection tactics to try and avoid it.

I'm not avoiding anything. Why couldn't Rodgers replicate his Swansea 'success' at Watford and Reading?

As I said, you stats behemoths don't take into account real football factors.

Swansea, with a full stadium, hostile crowd, playing beautiful football on a nice pitch, with a team of lower league players playing their best football but not likely (Leon Brittain for example) to be poached by bigger clubs etc etc amen.

Or...a stadium that gets 8000 people through it's doors, has nearly more away fans than it does home fans, played on a rugby pitch, with the best players hand picked by any of the bigger teams when they feel like it, and who have consistently yo-yo'd between the top league and the Championship and were not doing anything special when Martinez was appointed. And they won the FA Cup. I bet their fans were marginally happy with that, having beaten Man City in the final. That is success for a club like that no matter which way you want to spin it, or relate it to a coin toss or probability like you always do.

In my opinion, Martinez was a prick for taking the Wigan job in the first place, and I wouldn't expect them to come back up to the Premier League for a good few years (currently 13th). But I commend his balls for wanting to test himself, and he wasn't sacked, he was then approached by a respectable club and sits 1 point behind Rodgers in his second season at Liverpool having spent a net spend of circa £70m, mostly on shite, and kept hold of his best players.

Success for Wigan Athletic is winning an FA Cup, fuck me I'd call it success if AVB won an FA Cup for us. Relegation is part and parcel of a club like them.
 

Spurs_Bear

Well-Known Member
Jan 7, 2009
17,094
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That game was so typical Martinez. I'm amazed Everton aren't sponsored by Camelot. Winning or losing by 3-2 is technically called a Martinez. When you get dealt a 3 and a 2 in texas holdem it's called a Martinez.


Still beats being dealt a 'BC'...
 

dagraham

Well-Known Member
Sep 20, 2005
19,149
46,142
I really like Martinez. He's always been my favouirte non-spurs manager, partly for the way he conducts himself as much as anything else.

I also admire the way he continued to play football even though his team were scrappimg for relegation every year (and whilst having his best players routinely poached). That takes balls imo, even though he was at a club whose expectation was low. I'm pleased he's been given an opportunity at a bigger club.

Yes, he's got a whiff of plucky loser about him and his teams are suspect defensively but good luck to the guy.

Just as an aside, I do think that the PL should change the rules on loaned players between PL clubs. I know we benefited from it with Ade a couple of years ago but it doesn't feel right to me. I'm amazed that Chelsea allowed Lukaku to go but it wouldn't surprise me if they chose Everton ahead of others so Lukaku could contribute to depriving Chelsea's rivals from points.
 

sloth

Well-Known Member
Mar 7, 2005
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In terms of the Swansea team he apparently set such foundations under, of the team which Rodgers got promoted, three were players Martinez bought. Martinez took over a Swansea team which the year before had finished in the league one play-offs, he took them up as Champions, they then finished just outside the Championship play-offs and Martinez left for Wigan.

Is it your claim then that even though Martinez only spent a little over two seasons at Swansea, that by buying three of the players (Williams, Gower and Serran) of the Rodger's side promoted to the PL, and despite with a season between his departure and Rodgers arrival, it is in fact Martinez who should get the lion's share of the credit for Swansea's impressive PL performances?

And furthermore, you think that despite the fact that Wigan pre-Martinez finished 10th (51pts), 17th (38pts), 14th (40pts) and 11th (45pts), Martinez's record of 16th (36pts), 16th (42pts), 15th (43pts), 18th rel (36pts), is in fact evidence of a transformation in their fortunes, and a great success because in the year they were relegated they won the cup? Whereas Rodgers at Swansea who in his first year got them promoted to the PL, and in that year in the PL managed to play a highly effective possession based brand of football which saw them finish comfortably in 11th (47pts), was in fact the far less impressive manager?
 

Spurs_Bear

Well-Known Member
Jan 7, 2009
17,094
22,286
In terms of the Swansea team he apparently set such foundations under, of the team which Rodgers got promoted, three were players Martinez bought. Martinez took over a Swansea team which the year before had finished in the league one play-offs, he took them up as Champions, they then finished just outside the Championship play-offs and Martinez left for Wigan.

Is it your claim then that even though Martinez only spent a little over two seasons at Swansea, that by buying three of the players (Williams, Gower and Serran) of the Rodger's side promoted to the PL, and despite with a season between his departure and Rodgers arrival, it is in fact Martinez who should get the lion's share of the credit for Swansea's impressive PL performances?

And furthermore, you think that despite the fact that Wigan pre-Martinez finished 10th (51pts), 17th (38pts), 14th (40pts) and 11th (45pts), Martinez's record of 16th (36pts), 16th (42pts), 15th (43pts), 18th rel (36pts), is in fact evidence of a transformation in their fortunes, and a great success because in the year they were relegated they won the cup? Whereas Rodgers at Swansea who in his first year got them promoted to the PL, and in that year in the PL managed to play a highly effective possession based brand of football which saw them finish comfortably in 11th (47pts), was in fact the far less impressive manager?


Yes.

Next.
 

sloth

Well-Known Member
Mar 7, 2005
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6,900
I'm not avoiding anything. Why couldn't Rodgers replicate his Swansea 'success' at Watford and Reading?

As I said, you stats behemoths don't take into account real football factors.

Not avoiding and then you come up with the this?? Come on SB, you're better than that...

Just to avoid doubt though, Watford and Reading came before Swansea, therefore he couldn't possibly repeat his Swansea success, what he could do was develop and progress his ideas...
 

Mr Pink

SC Supporter
Aug 25, 2010
55,250
100,588
Rodgers really irritates me though, I do concede he's talented. The over praise of his players is so fecking tiring to listen to.
 

sloth

Well-Known Member
Mar 7, 2005
9,018
6,900
Yes.

Next.


Do you also believe in Astrology SB? And that global warming's a conspiracy of the Greens? And that the President of the Utd States is either an Al Qaida stooge, a lizard in disguise, or both?
 
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