SC's Tactical Autopsy thread

[Legend10]

Bad attempt at being facetious there...

Is it not pretty obvious what the likes of big Sam would probably be working on in the training ground most days? Hardly rocket science is it? Its reflected in their style of play week in week out. Ditto Pulis at Stoke.

It's not being facetious at all, it was a genuine question!

 

[Mr Pink]

It's not being facetious at all, it was a genuine question!

Ah ok, fair play!

Thought you were taking the piss lol

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Seriously BC how do you know what manager does what on the training ground?

I tell you what, watch Swansea and then watch West Ham and tell me you can't see the difference in what is being coached.

Barca and Bayern are so dominant that they have teams penned in all of the time so wouldn't be caught much, arsenal don't have a CF in Giroud who looks to get behind. Plus there's a difference being in the bottom third and bottom.

Does Soldado have a better scoring rate than a Defoe?

But we are trying to play a similar way, higher up the pitch, more ball in the final third and that, more than our CF is possibly why are having less offsides.

Yes he does.

 

[parklane1]

It's the problem you stats only boys have you know, you don't look at football in real life terms enough.

Football manager, FIFA etc have a lot to answer for.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I really, really have no idea why the thought of Martinez scares you 'rigid'. Without Martinez, Rodgers would be nothing.

Don't talk bollocks Bear, you don't achieve anything just by taking over someone's team. And Martinez's team didn't play exactly the same brand of football that Rodgers' did, which is maybe why he didn't get them promoted and Rodgers did, and why he couldn't keep Wigan out of the bottom three and Rodgers did keep Swansea out of the bottom of the table.

Martinez scares me because although his intentions are admirable I never watched a single game of his side that wasn't a complete and utter lottery, even when they were by far the better team.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

Don't talk bollocks Bear, you don't achieve anything just by taking over someone's team. And Martinez's team didn't play exactly the same brand of football that Rodgers' did, which is maybe why he didn't get them promoted and Rodgers did, and why he couldn't keep Wigan out of the bottom three and Rodgers did keep Swansea out of the bottom of the table.

Martinez scares me because although his intentions are admirable I never watched a single game of his side that wasn't a complete and utter lottery, even when they were by far the better team.

Oh don't talk shite Beece, fuck sake. That's just fanboy bollocks.

You've 'never' watched a game of his sides that wasn't a lottery? There's been at least 3 that have been against our own fucking side.

Done with this, not even Martinez's biggest fan but fuck me if I'm waving lyrical about the sunbed loving David Brent.

 

[Legend10]

Swansea were favourites for promotion when Rodgers took over there.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

PS Turn over and watch SS1 now. Not much of a lottery going on at the moment.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

Swansea were favourites for promotion when Rodgers took over there.

Probably irrelevant to Sean Connery fans.

 

[Legend10]

I tell you what, watch Swansea and then watch West Ham and tell me you can't see the difference in what is being coached.




But we are trying to play a similar way, higher up the pitch, more ball in the final third and that, more than our CF is possibly why are having less offsides.

Yes he does.

You know Defoe's numbers are seriously skewed because of the amount of cameo substitute appearances he has made but his numbers stack up against Soldado's all day long and in a harder league.

Regarding Swansea and West Ham, Allardyce is a percentages manager, he uses set pieces to keep them up, same as he did at Bolton. Swansea do play more football for sure but it's difficult to know how and what is instilled into players in training. Allardyce's ideal at West Ham would be to get the ball wide to Jarvis & Downing and then get crosses in to Carroll, it's a different way of playing but doesn't mean they're trying to kick the shit out of everybody, they have less talent than some teams so have to be competitive, whilst it might not be the same with Swansea a lot of it is down to resources.

Wigan tried to play and eventually lost their status, same with Blackpool & QPR. Allardyce just actually finds the right sort if balance with what resources he has available which is now considerably less than even the likes of Southampton.

But sometimes I think you over play the coaching aspect at this level, they're good players anyway, a lot more is done on patterns of play and block work. But that work won't be massively different through many clubs, the aim might be different but the work to achieve it will be similar.

 

[steve]

What were the possession stats for Saturday?

 

[idontgetit]

Excellent analysis article on the Chelsea game. Interesting points are the Soldado passing stats and the stats showing how many times Chelsea were caught offside. Really indicative of our high line tactics.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2013/09...mbinations-but-fail-to-adjust-defensive-line/

 

[ItsBoris]

Oh don't talk shite Beece, fuck sake. That's just fanboy bollocks.

You've 'never' watched a game of his sides that wasn't a lottery? There's been at least 3 that have been against our own fucking side.

Done with this, not even Martinez's biggest fan but fuck me if I'm waving lyrical about the sunbed loving David Brent.

Agree. Wigan dominated us at home a couple of times. Martinez is a top manager imo.

 

[idontgetit]

Also looking at the chelsea game stats, in the first half we got a lot of the ball out to the inside left and inside right position. The stats show a lot of interplay from us in those areas and us attacking the box from there. Second half the stats show us playing more narrow and often sideways across the middle of the pitch, we weren't finding players in the inside right and inside left holes and when we did get it there the ball wasn't then going in towards the box.​

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Interestingly chelsea didn't really make that many attacking passes in to our box, not successful ones anyway, in either half. It goes to show that our pressing system was actually very effective at shutting them out around the box. Most of the unease came from those threaded passes behind the high line.​

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Big concern would be that Chelsea won 22 out of 28 aerial duals and many of those in our half and final third. I think that made a big difference to how threatening they were. 17 out of 21 after our goal​

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The other good stat was that we had a rediculous amount of successful "take on's" all over the pitch. Assuming most of them were Dembele.​

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And fuck me, Dembele's player map shows he was the dogs bollocks. Everywhere, high pass completion, moved the ball out to the wide forward position, took on loads of players successfully​

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Erikson didn't get on the ball much and was non-existant in the 2nd half​

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The best of Townsends play came after Chelsea conceded but whilst we were still in the mood to attack which shows he's a real counterattacking player​

Naughton had 18 out of 21 successful passes in the first half, mainly moving the ball forwards up the wing. In the period between start of 2nd half and the red card- 5 passes. Walker made 3x the amount of passes in the same period. Show's were missing Rose at left back as when Naughton is under pressue he can't contribute to our passing game

Soldado didn't have one successful pass in the opponents half besides the assist in the first 45 mins. His only successful pass in the 2nd half was near the half way line and backwards. He lost all 3 aerial duals

Oscar barely got any of the ball in our half although he made a lot of passes into the box from the left byline, all unsuccessful

 

[ShelfSide18]

What were the possession stats for Saturday?

53-47 in our favour.

Obviously the last 10 we had all the ball, and maybe shaded the first half, but got dicked the second half. Nice ebb and flow of a game really, fascinating even though I think Mourinho 'won' the battle between the 2 coaches.

 

[Gedson100]

PS Turn over and watch SS1 now. Not much of a lottery going on at the moment.

Ha! Turned into one by the end though

 

[Bus-Conductor]

PS Turn over and watch SS1 now. Not much of a lottery going on at the moment.

Big Ron: "What happened there Motty"

Motty: "Well, would you believe it, Spurs Bear tries to hit a 40 yard diagonal out of defence, trips over it and accidentally kicks it past his own keeper intot he path of the oncoming centre forward BC who flicks it up, does a couple of keepy uppies, loops it over his head and back heels into the empty net.

 

[Spurs 1961]

You know Defoe's numbers are seriously skewed because of the amount of cameo substitute appearances he has made but his numbers stack up against Soldado's all day long and in a harder league.

Regarding Swansea and West Ham, Allardyce is a percentages manager, he uses set pieces to keep them up, same as he did at Bolton. Swansea do play more football for sure but it's difficult to know how and what is instilled into players in training. Allardyce's ideal at West Ham would be to get the ball wide to Jarvis & Downing and then get crosses in to Carroll, it's a different way of playing but doesn't mean they're trying to kick the shit out of everybody, they have less talent than some teams so have to be competitive, whilst it might not be the same with Swansea a lot of it is down to resources.

Wigan tried to play and eventually lost their status, same with Blackpool & QPR. Allardyce just actually finds the right sort if balance with what resources he has available which is now considerably less than even the likes of Southampton.

But sometimes I think you over play the coaching aspect at this level, they're good players anyway, a lot more is done on patterns of play and block work. But that work won't be massively different through many clubs, the aim might be different but the work to achieve it will be similar.

I disagree. There are managers who work quite differently. For example compare Everton's stats this season to last or any under Moyes. Martinez is one of the first of a modern breed of coaches who play a different game. Moyes is old school and is not capable of getting players to play this way, he will not be very successful at a top club. Mourinho I believe is now out of date with his tactics, he has not moved on as was shown at RM

 

[Bus-Conductor]

You know Defoe's numbers are seriously skewed because of the amount of cameo substitute appearances he has made but his numbers stack up against Soldado's all day long and in a harder league.

Regarding Swansea and West Ham, Allardyce is a percentages manager, he uses set pieces to keep them up, same as he did at Bolton. Swansea do play more football for sure but it's difficult to know how and what is instilled into players in training. Allardyce's ideal at West Ham would be to get the ball wide to Jarvis & Downing and then get crosses in to Carroll, it's a different way of playing but doesn't mean they're trying to kick the shit out of everybody, they have less talent than some teams so have to be competitive, whilst it might not be the same with Swansea a lot of it is down to resources.

Wigan tried to play and eventually lost their status, same with Blackpool & QPR. Allardyce just actually finds the right sort if balance with what resources he has available which is now considerably less than even the likes of Southampton.

But sometimes I think you over play the coaching aspect at this level, they're good players anyway, a lot more is done on patterns of play and block work. But that work won't be massively different through many clubs, the aim might be different but the work to achieve it will be similar.

I honestly have no idea how many sub appearances Defoe has made or Soldado.

I think you underplay the difference managers and coaches make. I think good coaches and managers make a big difference. I don't think ManU get anywhere near winning the title with that team if Ferguson wasn't there.

I think their will always be limitations to Allardyce's approach. And plenty of "percentage" teams get relegated too.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I disagree. There are managers who work quite differently. For example compare Everton's stats this season to last or any under Moyes. Martinez is one of the first of a modern breed of coaches who play a different game. Moyes is old school and is not capable of getting players to play this way, he will not be very successful at a top club. Mourinho I believe is now out of date with his tactics, he has not moved on as was shown at RM

I disagree with L10 too, but can't say I agree with your examples.

The Mourinho that won the championship in the same league as Barcelona the previous season ? I wouldn't write him off just yet.

I also think Martinez is flawed. I like coaches that value ball retention, but he has no idea about the other facets of the game, such as cohesive off the ball defensive work etc.