Jose Mourinho

[Gingernut]

That's the point. Poch didn't have to cope with the ramifications of a pandemic during his time but neither did any other manager. It was a level playing field in that respect. Now, Jose is having to cope with the ramifications of a pandemic. But so is every other manager. Again, it is a level playing field.

So in any comparison of Poch and Jose's respective records at the club, citing COVID as a mitigating factor isn't valid.

I'd disagree with your reasoning because he is saying that you cannot compare Poch and Jose at the moment because one had to deal with Covid and one didn't. I do not think he is saying that you cannot compare Jose with any other manager in the League right now?

 

[SecretLemonadeDrinker]

Best football ive seen spurs play (since early 80s) was poch by a mile. However, he won nothing. Mourinho has won nothing, and if you change the manager to any of the ones mentioned on here, they will probably win nothing too. If you are extremely lucky (but very unlikely) you get back to the dizzy poch heights, or most likely, its like this, or probably worse as we wont reach any finals. Please dont think a new manager will change things, we've had 13 since 2001 and 5 of those years were Poch. Been here before. We are at the business end of 2 x tournaments, ill take that.

Thanks for cheering me up, mate. I was feeling really down after yesterday but your post has perked me up no end.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

I'd disagree with your reasoning because he is saying that you cannot compare Poch and Jose at the moment because one had to deal with Covid and one didn't. I do not think he is saying that you cannot compare Jose with any other manager in the League right now?

You can carry that game on by saying Poch didn't play a home game for two seasons. It's a pointless argument and to be honest not even worth a comparison. I also wish we'd stop talking about the Poch years but that's another issue.

 

[Gingernut]

You can carry that game on by saying Poch didn't play a home game for two seasons. It's a pointless argument and to be honest not even worth a comparison. I also wish we'd stop talking about the Poch years but that's another issue.

Agreed - just trying to explain someone else's point of view....it is not mine.

 

[SecretLemonadeDrinker]

I'd disagree with your reasoning because he is saying that you cannot compare Poch and Jose at the moment because one had to deal with Covid and one didn't. I do not think he is saying that you cannot compare Jose with any other manager in the League right now?

The post that first cited COVID as a mitigating factor was this:

We were 14th when Jose joined - we finished 6th - that is progress. If we finish lower than 6th this season, Jose's first full season, then we can begin to judge. And BTW - Poch never had to deal with Covid / Lockdown etc.

The clear implication is that, with regard to the relative performance of their teams, Jose is at a disadvantage to Poch because he has had to cope with COVID.

And that simply doesn't work at all.

It would only work if Jose's Spurs were disadvantaged by comparison to every other current team - i.e. that only Spurs had been affected by COVID. Since that isn't the case, and since there is a level playing field now (just as there was for Poch), there is no validity in citing COVID as a mitigating factor for Jose in any comparison with Poch.

 

[Japhet]

The talk about the formation for me is the big question. A lot of us including myself was disappointed with Bale yesterday but what do you expect from a player that has never tracked back properly for the majority of his career and has never been asked to.

How many times do you see Salah or Mahrez for example tracking back and doubling up with their full back? Hardly ever, as one of the midfield three would move across and help the full back, whilst they play in the space ready for the counter attack.

4-3-3 is the most successful formation out there at the moment and has been for the last 10 years and also for Jose at Chelsea. I think he feels we don't have the correct personnel to play it while others would disagree.

The midfield options available to Mourinho are far better suited to a CM3 than a CM2 (IMO). On the rare occasions we've played that way we've been very strong but Mourinho is stubbornly sticking to a pivot and number 10 setup for reasons best known to himself. We're now at a stage where Hojbjerg is running on fumes and Ndombele is getting found out, mainly because Winks and Sissoko aren't being trusted in a pivot, but the fact remains that both are fine in a CM3. It's even more obvious we need this setup to protect wingbacks who like to get forward but are a bit suspect defending, but against moderately competent teams we continually get found out because he refuses to change 'his' way of playing even though we blatantly don't have the players for it.

 

[nugsie]

Football's got weird.

 

[talkshowhost86]

In fairness though should a club with the best facilities in Europe be just sneaking into contention surely competing with the best has to be the end game.
After all we have been in Europe 14 out of the last 15 seasons and been in the top six for 13 of those, this is hardly a west ham moment of bucking the trend the club has been on the edge of many things but continues to fall short so something is clearly missing.

Yes the thing that is missing is the additional money that would allow us to compete with the four or five clubs who continually outspend us.

Now there's an argument as to whether that money is available from Levy/ENIC, and those facilities' impact on our potential income etc, but at the moment we are still 'only' the 5th or 6th richest club in the country.

Either way, none of it equates to there being some deep-rooted fear of winning within the soul of the club.

 

[Cochise]

I think in the games where we attack, Jose has been happy to see us playing a 235. These goal laden games that we've had recently have seen both fullbacks in the attacking third with Bale and Son tucking in and playing closer to Kane.

Jose likes to have a solid 4 at the back at all times though. That's the two CB's and the two CM's, however if you watch us of late there have been times where both Moura, Kane and Bale all drop deep to offer as a third CM when the double pivot are out numbered.

We aren't really playing with a solid #10 and #9 system as there is usually a lot more rotation between the players in the middle. Even on the sides we have Reguilon and Aurier/Doherty sometimes going inside of Son and Bale whilst those two hold the width.

 

[shelfboy68]

Yes the thing that is missing is the additional money that would allow us to compete with the four or five clubs who continually outspend us.

Now there's an argument as to whether that money is available from Levy/ENIC, and those facilities' impact on our potential income etc, but at the moment we are still 'only' the 5th or 6th richest club in the country.

Either way, none of it equates to there being some deep-rooted fear of winning within the soul of the club.

Maybe not but I have just don't know what can be done anymore I think the club are all out of excuses, I suppose if although extremely unlikely we could beat city then maybe winning something might give the club a platform for further success but I seriously doubt it.

 

[Wheeler Dealer]

I'm not looking for any one to be sacked or anything.

I am very interested if there was a change of strategy or if it was the case that Arsenal just wanted it more.

There's never been a strategy, but a pre-historic tactic to drop deep and let the other team have the ball, whilst waiting for them to make an error.

 

[ultimateloner]

Maybe not but I have just don't know what can be done anymore I think the club are all out of excuses, I suppose if although extremely unlikely we could beat city then maybe winning something might give the club a platform for further success but I seriously doubt it.

I agree and think things might even get worse for us the over the new few years when Kane + Son start to age.

The problem is we want to qualify for CL consistently but it's getting harder and harder, not easier. Our gap with the established top 4 isn't getting smaller and the ones below us can actually beat us on any given day (Wolves/Everton etc etc).

Just look at how City brought Jesus in years ago as an heir to a prime-age Augero. We wanted to do the same for Kane but never found one. That speaks volumes about what the club can do in terms of building for the future.

My view is that until the stadium money starts coming in consistently we wont be able to spend our way to success.

 

[shelfboy68]

I agree and think things might even get worse for us the over the new few years when Kane + Son start to age.

The problem is we want to qualify for CL consistently but it's getting harder and harder, not easier. Our gap with the established top 4 isn't getting smaller and the ones below us can actually beat us on any given day (Wolves/Everton etc etc).

Just look at how City brought Jesus in years ago as an heir to a prime-age Augero. We wanted to do the same for Kane but never found one. That speaks volumes about what the club can do in terms of building for the future.

My view is that until the stadium money starts coming in consistently we wont be able to spend our way to success.

The money may well come in eventually but we need to stay in touch and be semi relevant in the meantime which I guess is why Jose is here.
But I don't feel that vibe would come from the club their ambition towards the pitch side of things is lacking something and I wouldn't trust them to get it right.

 

[mumfordspur]

Does anyone know the facts why Levy delayed getting a new stadium built I know it took years in planning but he has been in charge for what over 20 years?

 

[ultimateloner]

The money may well come in eventually but we need to stay in touch and be semi relevant in the meantime which I guess is why Jose is here.
But I don't feel that vibe would come from the club their ambition towards the pitch side of things is lacking something and I wouldn't trust them to get it right.

Yep me neither which is why I expect the Jose crash-and-burn thing to happen eventually; as it did so often wherever he goes.

It's just regrettable that this has to happen with Kane and Son. Son's a nice guy and Kane's a club legend, and yet they are unlikely to finish their careers with us with a PL trophy to show.

 

[rossdapep]

Compare this to Tuchel who turned up at Chelsea, instantly went for a formation that suits the squad and they've gone something like 12 unbeaten only conceding twice. Yes, they're not blowing teams away but he's clearly got a vision.

To change formation, way of playing and a number of positions for a number of players would usually mean a period of inconsistency and bedding in, especially with games coming thick and fast.
It's impressive coaching, pains me to say. I don't see that with Mourinho, I just don't see what he's trying to do.

This is where we need to really question Jose, if I'm honest.

Now, we are coming from different spectrums of the strategy of football, as Jose is largely known for a defensive approach with counter attacks/fast transitions been layered upon that.

Tuchel, Klopp, Pep, Conte, Bielsa, Sarri, among others, all imposed their strategy from their very first game upon arriving in England. Poch was at times in his first season but certainly half way through his second season. They didn't all have success immediately but the foundations had generally been laid and it was then a case of adding layers on top of that, tweaking or bringing in a couple of additions to help them get better at it. You could easily say that Pep and Klopp were lucky to have big expenditure to bring in top class players to fill these roles and boost their system's success - and I think that is very reasonable.

Conte didn't really need that, he just made a couple formation changes and saw an immediate boost. Tuchel has only been there for a short period but seems to have already laid his foundation and the next step will be to give his team more goals. Bielsa had Leeds playing his style quickly and you could say they are flawed but if they had better quality they'd be pushing the top 8 places - which is a success IMO.

Now let's compare that with Jose. The style of football is completely different to the others I mentioned - besides Conte, perhaps - and hasn't been a major issue for me. I accepted results are what mattered under Jose, and got behind this because I wanted trophies. I made excuses for Jose in his first few months cause I felt personnel was an issue not so much him.

Project restart did see an improvement and I think we saw some consistency right through to December. The foundations appeared to have been laid, it was then a case of adding the layers to this. I supported this and felt that once he works on the use of the ball things will change. Yet, 3 months later and it doesn't really feel like we are altering too much.

What I expected to see vs Arsenal was a compact performance but much better use of the ball in this system, a marriage of what we saw pre-December and what we've seen recently. Basically, the compactness when dropping back but more variations of play and aggression when we receive the ball. We didn't need to see domination, we just needed to see a solid strategy that shows the team is moving forward and Jose is showing a future to persist with him.

My feeling is that he is struggling to get a balance right because by nature he doesn't really have a dynamic attacking approach, it's a little more based on fast transitions and allowing the players to decide for themselves. He hasn't figured out the base strategy for players to use when they win the ball back whilst being pinned back and pressed other than look for Kane or the channels, our players aren't being told to get close to each other when winning the ball back - probably because Jose wants them to be ready in defensive transition. Arsenal found it easy to get the ball back because they always had four of five players pressing areas at the same time, whereas our players were very rooted to their specific positions on the pitch.

To summarise, after 18 months Jose still hasn't been able to get the team to cope with pressure/pressing. I'm not saying I expect us to never be out pressed or pinned back, nor am I saying I expect us to suddenly start dominating the bigger teams but I am saying I expect to see us be able to take the pressure off at times and have periods of games in which we are able to wrestle back control.

 

[rossdapep]

You were on a roll last night - MVP on the forum post game. Thanks for your posts.

On this point, that theory is about to be tested in a game of similar difficulty against City.

Thanks for saying, mate. I was very supportive of Jose until the bad run of form and it's become a case of me wanting to see if he can show improvements upon the concerns we have - if not he has to go.

Where is your standing? And what do you see he's doing wrong?

 

[rossdapep]

Yep me neither which is why I expect the Jose crash-and-burn thing to happen eventually; as it did so often wherever he goes.

It's just regrettable that this has to happen with Kane and Son. Son's a nice guy and Kane's a club legend, and yet they are unlikely to finish their careers with us with a PL trophy to show.

I think we need to come to terms with the fact a PL win is something we won't be seeing anytime soon, if not for a long time. The club is set upon foundations not to do so. I actually think we have more chance of winning the CL.

The best we can hope for is to pick up domestic/European trophies along the way and get back into the CL consistently.

 

[shelfboy68]

Yep me neither which is why I expect the Jose crash-and-burn thing to happen eventually; as it did so often wherever he goes.

It's just regrettable that this has to happen with Kane and Son. Son's a nice guy and Kane's a club legend, and yet they are unlikely to finish their careers with us with a PL trophy to show.

This is the thing isn't it whilst we don't know what is going on behind the scenes or will go on, I would not be surprised if both left after all what can they conceivably win at spurs.
We have quite a risk adverse chairman who will spend an entire summer squeezing the life out of a deal to lose or gain a few Bob, then we have the very spursy nature of rescuing defeat from possible success will always rear its head.

 

[TOLBINY]

The post that first cited COVID as a mitigating factor was this:



The clear implication is that, with regard to the relative performance of their teams, Jose is at a disadvantage to Poch because he has had to cope with COVID.

And that simply doesn't work at all.

It would only work if Jose's Spurs were disadvantaged by comparison to every other current team - i.e. that only Spurs had been affected by COVID. Since that isn't the case, and since there is a level playing field now (just as there was for Poch), there is no validity in citing COVID as a mitigating factor for Jose in any comparison with Poch.

So why so many more away wins and why are Spam doing so well without their poisonous supporters to cheer them on? Covid will impact different players in different ways. Some players might be more relaxed and perform better becuase they do not feel the pressure of having to perform in front of 60K screaming fans, others may find their performance levels drop becuase they usually get a buzz out of the crowd being there. We have no idea how Covid has impacted our players or those of other teams.