Racism in management

GMI

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There is an interesting article in the Guardian in relation to Mr. Campbell and his ascertions that he is going to have to leave the country to begin his management career as black managers are not treated equally in the UK. Irrespective of our opinions on Sol as a person how big is this issue? Maybe I am just being naive but I would imagine if you are a good manager/coach then your progress would not be hindered on the basis of race? Is it as simple as 'limited numbers of black managers/coaches = inherent racism in UK football'.

Would welcome thoughts on this.
 

Geyzer Soze

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Bollocks. Professional fucking victim. His career in England is compromised because people have him pegged fir what he is. A ****.
 

Syn_13

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There is an interesting article in the Guardian in relation to Mr. Campbell and his ascertions that he is going to have to leave the country to begin his management career as black managers are not treated equally in the UK. Irrespective of our opinions on Sol as a person how big is this issue? Maybe I am just being naive but I would imagine if you are a good manager/coach then your progress would not be hindered on the basis of race? Is it as simple as 'limited numbers of black managers/coaches = inherent racism in UK football'.

Would welcome thoughts on this.
Yeah, good luck on that one. :p
 

Real_madyidd

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I don't think it's a big issue at all. I am surethat there is a pipeline of good black coachescoming through the ranks, and I for one wouldn't give a flying fuck what colour our manager is. Sol Campbell probably feels he is entitled to manage Man U on day one, but then again he is a ****.
 

Stavrogin

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There is an interesting article in the Guardian in relation to Mr. Campbell and his ascertions that he is going to have to leave the country to begin his management career as black managers are not treated equally in the UK. Irrespective of our opinions on Sol as a person how big is this issue? Maybe I am just being naive but I would imagine if you are a good manager/coach then your progress would not be hindered on the basis of race? Is it as simple as 'limited numbers of black managers/coaches = inherent racism in UK football'.

Would welcome thoughts on this.
I'm not sure that this particular article is that interesting. It's extremely solipsistic, talking about how he wasn't parachuted in as England Assistant manager - despite not having done his coaching qualifications and talking about him causing them problems.

It seems as though the football world is suffering from some weird hysteria where super-rich, super-insulated characters seem to think they're the most oppressed people on the planet - I really see this in the same vein as Suarez and co.


As to the main issue, we really need better stats - how many white people are being turned down for jobs, how many people (black or white) get jobs they're probably not qualified for (you can look at people who are repeat failures consistently getting jobs [Souness, Bruce?], or high profile players [including Barnes and Ince as well as the likes of Keane] who get the top jobs with no pedigree.) What about the club owners - are they all older men of a different generation? etc. etc.

There are so many nuanced metrics that pertain to the question but we just don't seem to see an in depth explanation - instead we get some fluffy articles based on anecdotal evidence or a flawed concept such as there being x amount of black players now yet only y black managers.

It's also worth remembering that managers and coaches are an extremely small group compared to footballers in general and it's probably susceptible to anomalies. For example, there's a group of black players from a recent generation who had the image and presence to go straight into good management jobs but they all, as far as I know, got waylaid doing TV work: Ian Wright, Mark Bright, Chris Kamara, John Barnes, John Fashanu and there may be more. If all of them had been managing (or continuing to manage) it would probably make a big impact on the stats/appearance.

An interesting and important question - but we really know so little about the inner workings of it.
 

Misfit

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I agree with him. It's because he's black. There's no other reason for it. Exactly why we as a fanbase despise him on the whole. We're a disgusting bunch of racists. No other explanation is possible.

He's a victim and it's criminal that his obvious talents as a coach and manager are being overlooked because of prejudices.

He was a man of honour and truth as a player and is clearly one of the most exciting coaches in this country.

It's criminal!
 

Misfit

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Now, Les Ferdinand has alluded to something similar in the past I believe. Considering he's kinda sorta taken this stuff seriously what with the courses and actually coaching players instead of just demanding a gig because a few yrs back he played football, I'd be more interested in an article in which he talks about the situation.
 

stonecolddeanaustin

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I'm intrigued to know what football loving country he plans to go to that is more tolerant of race than this one. Spain? Italy? France? Germany? I suspect he'll end up going to a country where the quality of coaching is fairly low and they'll be happy to give him a job purely because of his name and premier league experience.
 

Marty

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Brian Deane's had to go to Sarpsborg in Norway, a club that overachieves if it's even in the top flight, to get his managerial career started. He doesn't seem to be able to keep them up, but it would've been massive if he had. That's just an example that springs to mind right now, as he's admitted to Norwegian telly that he tried but simply couldn't get a manager's job in England.

It seems that management is still very much a white man's game, and the only way that will change is if a black manager performs extraordinary things.
 

Misfit

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Brian Deane's had to go to Sarpsborg in Norway, a club that overachieves if it's even in the top flight, to get his managerial career started. He doesn't seem to be able to keep them up, but it would've been massive if he had. That's just an example that springs to mind right now, as he's admitted to Norwegian telly that he tried but simply couldn't get a manager's job in England.

It seems that management is still very much a white man's game, and the only way that will change is if a black manager performs extraordinary things.
That's what Sir Les has alluded to in the recent past. Even in the lower leagues. Think it was on a podcast or something. That doesn't explain Ince I guess but when you think of the racial make up of players in the last 20 yrs, there's a definite disconnect when it comes to HCs and managers. I'd hesitate to say prejudice wasn't a factor, even sub-consciously. Not sure it's the biggest factor though.

But either way, fuck Sol Campbell. The last thing he is, is a victim.
 

GMI

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That's what Sir Les has alluded to in the recent past. Think it was on a podcast or something.
I just can't believe that is the case in 2013. I've been living in Shropshire too long. :unsure: I've be lulled into a false belief that everyone is nice, happy and that we all get along with each other and that racism was a diminishing evil in this Country (Saying that Shoprshire must be the most undiverse place on the planet!)
 

Spurs 1961

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That's what Sir Les has alluded to in the recent past. Think it was on a podcast or something.
I have not read the article so my comments are not based on Mr Campbell.

There is certainly an issue here as there was in the past with players who were never thought to be up to it, legends etc. I think though there is also the issue of it being hard for young British managers to break in whatever their background. Whenever there is a managerial vacancy it is always the same old managers who are the favourites. Boards are reluctant to try anything new and rather so go for the even indifferent managers who have been around all the other clubs. Football is full of the old boy network all around the world from top to bottom. It has been refreshing to see us, the scousers and the toffees go for young managers and that must encourage others on their way up. It is hard to break through but a few top flight black managers will open the door to others
 

stonecolddeanaustin

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Brian Deane's had to go to Sarpsborg in Norway, a club that overachieves if it's even in the top flight, to get his managerial career started. He doesn't seem to be able to keep them up, but it would've been massive if he had. That's just an example that springs to mind right now, as he's admitted to Norwegian telly that he tried but simply couldn't get a manager's job in England.

It seems that management is still very much a white man's game, and the only way that will change is if a black manager performs extraordinary things.
Is that because he's black or just not that big a name in football? How low a level did he go to look? Justin Edinburgh, for example, started off managing Fisher Athletic, a semi-pro club. He's now worked himself up to League 2. I suspect that even the bottom of the Norwegian League is a higher level than semi-pro. Admittedly, Brian Deane may be a bigger name in football (purely cos he scored goals) but at what level did he expect to start?
 

Misfit

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Yes. I'd very much like to think we live in a meritocracy, especially when professional sports are concerned, it's pretty much the only way to go you'd think. Who knows though. I speak from a position of complete ignorance on the subject. So I'll dismiss Sol out of hand because I think he's a delusional fantasist tbh who can convince himself of anything quite easily. The subject itself is a very valid one though.
 

beats1

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I think Sol's biggest problem is that he is a shit and no one wants to touch him with a barge pole, after the Notts County debacle
 

Marty

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Is that because he's black or just not that big a name in football? How low a level did he go to look? Justin Edinburgh, for example, started off managing Fisher Athletic, a semi-pro club. He's now worked himself up to League 2. I suspect that even the bottom of the Norwegian League is a higher level than semi-pro. Admittedly, Brian Deane may be a bigger name in football (purely cos he scored goals) but at what level did he expect to start?
He never said anything about that, but I think it's safe to assume that he didn't want a job outside the Football League, in which case Sarpsborg are a slightly better prospect than Conference/Regional clubs, their level is probably around League One/Two but of course it's very hard to make a proper comparison like that.

In the case of Ince, he was so high profile throughout his career that there's no doubt he was a bit of an exception to the rule. To me it just seems like hiring any black manager is automatically labelled as a bit of a risky move, but then I think that goes hand in hand with the fact that none have really been given a proper chance at the highest level before, Chrissy at Norwich being the only real exception.
 

Misfit

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I just can't believe that is the case in 2013. I've been living in Shropshire too long. :unsure: I've be lulled into a false belief that everyone is nice, happy and that we all get along with each other and that racism was a diminishing evil in this Country (Saying that Shoprshire must be the most undiverse place on the planet!)
Hey, I'd be surprised if it was the case, talent is talent when it comes to sport, you'd think. Who knows though. Easy for me to say that as a member of the majority who probably misses stuff others don't every day of the week.

Certainly when it comes to the premiership I don't think this would be a huge issue. Russian, ME and Merican owners are hardly the old boys network. Getting a foot onto the bottom rung seems hard enough in the lower leagues with clubs often turning to ex-players, particularly club legends with an affinity for the club and area if and when a young manager is given a shot seemingly.

Lots of recycled failures still lingering around though. Seems that many managers are given a decade shuffling between various clubs before being given the elbow.
 
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