ENIC in or out?

[McFlash]

Is this finally that right thread to use the annoying phrase about "remembering the 90's"?!
If you can't see the improvements that have been made and the growth of the club, over the past 20 years, then I really don't know what to say.
Sure, ENIC have their faults but they are far better than 99% of owners out there.

Under their stewardship, we've risen from a little mid-table team, fondly remembering the glory days of the 60's, to a European giant on the verge of something big.
They now have all of the foundations in place and I am sure that they will push onwards and upwards from here.

To want them to leave know is short sighted at best.

 

[LeParisien]

NO AMBITION THE ENIC LOT. NO DESIRE TO WIN TROPHIES.

Literally THE reason to sign Mourinho.

 

[wrd]

I feel like Levy did let Poch down, I think he made mistakes which we were seeing coming home to roost this season but they had been a long time coming. I think the stadium delay situation could have been avoided if we had been a bit more conservative and the additional cost is eye watering and I do think that likely impacted us on the field with a lack of signings. I do think he let go Poch and brought in Jose as a way to cover up those mistakes.

However what I will say is that at least he is trying to rectify the mistakes, I reckon he was willing to stick with Poch out of loyalty but saw Poch's head was gone and wasn't going to recover so made the difficult decision and as I say he's trying to rectify the mistakes of the past by getting the biggest gun in possible with hiring Jose. Talk of a proper director of football, specifically the one we can attrack with Jose and also the assistant coach and infrastructure we're bringing in is greatly promising. We'll see if he backs Jose financially.

People always say that Levy needs to either shit or get off the pot, I'd say with these recent changes you could argue there's a little turtle head poking out. However it's ridiculously crucial we don't see Jose hamstrung the way Poch was, those days need to be behind us.

 

[Shadydan]

I put this in another thread but I'll throw it in here as well so people can read it, it's nicked from Reddit from r/coys from a dude called yaniv297, it's a quality read about our dear leader:

This might be an unpopular opinion now, as Levy's been flamed left and right. But I actually think that, amidst of all the chaos and the sadness, Levy has operated in an admirable way and deserves some love, or at least somebody trying to explain his point of view. So here goes:



A sad decision, that was probably more necessary than we knew.

My initial response to the sacking was like everyone else - shock, sad, crying, and complete lack of understanding. Why? This decision didn't make sense. It wasn't strictly results based - or it would have happened right after the Sheffield game. It wasn't to please the fans - in fact, it was hugely unpopular with the fans. Levy loved Poch. He was hugely appreciative of him, they were friends. It didn't make sense, and Levy usually makes sense, so I knew - there has to be something more.

With all those reports coming out, it seems that the sad truth is that Poch was, mentally, in no state to keep managing us. He's an emotional man, and those years were a rollercoaster. We've heard countless reports about how seriously he took that final. We all wanted him to be our Ferguson, but maybe emotionally he just needed some time away. Hell, as a fan, sometimes I feel this way too. It seems that during those "crisis talks", it became completely clear that Poch simply couldn't continue. Many said it's a "relief" for him. Yeah, it's extremely sad, but he's human too.

It's easy to regard those reports as "hit pieces" by ultimate **** Levy, but I don't think they are. In fact, I think Levy and the club deserves some praise that the information wasn't leaked earlier. A more "evil" chairman would have leaked stuff earlier, painted Poch's negatively for weeks so the decision will be well accepted. But Levy backed his man till the bitter end. And as always, he gets all the flack himself - because of a decision he made based on information we simply didn't know.



A replacement that shows ambition

Levy deserves some serious praise for the way he handled the replacement. He could've easily appointed someone like Eddie Howe, who would've taken whatever wage/transfer budget offered. But Levy went, and paid heavily, for the best available, and a manager that we know is very financially demanding. Levy always say we'll spend more after the stadium's done. He delivered last summer, and with getting Mou, he seems to indicate he'll keep doing it. Yeah, it's a damn shame it's not Poch finally getting that budget - but as we said, Poch was Levy's and everyone else's first choice, and it seems that mostly his own behavior and emotions have caused this terrible twist to happen.

I think Levy, contrary to popular belief, is actually one of the most ambitious chairmen in the league. He took a club that was hovering on 10-12th in the table, and started a huge, long term plan to get it to the top. It included everything: new youth academy, new facilities, training ground - all of the absolutely highest level in the world - and of course, new stadium. He's making us one of the top clubs, bit by bit, and we've almost just made it. Now, Levy knows, there's only one thing that separates us from the top: trophies. So he got in the best trophy-winning manager in the world.

Some say this is a short term appointment - but I see some long term thinking. It's all about changing our stigma, the way people think about our club. Right now it's "yeah they're great, but no trophies" - so Levy's out to change that. Even if Mourinho only lasts three years - as likely - winning some trophies in those years would put us in a position of a very desirable club for future managers and players.

Plus, it's a great reward to the likes of Kane who stuck by us, and at this point want to win stuff and probably don't have time for another "rebuilding" manager. Seeing Kane leave the club without winning anything would be a devastating blow, not just emotionally but to the club image and message for future players: "You won't win anything by staying loyal to Tottenham". We need to win stuff, and quick - this is essential for our long term plan.



But, why Poch wasn't backed previously? He didn't sign anyone a season ago!

Probably the number one criticism of Levy, and it's understood. It hurts. This Tottenham team is a miracle, but it's also had a huge tragedy: the tragedy of the worst fucking timing possible.

Do you remember why Poch was even hired in the first place? Levy was impressed with his youth raising abilities in Southampton. Other candidate - LVG - also a youth specialist. Levy knew we wouldn't spend a lot while building the stadium, so we had to raise our own. The plan was clear: get the proper facilities first, the world class team will follow. But there's one thing Levy didn't anticipate: the world class team arrived way too soon.

Insane stuff happened: Poch turned out to be a miracle worker, arguably the best striker in the world randomly spawned up in our academy, and a line of cheap deals - Dele, Eriksen, Jan, Toby, Lloris, Dembele - all turned out to be unbelieveable bargains. It was all great, that team was amazing, but didn't win anything. The fans saw the team and felt an opportunity for success. So suddenly Levy faced a new kind of pressure: Spend. Now.

In a way, Levy was a victim of his own success, of his own plan working too well, or rather - too quickly. The world class team arrived, before we had the financial capabilities to support it. This happened when our carefully-planned finance was still tight because of the stadium, and the original plan certainly didn't include a mid-stadium spending spree. So now Levy was facing a dilemma: cave to fan pressure, throw caution to the wind, spend heavily in an attempt to win something now while fucking up the long term financial plan. Or - stick with the original plan.

Levy's a fan, but also a businessman, he knew the risks and consequences. He did give some leeway - I doubt he originally planned to give anybody a 200k contract like Kane got - but mostly, he decided to stick to his plan. It's shitty, but it was probably the responsible decision at that delicate time.

And yeah, it sucks, and it fucking hurts. It hurts to see Liverpool - who just 2/3 years ago were equal, if not worse, to us, and see where they are now. But Liverpool were equal on the field, but not equal financially. They weren't building a fucking 900m stadium. Their revenue as a club is much bigger than us, and also they sold a player for 150m.

So that's the tragedy of shitty timing. Levy's a fan too, for longer than most of us were alive. He's been to his first Spurs game in the 60's. He devoted 20 years to this club. I don't think anyone here would be happier than Levy to see us win something. But he's also seeing the full picture, and he's constantly making the responsible, right decisions, even if they're wildly unpopular. And he's still unbelievably ambitious, but in the slow, "right" building way. You don't have to love him - but he deserves at least some serious respect, IMO.

Sorry for the rant, just another point of view.

TL;DR - Poch sacking, while tragic, was probably inevitable because of his emotional state. Mourinho appointment shows ambition, willingness to spend and to fix our biggest current problem - trophies. Lack of spending before was largely due to the plan working "too well" - world class team arrived ahead of schedule, while building the stadium, before the club could financially support it.

 

[sammyj]

100% in

 

[dagraham]

I put this in another thread but I'll throw it in here as well so people can read it, it's nicked from Reddit from r/coys from a dude called yaniv297, it's a quality read about our dear leader:

That is an excellent read and I agree with a lot of it. I think the decision had to be reluctantly made ( in fact hearing some of the ITK we’d heard for sometime and reading what has come out from a lot of sources in the last few days I wish we’d pulled the trigger after the Brighton game)

I also say fair play for bringing in such a high profile manager. I’ll admit it surprised me. It is a gamble, but a worthwhile one.

However, I won’t fully be behind ENIC until they actually loosen the purse strings. The above post talks of spending bigger once the stadium is done, but the proof will be in the pudding as they say.

I’ve been on SC since 2005 and I’ve lost count of the amount of transfer windows and different times at the club where various fans have come up with the argument that “this is the time we invest and back the manager” for various reasons.

I’ve never bought the argument from Poch that we need a total rebuild, but despite having a good squad we definitely need players ( even if the contract rebels end up staying). And if, for instance, we get to January to hear there are no funds then I will again question the commitment to really go all out to be the trophy winning club we should be. Particular in light of the Dybala situation in the summer, as it would make that out to be merely a cynical attempt to say we tried.

 

[Wsussexspur]

Jurys out.. appointing Mourinho was a bold move a signal of intent! However they need to show that they will back him in the transfer market two massive windows coming up for the club

 

[RichieS]

Personally not too fussed about the Net spend debate. We have spent a lot of money, but people don't see this as all they see is Net. For instance, we have broken our transfer record 4 times, in last 3 years and it doesn't matter what we have sold to negate our net spend.
It would be different if we were having to sell our best players every year to buy players. None of the players sold, have been a sale of one of our top players to fund other transfers. The £100mil or so we have recouped in player sales are all players that have not improved since leaving us, or gone on to bigger and better things, since the Bale, Modric and Berbatov sagas. Maybe exception of Walker, who obviously has won trophies, but wouldn't say he is a better player now than he was playing with us.

The fact of the matter is, we spend money but obviously we need to balance that with sales, because like all clubs that don't have an oil billionnaire as an owner, all are a business that have shareholders.
So in order to recoup more money to fund improving the playing staff, he has built the state of the art training facilities, promoted our club to top brands to get highly paid sponsorship deals, and built one of the best stadiums in the world.

Now here is where I am with Levy. If that has been done, and it now allows us to spend big on wages and fees etc in order to compete, then great, he needs to stay. If not, then we cannot realistically achieve the next level and compete with Man City, Chelsea etc on an uneven financial playing field.

So I am willing to give what the new stadium will offer us some time to reap rewards before I make a judgement on Levys motives on how he will use the extra income. Who knows what Levys vision is, but it is a vision that Mourinho is very excited about, as he has said that is what sold it to him to take the job. Along with being paid the 2nd most expensive manager in the league.

Maybe Levy really means it when he says he wants us to be one of the top clubs in the world.

 

[tttcowan]

Jurys out.. appointing Mourinho was a bold move a signal of intent! However they need to show that they will back him in the transfer market two massive windows coming up for the club

Exactly. We did the easy bit, getting Jose. Back him and it could work... Don't, and I'm not sure what the plan was. DOF would be good, can't see Levy giving him free reign given how his signings at United went down.

 

[RichieS]

Exactly. We did the easy bit, getting Jose. Back him and it could work... Don't, and I'm not sure what the plan was. DOF would be good, can't see Levy giving him free reign given how his signings at United went down.

Wasn't the whole issue at United transfer-wise that they weren't his signings? He wanted an experienced top-level CB (Aldwerweireld) and got Bailly and Andersen, for example. To some, I suppose that's Woodward "doing a Levy".

 

[sausage]

That's immaterial, Poch still spent 268 million on 13 players who have yet to make the grade.

Liverpool sold Coutinho and bought Alisson, VVD, and Shakiri for the money. It's a net spend of practically zero but took them up a level.

We were clever with our sales to generate 168 million but not with our incomings which was the problem.

Exactly. Little sense is rarely generated from the "net spend" debate, as it makes out that the only acceptable way to operate is at a loss.

If you sell Sissoko for £100m and buy Messi for £100m you'd have "zero net spend"*, but any chairman that manages to do that is surely a legend.

*as an aside, people only ever look at transfer costs and ignore the fact that deductions from incoming fees come from player pay-offs/bonuses/agent fees, and incoming fees have agent fees/contract values etc. added on. The calculations are simplistic and highly flawed.

 

[Shadydan]

That is an excellent read and I agree with a lot of it. I think the decision had to be reluctantly made ( in fact hearing some of the ITK we’d heard for sometime and reading what has come out from a lot of sources in the last few days I wish we’d pulled the trigger after the Brighton game)

I also say fair play for bringing in such a high profile manager. I’ll admit it surprised me. It is a gamble, but a worthwhile one.

However, I won’t fully be behind ENIC until they actually loosen the purse strings. The above post talks of spending bigger once the stadium is done, but the proof will be in the pudding as they say.

I’ve been on SC since 2005 and I’ve lost count of the amount of transfer windows and different times at the club where various fans have come up with the argument that “this is the time we invest and back the manager” for various reasons.

I’ve never bought the argument from Poch that we need a total rebuild, but despite having a good squad we definitely need players ( even if the contract rebels end up staying). And if, for instance, we get to January to hear there are no funds then I will again question the commitment to really go all out to be the trophy winning club we should be. Particular in light of the Dybala situation in the summer, as it would make that out to be merely a cynical attempt to say we tried.

Levy has already told Mourinho that there will be no funds available in January, understandable really seeing as the money has probably paid for compensation for Poch and Mourinho's contract

 

[dagraham]

Levy has already told Mourinho that there will be no funds available in January, understandable really seeing as the money has probably paid for compensation for Poch and Mourinho's contract

Is that just based on one article or multiple sources?

 

[Trix]

Is that just based on one article or multiple sources?

Hard to say. But either way it isn't true.

 

[Thewobbler]

My problem with this argument is he has spent 58 million on Janssen, GNK, and Sissoko.
110 million on Sanchez, Gazzaniga, Foyth, Aurier, Moura, and Llorente.
100 million on Sess, Lo Celso, Ndombele, and Clarke.

That's 268 million on an entire starting eleven, plus two subs, and not one is a nailed on first choice.

It's not the amount spent but his inability to adequately replace Walker/Dembele, and now Rose, Eriksen, Toby, and Jan that's been the problem as 268 million should have been more than enough for that.

Didnt the club have a transfer committee to identify targets. We passed on players like tielemans, pereria and maddison. We lost out on mane. Hopefully jose and his DOF sort these problems out in the future.

 

[Newbops]

Is that just based on one article or multiple sources?

Sky seem to have taken Mourinho's comment at the press conference that he didn't feel he needed to buy in January and turned it into 'there is no money to spend' and now it's being spurted out in all the Sky articles, debates etc. No new manager is going to go in 2 days before a game and say 'the team isn't good enough, I will need to buy in January'. New manager but same old narrative from Sky.

 

[Dougal]

 

[tiger666]

Idiots

 

[Dougal]

We’re not that creative with positive flags.

 

[sausage]

"To Dare Is Too Dear"

Literally the first game after committing over £50m to changing manager.

It's amazing how much effort people spend on activities that come from such a lack of mental capacity.