Jose Mourinho

[Shadydan]

Just for the record I don’t think selling Kane is the answer to anything but that doesn’t mean it won’t happen If this season is a poor one.




Exactly so you agree with me, Pochettino had 'lost' the dressing room. Mourinho was brought in to 'find' it. He didn’t come in to do a rebuild but get more out of what we had.

We hired Mourinho for instant results, which to some extent he has provided.

Not sure if you can compare a manager who was here for 6 years as apposed to another one being here for 10 months.

 

[jurgen]

Since Mourinho was appointed, in the 2019/20 season we'd have been 4th:

How the Premier League table looks since Jose Mourinho was appointed Spurs boss

It’s all over. Another Premier League season in the books and it was wild one for Tottenham and their new manager Jose Mourinho. It has been eight months since he was announced as a swift rep…

talksport.com

And that's with Kane and Son injured for large stretches. So on the pitch Mourinho has delivered I guess

Yes I knew about that one, I presume what I referenced may have included the first game of this season, but who knows my mind was spinning on Sunday watching that shite.

I do feel the last 3 episodes of the Amazon doc show that Mourinho must be as exasperated as everyone else.

The football is aesthetically dreadful but we're not going to be sacking him so soon and nor should we imo.

 

[the shelf]

I agree.

Id like to see a younger coach brought in and I would sell harry to pay for the rebuild. Liverpool have done it so if done correctly it can work.

Not sure I want hitchen and levy choosing the new players though!

I wouldn't want those two picking the colour paint for my bathroom!

 

[brendanb50]

Yes I knew about that one, I presume what I referenced may have included the first game of this season, but who knows my mind was spinning on Sunday watching that shite.

I do feel the last 3 episodes of the Amazon doc show that Mourinho must be as exasperated as everyone else.

The football is aesthetically dreadful but we're not going to be sacking him so soon and nor should we imo.

Agreed. He (like any manager) will need time to make these changes. He's experienced enough to get more right than wrong (whether players execute is sometimes a different matter) and hopefully by the end of the window he has a squad which he can organise.

This is still a transitional season for us and our next 'challenging' squad may still be a year away IMO. If and it's a bit 'if' we persist with JM.

 

[Maxtremist]

Yes I knew about that one, I presume what I referenced may have included the first game of this season, but who knows my mind was spinning on Sunday watching that shite.

I do feel the last 3 episodes of the Amazon doc show that Mourinho must be as exasperated as everyone else.

The football is aesthetically dreadful but we're not going to be sacking him so soon and nor should we imo.

If you include the opening weekend of fixtures then yeah, Wolves win last night moves them a point above us in that table. But that's going into if you count this season into a table for last season etc...

I think the part in bold is the thing for me. I feel like Mourinho will, for the most part, get us results (which was what I was alluding to in the table). I don't think it'll be pretty and then it comes down to... do we want results or do we want it to be pretty? As things stand, I don't think we can easily get both.

 

[the shelf]

Yes I knew about that one, I presume what I referenced may have included the first game of this season, but who knows my mind was spinning on Sunday watching that shite.

I do feel the last 3 episodes of the Amazon doc show that Mourinho must be as exasperated as everyone else.

The football is aesthetically dreadful but we're not going to be sacking him so soon and nor should we imo.

The football is the worst I have seen in years and I used to go when we had George Graham in charge so I know drab football when I see it.

It's a hard watch to say the least and will ultimately get us nowhere.

 

[brendanb50]

If you include the opening weekend of fixtures then yeah, Wolves win last night moves them a point above us in that table. But that's going into if you count this season into a table for last season etc...

I think the part in bold is the thing for me. I feel like Mourinho will, for the most part, get us results (which was what I was alluding to in the table). I don't think it'll be pretty and then it comes down to... do we want results or do we want it to be pretty? As things stand, I don't think we can easily get both.

Exactly. We can all see that without TN and GLC on the pitch (TN may be a push at the moment) we lack a degree of creativity from MF. If you're Man City, you go out and buy 3/4 of the best AMs in the world et voila - sexy creative football. Maybe doing Guardiola a disservice there...

Without some fluidity in midfield, we need to play with a different style. I still think we have players who will score great goals and produce the odd moment of magic but at the moment it seems that we're still trying to get the effort right and the system working. Even if that system is a bit dull and primarily designed to keep oppo out and frustrated rather than banging in goals for fun.

 

[13VanDerBale13]

Needs to stop playing our shit players who wont help us progress

 

[freeeki]

I really think it's unfair to lay too much of the blame at Mourinho's feet for our current state.

We saw under Pochettino in the last year a manager who had lost much of the dressing room, whose squad had gone stale, and whose last year of abysmal form was masked by an unprecedented UCL run. The reality was, many of the players looked like they had stopped playing for Poch.

The issue is, those players haven't re-captured their form under Mourinho, which would suggest to me that they hadn't just stopped playing for Poch - they've also stopped playing for Spurs.

I don't think we can overstate how disastrous the decision not to significantly strengthen the squad through 2017-18 was, with hindsight. As the chap on TalkSport (idk who it was, saw it on Twitter) said this morning - we've failed to adequately replace Walker, Rose, Wanyama, Dembele, Vertonghen or Eriksen. I appreciate we've signed some good players, with Lo Celso being the one who really stands out, but frankly that isn't good enough at this stage.

Poch was right when he said a major rebuild was needed, and I think Jose was naive in thinking that this squad could win things - not that any new manager could realistically come in and say "this lot are shite" on his first day.

IMO there are only three players (barring recent academy graduates and new signings) who should be safe at this point - those being Lloris, Son and Kane. Which feels a little harsh on Lo Celso who should also probably be in there. The rest of the squad needs to be entirely overhauled over the next 2-3 transfer windows if we're to have any hope of getting close to winning things again.

I understand we don't have unlimited money to spend, and covid has thrown in an unexpected curveball, but it's more than a little galling when we have the highest ticket prices in the league, additional revenue from things like the NFL, and boasts of our record profits and record turnover etc, to not see that reinvested in the squad.

It was, beyond doubt, utterly negligent of Levy to not spend for however many transfer windows it was (and by extension, negligent of Poch too, if the ITK is accurate that he was offered targets and said no); that could almost be forgiven if we learn from the mistake and secure Jose the players he needs (if the ITK is accurate that he has provided a realistic list of targets).

If we don't, we will lose Jose, and as much as some people on here act like he's the problem despite all evidence to the contrary - if Pochettino can't get these players to perform, and Mourinho can't get these players to perform, then no other manager is going to do it. Not Bielsa, not Conte, not Nagelsmann, not Eddie Howe, not Ledley King, not even Alex Ferguson.

tl;dr - Gut the squad, start afresh, back the damn manager.

 

[DannyNZ]

Since Jose came I’ve been fairly balanced, criticised when he’s deserved it and praised equally, I believed Poch had come to the end but unlike others blamed Levy for the downfall and didn’t believe that someone new coming in would automatically give us this lift that some thought it might.

However, I can’t remember anything in recent times that has left me open mouthed, some 36 hours after a match, almost paralysed with horror, than that substitution of Dele for Sissoko. Nothing comes close.

I get that Sissoko was an odd choice but dragging Dele was no more than he deserved, much as you were open mouthed I was as well watching Dele lose possession consistently.

 

[freeeki]

One small point in addition - if it's true that half the dressing room are upset with Jose saying they under-performed, then good. It's about time.

Any player who has the brass neck to claim that everyone tried their hardest on Sunday should be dropped.

 

[brendanb50]

I really think it's unfair to lay too much of the blame at Mourinho's feet for our current state.

We saw under Pochettino in the last year a manager who had lost much of the dressing room, whose squad had gone stale, and whose last year of abysmal form was masked by an unprecedented UCL run. The reality was, many of the players looked like they had stopped playing for Poch.

The issue is, those players haven't re-captured their form under Mourinho, which would suggest to me that they hadn't just stopped playing for Poch - they've also stopped playing for Spurs.

I don't think we can overstate how disastrous the decision not to significantly strengthen the squad through 2017-18 was, with hindsight. As the chap on TalkSport (idk who it was, saw it on Twitter) said this morning - we've failed to adequately replace Walker, Rose, Wanyama, Dembele, Vertonghen or Eriksen. I appreciate we've signed some good players, with Lo Celso being the one who really stands out, but frankly that isn't good enough at this stage.

Poch was right when he said a major rebuild was needed, and I think Jose was naive in thinking that this squad could win things - not that any new manager could realistically come in and say "this lot are shite" on his first day.

IMO there are only three players (barring recent academy graduates and new signings) who should be safe at this point - those being Lloris, Son and Kane. Which feels a little harsh on Lo Celso who should also probably be in there. The rest of the squad needs to be entirely overhauled over the next 2-3 transfer windows if we're to have any hope of getting close to winning things again.

I understand we don't have unlimited money to spend, and covid has thrown in an unexpected curveball, but it's more than a little galling when we have the highest ticket prices in the league, additional revenue from things like the NFL, and boasts of our record profits and record turnover etc, to not see that reinvested in the squad.

It was, beyond doubt, utterly negligent of Levy to not spend for however many transfer windows it was (and by extension, negligent of Poch too, if the ITK is accurate that he was offered targets and said no); that could almost be forgiven if we learn from the mistake and secure Jose the players he needs (if the ITK is accurate that he has provided a realistic list of targets).

If we don't, we will lose Jose, and as much as some people on here act like he's the problem despite all evidence to the contrary - if Pochettino can't get these players to perform, and Mourinho can't get these players to perform, then no other manager is going to do it. Not Bielsa, not Conte, not Nagelsmann, not Eddie Howe, not Ledley King, not even Alex Ferguson.

tl;dr - Gut the squad, start afresh, back the damn manager.

Agree with so much of this - It really is a mentality issue for me. Some players seem to have lost a bit of a spark and you can see it in their effort at times. A few also aren't good enough/are upgradeable. This should have been work in progress but as you've noted, failure to reinvest has really hit us.

This is a process, which one window won't fix. JM needs a few windows to get this closer to the team he/we need and he needs backing to do that.

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

2) I am really concerned about our lack of patterns of play. I think Jose likes to give the players a lot of autonomy on this side of things but I'm starting to wonder if modern players need their hand held in terms of systems much more than in Jose's heyday. When coupled with Mourinho's emphasis on not making mistakes it leads to a really risk averse and timid style of football that is awful to watch. I'm sure the resulting football isn't want Jose wants but I think he needs to do more work on this now than he used to.

This is a key point. And one I alluded to when we appointed Jose. He's obviously had a lot of success with teams that are able to buy players from the top of the table. He's given them a defensive structure and work ethic to adhere to and then allowed them to make their own decisions when attacking. This is fine when you have Ronaldo, Deco, Lampard, Kaka etc... who have the ability and confidence to figure things out for themselves and make the right decisions in attacking situations. When you have a team full of players below that top tier, or players or that are still developing, they need more hand holding. The best teams in the world all have very mechanical attacking patterns of play. But also they have players within those patterns that can take the initiative when the opportunity presents itself. Right now we have neither the attacking patterns of play, and arguably only one player, in Kane, that can take the initiative. It's not a good mix.

At our best under Poch we were predictable going forward but the players had such belief in the system that it made it unstoppable. Currently we just look clueless when we have the ball. Our tactic involves either a long diagonal from Toby that is easily cut out. Or trying our hardest to give the ball to opposition in the hope that they might make a mistake that allows us to run in a straight line towards their goal. It's really difficult to watch.

I actually think(and pray) Mourinho will make us effective in the end(despite being against his appointment from the outset) but the process if fucking painful.

 

[felmani26]

People acknowledge a 'painful rebuild' and problems in the squad both in terms of ability and mentally yet after one match it's back the ol' get rid of the manager rhetoric as if that will magically resolve the inherent issues at this club.

 

[sausage]

I really think it's unfair to lay too much of the blame at Mourinho's feet for our current state.

We saw under Pochettino in the last year a manager who had lost much of the dressing room, whose squad had gone stale, and whose last year of abysmal form was masked by an unprecedented UCL run. The reality was, many of the players looked like they had stopped playing for Poch.

The issue is, those players haven't re-captured their form under Mourinho, which would suggest to me that they hadn't just stopped playing for Poch - they've also stopped playing for Spurs.

I don't think we can overstate how disastrous the decision not to significantly strengthen the squad through 2017-18 was, with hindsight. As the chap on TalkSport (idk who it was, saw it on Twitter) said this morning - we've failed to adequately replace Walker, Rose, Wanyama, Dembele, Vertonghen or Eriksen. I appreciate we've signed some good players, with Lo Celso being the one who really stands out, but frankly that isn't good enough at this stage.

Poch was right when he said a major rebuild was needed, and I think Jose was naive in thinking that this squad could win things - not that any new manager could realistically come in and say "this lot are shite" on his first day.

IMO there are only three players (barring recent academy graduates and new signings) who should be safe at this point - those being Lloris, Son and Kane. Which feels a little harsh on Lo Celso who should also probably be in there. The rest of the squad needs to be entirely overhauled over the next 2-3 transfer windows if we're to have any hope of getting close to winning things again.

I understand we don't have unlimited money to spend, and covid has thrown in an unexpected curveball, but it's more than a little galling when we have the highest ticket prices in the league, additional revenue from things like the NFL, and boasts of our record profits and record turnover etc, to not see that reinvested in the squad.

It was, beyond doubt, utterly negligent of Levy to not spend for however many transfer windows it was (and by extension, negligent of Poch too, if the ITK is accurate that he was offered targets and said no); that could almost be forgiven if we learn from the mistake and secure Jose the players he needs (if the ITK is accurate that he has provided a realistic list of targets).

If we don't, we will lose Jose, and as much as some people on here act like he's the problem despite all evidence to the contrary - if Pochettino can't get these players to perform, and Mourinho can't get these players to perform, then no other manager is going to do it. Not Bielsa, not Conte, not Nagelsmann, not Eddie Howe, not Ledley King, not even Alex Ferguson.

tl;dr - Gut the squad, start afresh, back the damn manager.

I'd add Bergwijn to the list - he's quality and, of course, still only 22.

There are some players that are common to the Poch downfall and, regardless of their individual merits, they are probably overdue a new turn. Ironically, people who thought that England fluffed up the World Cup because of the spurs spine were probably right - we have too many guys who are great players individually, but as a combination they seem to lack some sort of coherence that will ever (seemingly) make them part of a great team. I'm sure if you dilute them into other teams they'll look great again, but there's something off about the sum of our parts that isn't about individual quality.

Part of that is likely to mean that we need to chuck in lads like Cirkin, Skipp, White, Parrott - they might not be as good as some of the lads in front of them, but there's a chance that they (having done so for a few years) will be able to work together to mend the cohesion or mentality. Same as Poch did in his first season tbh.

 

[freeeki]

I'd add Bergwijn to the list - he's quality and, of course, still only 22.

There are some players that are common to the Poch downfall and, regardless of their individual merits, they are probably overdue a new turn. Ironically, people who thought that England fluffed up the World Cup because of the spurs spine were probably right - we have too many guys who are great players individually, but as a combination they seem to lack some sort of coherence that will ever (seemingly) make them part of a great team. I'm sure if you dilute them into other teams they'll look great again, but there's something off about the sum of our parts that isn't about individual quality.

Part of that is likely to mean that we need to chuck in lads like Cirkin, Skipp, White, Parrott - they might not be as good as some of the lads in front of them, but there's a chance that they (having done so for a few years) will be able to work together to mend the cohesion or mentality. Same as Poch did in his first season tbh.

Yes, agreed, I forgot about Bergwijn.

 

[Led's Zeppelin]

People acknowledge a 'painful rebuild' and problems in the squad both in terms of ability and mentally yet after one match it's back the ol' get rid of the manager rhetoric as if that will magically resolve the inherent issues at this club.

Agreed, but there's more to it.

People are also unhappy about the lack of excitement and creativity and cohesion amongst the players.

We wouldn't be happy to lose in style either, but there'd maybe be a bit more cause for optimism.

 

[Trotter]

If you include the opening weekend of fixtures then yeah, Wolves win last night moves them a point above us in that table. But that's going into if you count this season into a table for last season etc...

I think the part in bold is the thing for me. I feel like Mourinho will, for the most part, get us results (which was what I was alluding to in the table). I don't think it'll be pretty and then it comes down to... do we want results or do we want it to be pretty? As things stand, I don't think we can easily get both.

There are quite a few buts in that table though.
We had already played Liverpool, Man City, Arsenal and Leicester away from home (4 of the 6 hardest games of season in the first 12 of the season, meaning relative fixture list was significantly easier than peers)

He got a new manager bounce, and after that had us in our worst run of form, 1 draw and 5 defeats in 6 games, going out of 2 cup competitions we have had in a very long time, which was only saved by a pandemic.
XG actually had us finishing 12th last year on a measly 44 points, basically saying we gained a hell of lot of undeserved points (think Man City at home for prime example), which is not sustainable in long term (26 games is such a small sample size).
He does actually have the worst Win%, worst PPG of our last 6 managers (since Ramos), and the style of football is worse than even AVB's.

 

[wrd]

I really think it's unfair to lay too much of the blame at Mourinho's feet for our current state.

We saw under Pochettino in the last year a manager who had lost much of the dressing room, whose squad had gone stale, and whose last year of abysmal form was masked by an unprecedented UCL run. The reality was, many of the players looked like they had stopped playing for Poch.

The issue is, those players haven't re-captured their form under Mourinho, which would suggest to me that they hadn't just stopped playing for Poch - they've also stopped playing for Spurs.

I don't think we can overstate how disastrous the decision not to significantly strengthen the squad through 2017-18 was, with hindsight. As the chap on TalkSport (idk who it was, saw it on Twitter) said this morning - we've failed to adequately replace Walker, Rose, Wanyama, Dembele, Vertonghen or Eriksen. I appreciate we've signed some good players, with Lo Celso being the one who really stands out, but frankly that isn't good enough at this stage.

Poch was right when he said a major rebuild was needed, and I think Jose was naive in thinking that this squad could win things - not that any new manager could realistically come in and say "this lot are shite" on his first day.

IMO there are only three players (barring recent academy graduates and new signings) who should be safe at this point - those being Lloris, Son and Kane. Which feels a little harsh on Lo Celso who should also probably be in there. The rest of the squad needs to be entirely overhauled over the next 2-3 transfer windows if we're to have any hope of getting close to winning things again.

I understand we don't have unlimited money to spend, and covid has thrown in an unexpected curveball, but it's more than a little galling when we have the highest ticket prices in the league, additional revenue from things like the NFL, and boasts of our record profits and record turnover etc, to not see that reinvested in the squad.

It was, beyond doubt, utterly negligent of Levy to not spend for however many transfer windows it was (and by extension, negligent of Poch too, if the ITK is accurate that he was offered targets and said no); that could almost be forgiven if we learn from the mistake and secure Jose the players he needs (if the ITK is accurate that he has provided a realistic list of targets).

If we don't, we will lose Jose, and as much as some people on here act like he's the problem despite all evidence to the contrary - if Pochettino can't get these players to perform, and Mourinho can't get these players to perform, then no other manager is going to do it. Not Bielsa, not Conte, not Nagelsmann, not Eddie Howe, not Ledley King, not even Alex Ferguson.

tl;dr - Gut the squad, start afresh, back the damn manager.

Bang on mate and the reasons you mentioned are exactly why I was willing to defend Poch to the hilt. It's also why I'll keep defending Jose, he looked as exasperated as any of us on Sunday. We're still struggling with the summer of 2018 but these players have the quality, they need to overhaul their mentality and I think it's going to be painful these next few months but I do think if anybody can overhaul their mentality, it's Jose. Unfortunately I do think Kane is one of those who needs to get out of this cloud he is under. He's shown he's scoring he can still be unstoppable but Sunday he let his frustration get the better of him.

 

[DEFchenkOE]

Until Mourinho fixes our midfield we'll go nowhere. So far he has not got the balance right at all. We need a 3 man midfield to try and get hold of the ball a bit at least.