SC's Tactical Autopsy thread

[sloth]

Show me a manager who hasn't spent time abroad or entertained overseas managers at their own clubs? All managers and coaches do it, it's par for the course, nothing to get excited about at all, they've all been there done that and wear the badge.

As has been said before Swansea were promotion favourites when he went there and he didn't install there way of playing, he just stuck with it and then adapted it too a more defensive possession game in the Premiership, which as I have said is fair enough.

But managers at the bigger clubs ultimately succeed or fail due to their work in the transfer markets and this is where Rodgers is clueless! Aspas is quite possibly already the worst signing for £8 million in a Premier league history, he is a truly limited footballer who isn't worth even close to that sum, he's actually a joke. But Aspas aside a Rodgers has Spent a net £64 million at Liverpool and ended up with a worse and thinner squad than what he started with. And even with such a vast outlay and having recruited 15 of his own players ( no CM I might add this summer) to add to the likes of Suarez, Gerrard, Lucas & Agger he has no idea what system he wants to play and has offered up 3 different ones in their last 3 Prem games. A total lack of planning, foresight or reasoning what he's buying each player for.

He has no idea what he's doing in the transfer market and he's left Liverpool IMHO weaker than Everton and possibly one or two other surprise teams as well. But the biggest tell for me was watching Notts County football wise play a full strength team off the park at Anfield a few weeks ago. Despite Liverpool obviously having better players all over the pitch county completely out footballed them and only lost due to gassing.

A few undeserved results are currently papering over the Rodgers induced cracks at Liverpool and will continue to do so with Palace at home this weekend, but let's watch this space unfold!

First of all it's not so much the promotion but the manner of their performances once promoted for which Rodgers get's the plaudits, it's why he got the Liverpool job and Lambert ended up with Villa.

But on its own merits your argument doesn't stack very well. Swansea were not promotion favourites, they had finished outside the play-offs the year before, so there were at least three clubs in the division that had finished higher than them, then there was also the well resourced clubs coming out of the PL, not to mention all the richer, better funded clubs already in the division.

Secondly, they did much better that season under Rodgers than they had under Sousa or Martinez, achieving 3rd place with 80pts, a full 11pts more than Sousa had managed.

In terms of transfers, at Swansea Rodgers brought in Leon Britton (signed him back on for free) after Martinez passed on the opportunity to get him for Wigan, he also signed Scott Sinclair for £500k after Martinez passed on the opportunity (he played for Martinez on loan at Wigan) eventually selling him for £8m to City, he also bought and sold Danny Graham for a profit, and bought Routledge and Vorm for a combined £3.5m.

At Liverpool his signing of Sturridge, Mignolet and Coutinho look like bargains, however £25m combined on Joe Allen and Borini looks like wasted money. The jury's still out on some of this summer's signings and although I agree Aspas has looked like another Borini I wouldn't rule him out coming good yet.

 

[ShelfSide18]

Show me a manager who hasn't spent time abroad or entertained overseas managers at their own clubs? All managers and coaches do it, it's par for the course, nothing to get excited about at all, they've all been there done that and wear the badge.

As has been said before Swansea were promotion favourites when he went there and he didn't install there way of playing, he just stuck with it and then adapted it too a more defensive possession game in the Premiership, which as I have said is fair enough.

But managers at the bigger clubs ultimately succeed or fail due to their work in the transfer markets and this is where Rodgers is clueless! Aspas is quite possibly already the worst signing for £8 million in a Premier league history, he is a truly limited footballer who isn't worth even close to that sum, he's actually a joke. But Aspas aside a Rodgers has Spent a net £64 million at Liverpool and ended up with a worse and thinner squad than what he started with. And even with such a vast outlay and having recruited 15 of his own players ( no CM I might add this summer) to add to the likes of Suarez, Gerrard, Lucas & Agger he has no idea what system he wants to play and has offered up 3 different ones in their last 3 Prem games. A total lack of planning, foresight or reasoning what he's buying each player for.

He has no idea what he's doing in the transfer market and he's left Liverpool IMHO weaker than Everton and possibly one or two other surprise teams as well. But the biggest tell for me was watching Notts County football wise play a full strength team off the park at Anfield a few weeks ago. Despite Liverpool obviously having better players all over the pitch county completely out footballed them and only lost due to gassing.

A few undeserved results are currently papering over the Rodgers induced cracks at Liverpool and will continue to do so with Palace at home this weekend, but let's watch this space unfold!

I was more getting at the fact that he has shown an absolute desire to study and learn the game as opposed to a lot of other coaches, that includes visiting other countries and seeing how clubs are modelled and how they do things etc. I like this approach, he's a learner and there are a lot of coaches out there who simply aren't. They think simply playing the game means they know the game, Dalglish was like that - a journo questioned his tactics and he just replied, 'who did you play for?'.

I respect how Rodgers has built his way up, playing a passing brand of football not up and at 'em percentage bollocks.

As you say, we'll see how it goes with him, but I think he'll do well with Liverpool. Not as well as us with AVB, because I genuinely think we struck gold when we appointed that guy.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Show me a manager who hasn't spent time abroad or entertained overseas managers at their own clubs? All managers and coaches do it, it's par for the course, nothing to get excited about at all, they've all been there done that and wear the badge.

You accuse me of making statements on which I have no knowledge and come out with trite stuff like this. By time abroad he doesn't mean a week at the Shangrila Palace with Sandra.

How do you know which (let alone all) managers have been abroad and what exactly they have done ?

I can't see Redknapp going abroad and studying spanish language or training philosophies can you ? Or Pullis or Steve Bruce.

he just stuck with it and then adapted it too a more defensive possession game in the Premiership, which as I have said is fair enough.

How much of Swansea's championship football have you watched, honestly ? Is it genuinely enough to know what Rodgers did or didn't change. Did you watch any, honestly ? Because I sure as shit didn't. Surely however he adjusted it, was effective, so therefore justified and to be applauded. He didn't change from tippy tappy to route one stuff, he didn't sell his soul for a 5 minute hurrah in the EPl did he. He maintained their core philosophy of passing the ball, but clearly on paper they had one of the the weakest, if not the weakest squads in the EPL the season they came up. I don't know exactly how he modified the methods, but from watching plenty of them in the EPL, he certainly didn't sacrifice his belief in keeping possession of the ball and whatever he did was, by any standards, successful. So why denigrate it ?

But managers at the bigger clubs ultimately succeed or fail due to their work in the transfer markets and this is where Rodgers is clueless! Aspas is quite possibly already the worst signing for £8 million in a Premier league history, he is a truly limited footballer who isn't worth even close to that sum, he's actually a joke. But Aspas aside a Rodgers has Spent a net £64 million at Liverpool and ended up with a worse and thinner squad than what he started with. And even with such a vast outlay and having recruited 15 of his own players ( no CM I might add this summer) to add to the likes of Suarez, Gerrard, Lucas & Agger he has no idea what system he wants to play and has offered up 3 different ones in their last 3 Prem games. A total lack of planning, foresight or reasoning what he's buying each player for.

He has no idea what he's doing in the transfer market and he's left Liverpool IMHO weaker than Everton and possibly one or two other surprise teams as well. But the biggest tell for me was watching Notts County football wise play a full strength team off the park at Anfield a few weeks ago. Despite Liverpool obviously having better players all over the pitch county completely out footballed them and only lost due to gassing.

You keep going on like 64m is a huge investment. We've just spent nearly double that in one window. He's spent that in 3. Like we haven't spent big fees stupidly (Bent 17m, Bentley 15m, Pav 13m, Defoe 16m, Keane 16m). When you are way down the transfer pecking order you are mining for value, after all the big fish have fed. We know this and that's why we've ended up with some wankers that have taken years to shift sometimes. You take a punt sometimes on a player and for 8m if it works great if not, and you are Liverpool, it's not going to kill you as long as you don't do it too often, and as long as you are covering your arse with successful transfers too. Which with signings like Suarez, Enrique, Skyrtle, Coutinhp, Sturridge, Mignolet, Sakho they have done OK. Most of those signings were made under Rodgers? Sturridge for 13m, doesn't look terrible value compared to Soldado for 26 does he ?

Time will tell, and he will lose my empathy if he subverts his previous methodology and switches to a more pragmatic approach, but so far I really don't see the validity in much of your criticisms of him.

 

[Legend10]

First of all it's not so much the promotion but the manner of their performances once promoted for which Rodgers get's the plaudits, it's why he got the Liverpool job and Lambert ended up with Villa.

But on its own merits your argument doesn't stack very well. Swansea were not promotion favourites, they had finished outside the play-offs the year before, so there were at least three clubs in the division that had finished higher than them, then there was also the well resourced clubs coming out of the PL, not to mention all the richer, better funded clubs already in the division.

Secondly, they did much better that season under Rodgers than they had under Sousa or Martinez, achieving 3rd place with 80pts, a full 11pts more than Sousa had managed.

In terms of transfers, at Swansea Rodgers brought in Leon Britton (signed him back on for free) after Martinez passed on the opportunity to get him for Wigan, he also signed Scott Sinclair for £500k after Martinez passed on the opportunity (he played for Martinez on loan at Wigan) eventually selling him for £8m to City, he also bought and sold Danny Graham for a profit, and bought Routledge and Vorm for a combined £3.5m.

At Liverpool his signing of Sturridge, Mignolet and Coutinho look like bargains, however £25m combined on Joe Allen and Borini looks like wasted money. The jury's still out on some of this summer's signings and although I agree Aspas has looked like another Borini I wouldn't rule him out coming good yet.

I'm pretty sure Swansea were favourites for promotion when he went there but if you say not then I will bow to your superior knowledge.

But what can't be doubted is that Rodgers didn't instill a new playing style or philosophy at Swansea, he merely carried on what Martinez and Sousa implemented before him. In fact Swansea's chairman is in record as saying that he wouldn't accept the club changing style and that he had made that clear to both Sousa and Rodgers prior to their appointments.

As for transfers, what you do at Swansea in the Championship has new relevance IMHO to what you do at Liverpool, but he also signed some dogs at Swansea as well, but hey so what. As for how they played in the Premiership I have already acknowledged that their defensive possession style worked well for them, and even better that Laudrup has managed to turn it into a more offensive possession style of football.

 

[ShelfSide18]

I'm pretty sure Swansea were favourites for promotion when he went there but if you say not then I will bow to your superior knowledge.

But what can't be doubted is that Rodgers didn't instill a new playing style or philosophy at Swansea, he merely carried on what Martinez and Sousa implemented before him. In fact Swansea's chairman is in record as saying that he wouldn't accept the club changing style and that he had made that clear to both Sousa and Rodgers prior to their appointments.

As for transfers, what you do at Swansea in the Championship has new relevance IMHO to what you do at Liverpool, but he also signed some dogs at Swansea as well, but hey so what. As for how they played in the Premiership I have already acknowledged that their defensive possession style worked well for them, and even better that Laudrup has managed to turn it into a more offensive possession style of football.

Has anyone claimed that Rodgers implemented that at Swansea? No, that was their way and they recruited him because he fitted the profile, they didn't recruit him and tell him that this was how they wanted things done. Just like when Wenger goes they're not going to go to Tony Pulis and ask him to maintain the club philosophy are they!

I think Swansea's possession under Rodgers, mainly in the defensive and middle thirds was a far more watchable tactic than sitting deep, hitting the channels, playing for percentages and set plays, and far less naive than say Holloway's Blackpool, who gave it a go which should be applauded, but god they couldn't defend. What Rodgers did was minimise the lottery element of the game, although in football you can never truly rid the lottery from the game which is it's great appeal.

Rodgers established them, Laudrup came in and progressed them further. Swansea are an example of how to run and progress a football club.

 

[Legend10]

You accuse me of making statements on which I have no knowledge and come out with trite stuff like this. By time abroad he doesn't mean a week at the Shangrila Palace with Sandra.

How do you know which (let alone all) managers have been abroad and what exactly they have done ?

I can't see Redknapp going abroad and studying spanish language or training philosophies can you ? Or Pullis or Steve Bruce.




How much of Swansea's championship football have you watched, honestly ? Is it genuinely enough to know what Rodgers did or didn't change. Did you watch any, honestly ? Because I sure as shit didn't. Surely however he adjusted it, was effective, so therefore justified and to be applauded. He didn't change from tippy tappy to route one stuff, he didn't sell his soul for a 5 minute hurrah in the EPl did he. He maintained their core philosophy of passing the ball, but clearly on paper they had one of the the weakest, if not the weakest squads in the EPL the season they came up. I don't know exactly how he modified the methods, but from watching plenty of them in the EPL, he certainly didn't sacrifice his belief in keeping possession of the ball and whatever he did was, by any standards, successful. So why denigrate it ?




You keep going on like 64m is a huge investment. We've just spent nearly double that in one window. He's spent that in 3. Like we haven't spent big fees stupidly (Bent 17m, Bentley 15m, Pav 13m, Defoe 16m, Keane 16m). When you are way down the transfer pecking order you are mining for value, after all the big fish have fed. We know this and that's why we've ended up with some wankers that have taken years to shift sometimes. You take a punt sometimes on a player and for 8m if it works great if not, and you are Liverpool, it's not going to kill you as long as you don't do it too often, and as long as you are covering your arse with successful transfers too. Which with signings like Suarez, Enrique, Skyrtle, Coutinhp, Sturridge, Mignolet, Sakho they have done OK. Most of those signings were made under Rodgers? Sturridge for 13m, doesn't look terrible value compared to Soldado for 26 does he ?

Time will tell, and he will lose my empathy if he subverts his previous methodology and switches to a more pragmatic approach, but so far I really don't see the validity in much of your criticisms of him.

I would lay a pound to a penny that the likes of Bruce and Pulis have spent time at clubs overseas seeing how they work, without doubt. Why would you say not, because they have in the main been at small budget clubs without a great deal of talent at their disposal? They may even have spent better time than the week Rodgers spent with don't laugh but Steve McLaren at FC Twente!

It's just a thing that managers and coaches do, spend time at other clubs watching and assessing, they would be foolish not to. Or are we supposed to believe that Rodgers is some sort if revolutionary in this?

I watched precisely zero of Swansea's football in the Championship, not a single minute if it. However I do know that they have a chairman who is adamant that all managers there play a possession style of football initiated by Martinez or there's no job, simple as that. And I haven't ever denigrated it other than call it a defensive possession style of play, what I have said is that it wasn't a style he introduced, it was a style he inherited and a style his chairman made it clear publicly from the outset that he wouldn't accept a change if style.

As for the £64 million, it's a net total, he has spent much more that that and net £64 million in 12 months and to me that is a huge investment. And regarding his work in the transfer market at Liverpool I would say he's spent £60 million on dross in 3 windows and done well with Sturridge, Mignolet (although he doesn't fit his supposed philosophy at all) and personally I don't think he gad anything to do with the Coutinho signing, can't explain why I just don't think he did.

All of those players that we've signed for me were also by managers who were very poor transfer market operators, so what can I say!

Let's see how the Rodgers affair continues at Liverpool but I know where my money is and it wouldn't be on them finishing in the top 6 this season and it wouldn't be on him being there this time next year.

 

[Legend10]

Has anyone claimed that Rodgers implemented that at Swansea? No, that was their way and they recruited him because he fitted the profile, they didn't recruit him and tell him that this was how they wanted things done. Just like when Wenger goes they're not going to go to Tony Pulis and ask him to maintain the club philosophy are they!

I think Swansea's possession under Rodgers, mainly in the defensive and middle thirds was a far more watchable tactic than sitting deep, hitting the channels, playing for percentages and set plays, and far less naive than say Holloway's Blackpool, who gave it a go which should be applauded, but god they couldn't defend. What Rodgers did was minimise the lottery element of the game, although in football you can never truly rid the lottery from the game which is it's great appeal.

Rodgers established them, Laudrup came in and progressed them further. Swansea are an example of how to run and progress a football club.

How on earth do you know what instructions the Swansea board gave him when they appointed him and your assertion certainly flies in the face of what their chairman said at the time in that it was emphasised that they had to play to a certain style?

And yes I think plenty of people do intimate that the Swansea style was down to Rodgers, well actually it wasn't. It was down in the main to Martinez and then the board who liked it do much insisting upon appointing Sousa and Rodgers that it wouldn't be changed. I could see it being different with Laudrup as I'm not sure the Swans chairman would risk not getting such a name by laying down the law but it seems Laudrup has taken a base and greatly enhanced it.

But for the record I'll say yet again I don't have a problem with the defensive possession game that Swansea under Rodgers played in the Premiership, I hope I don't have to type that again!

 

[al_pacino]

I can't see Redknapp going abroad and studying spanish language or training philosophies can you ? Or Pullis or Steve Bruce.

Tony Pulis http://www1.skysports.com/football/...Pulis-planned-for-future-before-Stoke-sacking

"I went out and saw Bilbao and was very, very impressed with their set-up.

"I was interested in the way Marcelo Bielsa trained and worked their lads.
"It was a similar story in Germany. I went over to Leverkusen who were overachieving in the German league.

 

[ShelfSide18]

How on earth do you know what instructions the Swansea board gave him when they appointed him and your assertion certainly flies in the face of what their chairman said at the time in that it was emphasised that they had to play to a certain style?

And yes I think plenty of people do intimate that the Swansea style was down to Rodgers, well actually it wasn't. It was down in the main to Martinez and then the board who liked it do much insisting upon appointing Sousa and Rodgers that it wouldn't be changed. I could see it being different with Laudrup as I'm not sure the Swans chairman would risk not getting such a name by laying down the law but it seems Laudrup has taken a base and greatly enhanced it.

But for the record I'll say yet again I don't have a problem with the defensive possession game that Swansea under Rodgers played in the Premiership, I hope I don't have to type that again!

No the point is when you are recruiting you look for someone who fits the philosophy, you don't just grab any old someone. Of course Swansea want to play a certain way, and they are going to do their best to recruit coaches who fit that way, as Rodgers did. They may have said to him, this is our way, we know it's your way, please don't change that not even to go after short term results.

If people intimate that, then they should learn a little more about Swansea I suspect.

Your last point... great, although I'm pretty sure you have heavily criticised that style in the past, but fair doos.

 

[Legend10]

No the point is when you are recruiting you look for someone who fits the philosophy, you don't just grab any old someone. Of course Swansea want to play a certain way, and they are going to do their best to recruit coaches who fit that way, as Rodgers did. They may have said to him, this is our way, we know it's your way, please don't change that not even to go after short term results.

If people intimate that, then they should learn a little more about Swansea I suspect.

Your last point... great, although I'm pretty sure you have heavily criticised that style in the past, but fair doos.

I haven't criticised it, I've always called it a 'defensive' possession game, designed firstly to stop the other team and attacking as secondary.

What I have argued is when people have tried to say it wasn't designed as a defence first way of playing.

 

[only1waddle]

I would lay a pound to a penny that the likes of Bruce and Pulis have spent time at clubs overseas seeing how they work, without doubt. Why would you say not, because they have in the main been at small budget clubs without a great deal of talent at their disposal? They may even have spent better time than the week Rodgers spent with don't laugh but Steve McLaren at FC Twente!


Not the most positive tactician managerially, but it is widely accepted that Mclaren is one of the best training ground coaches around, so possibly a week well spent by Rodgers.

 

[Huddlestone22]

Tony Pulis http://www1.skysports.com/football/...Pulis-planned-for-future-before-Stoke-sacking

Good on him tbh, he'd probably be a really good manager when he sorts out a team with the right philosophy. A lot more British managers need to go out and experience other football cultures to improve our level of quality of coaches and in turn developing players.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Tony Pulis http://www1.skysports.com/football/...Pulis-planned-for-future-before-Stoke-sacking

Fair do's, good find. I like what he's saying, he may have liked the structure of those clubs, but the football Stoke played was never in the same universe at Atletico under Bielsa or Leverkusen.

Wonder why he wasn't given more time to implement his plan ?

 

[sloth]

Nice, if obvious, appraisal of the Chelsea game from Micheal Cox: http://www.zonalmarking.net/2013/09...mbinations-but-fail-to-adjust-defensive-line/

 

[al_pacino]

Nice, if obvious, appraisal of the Chelsea game from Micheal Cox: http://www.zonalmarking.net/2013/09...mbinations-but-fail-to-adjust-defensive-line/

For a change.

I do agree with his point on the Dembele/Paulinho combination. Against quality opposition you need someone with genuine defensive instincts..

 

[Bus-Conductor]

For a change.

I do agree with his point on the Dembele/Paulinho combination. Against quality opposition you need someone with genuine defensive instincts..

To be fair Paulinho did Ok as part of a CM2 against Spain for Brazil. But I do agree, for me Sandro and a 433 would have been my preference.

Or even just Sandro in the CM2

 

[sloth]

For a change.

I do agree with his point on the Dembele/Paulinho combination. Against quality opposition you need someone with genuine defensive instincts..

The argument against the way we played against Arsenal was that we were pretty solid, and mostly controlled the possession and the territory, but that without a cutting edge we left ourselves vulnerable if we went behind. Against Chelsea though we had gone ahead,, precisely what was required at that point was to control territory and possession, which is why it's frustrating that AVB didn't use the subs to try and achieve that!

 

[spurs9]

To be fair Paulinho did Ok as part of a CM2 against Spain for Brazil. But I do agree, for me Sandro and a 433 would have been my preference.

Or even just Sandro in the CM2

Paulinho had a midfield partner with "genuine defensive instincts" in Gustavo when playing against Spain.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Paulinho had a midfield partner with "genuine defensive instincts" in Gustavo when playing against Spain.

True enough. Still, Paulinho was very disciplined defensively in all the games. But again, I wouldn't have complained if Sandro was played in Saturday's game.

 

[Spurs1960]

What they don't show is whether those events you've listed are related or not. I think the assertion that they are is hugely problematic.

Btw, and this is directed at BC as much as you, I think BC's pretty one-eyed when it comes to certain players, so that I remember him over-looking the numerous brain-farts Palacios seemed to have in dangerous positions, far more dangerous and numerous than Walker's imo, and yet quote statistics about the over all contribution Palacios made (I agreed with him in general about Palacios, but didn't over-look his errors either.). However with Walker it seems to be the other way around.

Basically I think every player makes errors, or does good stuff, but if we had a TV which usually switched off when something good was done, but rarely when something bad, we'd think he was worse than he was, vice versa and we'd think he's better, and on some players that's how I think BC's brain works.

Sorry BC, I know you think what I'm saying is unfair and it's an old argument between us, and maybe it is unfair, but it's also what I think.

He's very one-eyed. Delighted to see the hopeless Dawson has been offered and signed a new 3 year contract, which of course he wouldn't be offered under the BC regime. AVB must be hopping mad!