Racism in management

[BehindEnemyLines]

Perhaps this is more to do with the skillset required to be a successful manager being very different to that of being a successful player, which may go some way to explain why many top managers were actually quite mediocre players........... being a big lump that can move fast and stand in a line with 3 other defenders isn't really a requirement for motivating, coaching and inspiring. There appears to be an assumption that just because you're an ex-player you'll make a good manager, when the reality is quite different.

 

[SargeantMeatCurtains]

Racism in management is a fucking myth.

Sick of this shit.

 

[InOffMeLeftShin]

Perhaps this is more to do with the skillset required to be a successful manager being very different to that of being a successful player, which may go some way to explain why many top managers were actually quite mediocre players........... being a big lump that can move fast and stand in a line with 3 other defenders isn't really a requirement for motivating, coaching and inspiring. There appears to be an assumption that just because you're an ex-player you'll make a good manager, when the reality is quite different.

I'd suggest it is exactly this. I've felt the same way for quite a long time and it makes perfect sense. In fact it is like a management system anywhere, usually managers and directors aren't coming through from the production line (although of course some do) but ordinarily they study and go through a different route to upper management. Does it mean that they aren't qualified to run a production line, just because they've never been hands on? of course not, they are better developed to run production through advanced methods.

The same goes for football management. It is fairly clear in the 21st century that you don't need to have played football at the highest level to be a competent manager, coaches like Wenger, Mourinho and Villas-Boas highlight that (plenty of other examples of non-players or at least players who never reached the highest echelons of the game). The fact is that those coaches have learnt far more about analysis, coaching methods, nutritional, fitness, conditioning etc. They are often well educated, well spoken, able to get across more complex strategies and come across well with media.

There are far fewer players who played at the very top of the game in management now and those that are and have been successful have something extra about them, they either reached the level they did in football through hard work and picking up lots of tactical aspects of the game or they were technical visionaries with charisma who not only could inspire the players they work with but can translate high level footballing concepts that they were a part of during their playing career (I'm thinking of players like Guardiola, Hoddle, Cruyff, Rijkaard etc.)

I struggle to think of a top class manager that has come from playing whose style of play was built around power and physical presence. My guess is that during their development as a player they were always dominant in every age group and so they were less inclined to absorb tactical and technical knowledge as they simply didn't need to. I'm sure there is the odd one, but I think that certainly has more to do with it.

I think that the lack of black coaches is more to do with that than the colour of their skin but there is no reason that they can't fall into one of the above categories of players that do make it. Hughton was a hard worker and picked up a lot both during his playing career and then as clipboard Chris before his first management position. Coaches like Rijkaard and Gullit got top jobs as they knew the technical sides of the game and brought extra charisma (I can imagine Seedorf being able to forge a similar career if he so wished). Campbell though has the charisma of a plank, is a fruit loop and almost certainly dominated opposition physically at every level of his career. I doubt very much whether he has any of the skills to be a coach and just because he had a successful career as a player definitely doesn't give him the right to have a coaching job.

 

[Shanks]

I read the article and he as good as accused the FA of racism because they gave Gary Neville the job instead of him, in who's world would anyone choose him over Gary Neville ffs? the arrogance of the man is beyond belief.
Basically it was the same old Campbell stuff.....me me me me me!

I'm not sure if it's been posted, but I believe it is very relevant.

Gary Neville tweeted the other day something along the lines of..

Ex professionals, who remain out of the game for years, then suddenly expect to be given a top job - work hard from the off, not stay out and expect it to come to you.

WHich I now understand why he tweeted what he did.

What Gary Neville has done, is gone out and got badges, and continues to do so - he remains firmly within football, he is working hard for it - he is coaching for England, and doing TV work, Michael Owen another one - retired, but stayed right in the game in some form or another. Danny Murphy also.

Ian Wright - always on a football show, within the game.

There are options there, and seriously - Gary 'fucking' Neville - probably one of the games biggest ****s when he played, boring as fuck, ugly fucker too - he proved so many people wrong by his non-biased punditry - he has been a breath of fresh air, and certianly has the qualities to be a good manager one day.

Bottom line is - work hard. Life is a bitch, and when you get knocked down, you get straight back up and work harder - not bitch and moan and find excuses for your own failures.

 

[CowInAComa]

Sol Campbell is not a victim of racism. He is a victim of people not liking ****s.

 

[Mullers]

Hmm difficult one this because I have to put aside my dislike of Campbell, he does come across as a stuck up, arrogant guy and look at what he is saying. I read the guardian article, I think first of all he was totally out of order, to bring Neville into his argument.

Suddenly, Gary Neville pops up as assistant manager. It's obvious they want nice people who won't cause them any problems. I put out an olive branch and it got broken, but whatever, I'm ready to move on."

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/sep/27/sol-campbell-racism-manager-arsenal

Well yeah the FA has always been that way, but nothing wrong with being nice, Gary Neville comes across as a nice guy and he seems to have the ability to go with it, so players respond to that. While Campbell strikes me as the kind of person who would have Glenn Hoddle type man management skills. Also obviously still bitter about the abuse he gets for moving to Arsenal on a free etc.

However I do think it is being naive of some people to suggest that there is no racism in football management because a handful of black players have got jobs. There is no industry completely devoid of racism, so I can well believe that there are people who get passed over because they aren't the right colour, it's a society problem not just a football problem. Obviously there have been a lot of improvements but there is always going to be racism there.

I also watched the Brian Deane interview as well, good interview.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22078633

 

[worcestersauce]

Hmm difficult one this because I have to put aside my dislike of Campbell, he does come across as a stuck up, arrogant guy and look at what he is saying. I read the guardian article, I think first of all he was totally out of order, to bring Neville into his argument.


http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/sep/27/sol-campbell-racism-manager-arsenal

Well yeah the FA has always been that way, but nothing wrong with being nice, Gary Neville comes across as a nice guy and he seems to have the ability to go with it, so players respond to that. While Campbell strikes me as the kind of person who would have Glenn Hoddle type man management skills. Also obviously still bitter about the abuse he gets for moving to Arsenal on a free etc.

However I do think it is being naive of some people to suggest that there is no racism in football management because a handful of black players have got jobs. There is no industry completely devoid of racism, so I can well believe that there are people who get passed over because they aren't the right colour, it's a society problem not just a football problem. Obviously there have been a lot of improvements but there is always going to be racism there.

I also watched the Brian Deane interview as well, good interview.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22078633

I think I'm with you mullers but its going to be a tough nut to crack unfortunately clubs are now multi million pound organisations now so the likelihood of any club taking a chance on an unknown is pretty small.
I think the only way black ex players are going to get there is via the assistant coach route like Chris Hughon. Its another reason I want his success, to blaze that trail.

 

[dontcallme]

Hmm difficult one this because I have to put aside my dislike of Campbell, he does come across as a stuck up, arrogant guy and look at what he is saying. I read the guardian article, I think first of all he was totally out of order, to bring Neville into his argument.


http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/sep/27/sol-campbell-racism-manager-arsenal

Well yeah the FA has always been that way, but nothing wrong with being nice, Gary Neville comes across as a nice guy and he seems to have the ability to go with it, so players respond to that. While Campbell strikes me as the kind of person who would have Glenn Hoddle type man management skills. Also obviously still bitter about the abuse he gets for moving to Arsenal on a free etc.

However I do think it is being naive of some people to suggest that there is no racism in football management because a handful of black players have got jobs. There is no industry completely devoid of racism, so I can well believe that there are people who get passed over because they aren't the right colour, it's a society problem not just a football problem. Obviously there have been a lot of improvements but there is always going to be racism there.

I also watched the Brian Deane interview as well, good interview.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22078633

Thanks for that. Deane came across really well in that interview. Like Hughton he hasn't let the difficulties of getting into management make him simply blame the race card rather than try other routes.

Iffy Onuora, Paul Ince, Chris Powell and Kamara all got lower league positions as their first management job. It can be done.

 

[Mullers]

I think I'm with you mullers but its going to be a tough nut to crack unfortunately clubs are now multi million pound organisations now so the likelihood of any club taking a chance on an unknown is pretty small.
I think the only way black ex players are going to get there is via the assistant coach route like Chris Hughon. Its another reason I want his success, to blaze that trail.

I would hope that isn't the only route, it's a good route, that many people use but they should be able to use exactly the amount of routes that white folk can use.
I agree that those clubs at the top of the tree, don't want to take chances on unknown what ever colour they are but for those at bottom end of the scale that can't afford the best, there should be more opportunities there. I suspect there is more racism the lower down the scale you go.

 

[Mullers]

Thanks for that. Deane came across really well in that interview. Like Hughton he hasn't let the difficulties of getting into management make him simply blame the race card rather than try other routes.

Iffy Onuora, Paul Ince, Chris Powell and Kamara all got lower league positions as their first management job. It can be done.

Yeah I think he didn't want to say that he wasn't getting the opportunity because of his colour but I think it's a view he would express privately. I would agree that someone shouldn't just give up and try other routes, but I do think it's a good thing that people complain because it draws attention to the problem.

 

[dontcallme]

Yeah I think he didn't want to say that he wasn't getting the opportunity because of his colour but I think it's a view he would express privately. I would agree that someone shouldn't just give up and try other routes, but I do think it's a good thing that people complain because it draws attention to the problem.

From what Deane was saying I don't believe it is solely down to race.

I'd be interested to hear for every management job available how many people apply for it and what different ethic groups the applicants are from.

I want to know how many aspiring black coaches have actually got their coaching badges.

I want to know how many positions are filled on the basis of recommendations rather than simple, open applications.

We need a fuller picture of the situation. Campbell has given a terrible example whereas Brian Deane has clearly gone about getting into management in the right way.

 

[Mullers]

From what Deane was saying I don't believe it is solely down to race.

I'd be interested to hear for every management job available how many people apply for it and what different ethic groups the applicants are from.

I want to know how many aspiring black coaches have actually got their coaching badges.

I want to know how many positions are filled on the basis of recommendations rather than simple, open applications.

We need a fuller picture of the situation. Campbell has given a terrible example whereas Brian Deane has clearly gone about getting into management in the right way.

Not soley down to race but it plays a part, it doesn't matter how small a part it is. No one's colour should interfere with them getting a job. And agree that Campbell explained himself poorly, like I said he comes across as arrogant, like the world owes him a living.

 

[dontcallme]

Not soley down to race but it plays a part, it doesn't matter how small a part it is. No one's colour should interfere with them getting a job. And agree that Campbell explained himself poorly, like I said he comes across as arrogant, like the world owes him a living.

Sure but like I say you have to look at the real situation. Look at it from all angles. It's hard to do as we have little information.

If for every management position going there are 30 applicants and 1 of them is black what is the likelihood of the black guy getting the job? If he doesn't is it due to his race?

What is the criteria for a chairman hiring a new manager? If most are looking for experience then any new manager is going to find it hard to get a job.

Of the new managers getting a job how did they get the job? If mostly promoting from within then it's going to be hard for Campbell, Deane, Wright etc to become a manager as they haven't worked as a coach for a professional club. Hughton and Connor did and it let to a management job.

Saying race shouldn't interfere with getting a job is simplistic and doesn't address the issues. People really need to look into it much deeper than race.

 

[Mullers]

Sure but like I say you have to look at the real situation. Look at it from all angles. It's hard to do as we have little information.

If for every management position going there are 30 applicants and 1 of them is black what is the likelihood of the black guy getting the job? If he doesn't is it due to his race?

What is the criteria for a chairman hiring a new manager? If most are looking for experience then any new manager is going to find it hard to get a job.

Of the new managers getting a job how did they get the job? If mostly promoting from within then it's going to be hard for Campbell, Deane, Wright etc to become a manager as they haven't worked as a coach for a professional club. Hughton and Connor did and it let to a management job.

Every case has to be judged by it's merits, I think it's something that a outside body can look into. It's a subject that comes up every now and again. I've seen a number of people speak about over the years, they can't be all playing the race card or have chips on their shoulders. Not a comment aimed at you btw.

Saying race shouldn't interfere with getting a job is simplistic and doesn't address the issues. People really need to look into it much deeper than race.

It's simplistic but true, racism doesn't have to stop someone from getting a job but it's an issue that will always be around and needs to be addressed.

 

[dontcallme]

Every case has to be judged by it's merits, I think it's something that a outside body can look into. It's a subject that comes up every now and again. I've seen a number of people speak about over the years, they can't be playing all playing the race card or have chips on their shoulders. Not a comment aimed at you btw.

I agree. It's what I've been saying since the beginning. Each case needs to be judged on its merits and its a subject that needs to be looked into.

Clark Carlisle did a program a while back on racism in football, not just management. Unfortunately it wasn't very good. The only example he got of a manager was Barnes who argued that being black meant he wasn't given much time. Completely ignored the fact that he was doing terrible for Celtic. Celtic never give managers much time if they are doing that badly.

He touched on one very interesting point. The only county captain in the country to not be on a professional team's book was an Asian player. The muppet decided not to look further into that.

I'd really like someone to research further into the issue and ask tough questions.

Is the hiring of manager's part of the old boy's club? Southgate got a job without any qualifications. Pearce, Hodgson and Mclaren are yes men within the FA and got jobs they aren't good enough for.

Also the questions I asked in my previous post.

It's simplistic but true, racism doesn't have to stop someone from getting a job but it's an issue that will always be around and needs to be addressed.

It will always be around. I believe, I might be wrong, that the reason black manager's aren't getting a chance is not because chairmen have a prejudice and genuinely think "a black man can't do this job."

I think there are other factors around much bigger than race but the race card is easier to use and identify.

That being said, it is a horrible situation that for all the progress we've made the likes of Les Ferdinand and others think they are fighting a lost cause in their aspiration to become football managers.

 

[Mullers]

I agree. It's what I've been saying since the beginning. Each case needs to be judged on its merits and its a subject that needs to be looked into.

Clark Carlisle did a program a while back on racism in football, not just management. Unfortunately it wasn't very good. The only example he got of a manager was Barnes who argued that being black meant he wasn't given much time. Completely ignored the fact that he was doing terrible for Celtic. Celtic never give managers much time if they are doing that badly.

He touched on one very interesting point. The only county captain in the country to not be on a professional team's book was an Asian player. The muppet decided not to look further into that.

I'd really like someone to research further into the issue and ask tough questions.

Is the hiring of manager's part of the old boy's club? Southgate got a job without any qualifications. Pearce, Hodgson and Mclaren are yes men within the FA and got jobs they aren't good enough for.

Also the questions I asked in my previous post.




It will always be around. I believe, I might be wrong, that the reason black manager's aren't getting a chance is not because chairmen have a prejudice and genuinely think "a black man can't do this job."

I think there are other factors around much bigger than race but the race card is easier to use and identify.

That being said, it is a horrible situation that for all the progress we've made the likes of Les Ferdinand and others think they are fighting a lost cause in their aspiration to become football managers.

You might find this thread interesting.
http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/index.php?threads/lack-of-black-managers-coaches.32606/

I said in that thread John Barnes only got one chance and that was his lot, no more chances. There are plenty of white managers who are shit but they get a second chance. It will be interesting to see what happens with Ince if he fails in the Blackburn job.

 

[dontcallme]

You might find this thread interesting.
http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/index.php?threads/lack-of-black-managers-coaches.32606/

I said in that thread John Barnes only got one chance and that was his lot, no more chances. There are plenty of white managers who are shit but they get a second chance. It will be interesting to see what happens with Ince if he fails in the Blackburn job.

John Barnes did get another chance. He took over at Tranmere where him and Jason Mcateer got dubbed "dumb and dumber." They did terrible and got sacked. Worst win percentage of any manager in the last 25 years for Tranmere.

Ince did a good job at Macclesfield and left after less than a year to take over MK Dons. A year later he took over Blackburn, a stable Prem club, and took them to bottom. He cited lack of financial backing as the reason for poor performance when fired.

He then went back to MK Dons where he took them to mid-table in League One then left. He took over Notts County and left after less than a season when he lost 9 in a row.

He then got the Blackpool job. A decent Championship club. Surprising he got this job after doing terribly in his last job, average the job before and terribly the job before that.

Can't believe anyone can use Ince as an example of racism in management. He has been given more chances than he has earnt.

 

[Mullers]

John Barnes did get another chance. He took over at Tranmere where him and Jason Mcateer got dubbed "dumb and dumber." They did terrible and got sacked. Worst win percentage of any manager in the last 25 years for Tranmere.

Ince did a good job at Macclesfield and left after less than a year to take over MK Dons. A year later he took over Blackburn, a stable Prem club, and took them to bottom. He cited lack of financial backing as the reason for poor performance when fired.

He then went back to MK Dons where he took them to mid-table in League One then left. He took over Notts County and left after less than a season when he lost 9 in a row.

He then got the Blackpool job. A decent Championship club. Surprising he got this job after doing terribly in his last job, average the job before and terribly the job before that.

Can't believe anyone can use Ince as an example of racism in management. He has been given more chances than he has earnt.

He was sacked after 6 days, I'm not saying he's any good, but six days?
Also I wasn't using Ince as an example, I was just showing you what I said back in 2008.

 

[dontcallme]

He was sacked after 6 days, I'm not saying he's any good, but six days?
Also I wasn't using Ince as an example, I was just showing you what I said back in 2008.

Who got sacked after 6 days?

 

[Mullers]

Who got sacked after 6 days?

Sorry my mistake, I read the info wrong.