The beginning of the end...

[Jody]

Sorry if already posted. Interesting read.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...window-eriksen-vs-arsenal-derby-a9082976.html

 

[spids]

I think we’ve hit a bit of a stale period. Lots of things haven’t helped. The stadium situation for two years, the squad being allowed to grow stale over the last two years, and Poch’s seemingly battle with whether to stay or not. Throw in the contract situation of core squad members (Eriksen, Jan, Toby), the WC ‘no pre-season’, injury plagued campaign that saw us hit relegation form as we lost our way in terms of team shape and identity since February. Plus the CL final hangover. It’s all contributed to a massive slump and apathy.

Poch needs a clear the air session with Levy and the squad. Get the players to commit 100% to the new project, change up training routines and refresh everyone’s mindset. Go back to basics in terms of playing style and approach. Play a DCM. Press high and together. Drop those who don’t commit fully. We have top, top quality in our squad, and if the players are fit and motivated then we finish in the top 3.

 

[brendanb50]

No, I think Trix is basically saying that new contracts have been offered with good money on the table and it's Toby and Jan's fault that they haven't signed them.

Presumably Toby and Jan think they can get more money elsewhere.

That's the thing - they probably can and i don't hold it against them wanting to leverage that a bit. I also agree fully with your point that we're proactive with the deals we put on the table and regularly renew contracts to bolster player wages and ensure our contract security for another year or so. So far it's worked against Toby in my opinion playing this game (holding out for perhaps too much money - but that's up to him as to what he considers too much) and it may well work against Eriksen. I'm sure they'll make those losses back if they do go on a free but i'm sure we'll do all we can to avoid that.

I've avoided this meltdown of a thread because ultimately we're 3 games into a season, with some great new signings to integrate and some talent to come back. Poor game at the weekend and a less than impressive start generally but it's very early days.

These contract situations have been bubbling away for some time now and i think Poch has alluded to the fact that there's likely some work needed to right this. He has some tricky choices to make in terms of team selection - a lot of criticism seems to imply he should play players who are perhaps causing problems. In my view, nobody knows the exact nature of these issues so the criticism is very knee-jerk. If they're training hard and not sulking about then my view is regardless of the contract situation, they should be involved. If they're not training to the best of their ability, then i'm afraid someone who is gets to play. He has to set the right expectations for the team in my opinion. Ultimately none of us know the intricacies, just the bullet points of what these players and Poch are thinking/doing.

 

[Dougal]

So funny, I must be mistaken, but I thought I saw you mentioning that this thread only goes in circle repeating the same points over and over again. And then for a second, it almost seemed to me that there you were, repeating your same point yet again.

So what you’re saying is, I’m right.

 

[brendanb50]

Sorry if already posted. Interesting read.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...window-eriksen-vs-arsenal-derby-a9082976.html

I think it's possible we're seeing a bit of staleness creep into the picture for the first time since Poch took charge. I don't think that's an unreasonable assumption (although a little unfounded).

Perhaps it's where we go from here which will be the real measure of Poch's time with us (hopefully much longer yet). Can he rejuvenate the squad he has? Can he convince the club to invest more regularly in the squad to create competition, to create a surplus, even with top quality players? Can we integrate more youth into this equation now our standards are higher?

All big, big challenges for any manager. Dare i say we'll see the same with Klopp in a couple of years. Guardiola maybe less so as he can spend stupid money to do all the above regularly.

I have plenty of faith in Poch to meet these challenges head on. He's got some friction in the team at the moment which is counterproductive for all parties but he's an honest man and fair in his decision making. I'm sure the players involved are aware of where he stands on things. It's really down to him, the club and the player to decide on where it's going to end up. I feel as though in 1/2 cases, we already know.

 

[rossdapep]

I think it's possible we're seeing a bit of staleness creep into the picture for the first time since Poch took charge. I don't think that's an unreasonable assumption (although a little unfounded).

Perhaps it's where we go from here which will be the real measure of Poch's time with us (hopefully much longer yet). Can he rejuvenate the squad he has? Can he convince the club to invest more regularly in the squad to create competition, to create a surplus, even with top quality players? Can we integrate more youth into this equation now our standards are higher?

All big, big challenges for any manager. Dare i say we'll see the same with Klopp in a couple of years. Guardiola maybe less so as he can spend stupid money to do all the above regularly.

I have plenty of faith in Poch to meet these challenges head on. He's got some friction in the team at the moment which is counterproductive for all parties but he's an honest man and fair in his decision making. I'm sure the players involved are aware of where he stands on things. It's really down to him, the club and the player to decide on where it's going to end up. I feel as though in 1/2 cases, we already know.

Klopp knows that will happen. That's why he's supposedly taking a sabbatical in 2022.

I agree with this belief, you do have to have a serious freshening up. I wonder if Poch and Levy thought the youth (Edwards, Onomah, Carter Vickers) would be able to play some part of that and that's why there was no urgency to make wholesale changes.
I suppose you could look at the 2018 window and say the club and Poch totally fudged up (we knew that already though). I don't blame anyone too much, Poch was within his rights to only want certain players and it does seem that those players were simply out of our reach (De Jong, De Ligt).

Hopefully we can battle on, get top 4 and have a few more changes to make the team as fresh as possible.

 

[spursfan77]

To me that reads that there are a few problems, but nothing that can’t be sorted out

Really?

To me it sounds like there’s no problem at all and people are being overly dramatic.

 

[brendanb50]

Klopp knows that will happen. That's why he's supposedly taking a sabbatical in 2022.

I agree with this belief, you do have to have a serious freshening up. I wonder if Poch and Levy thought the youth (Edwards, Onomah, Carter Vickers) would be able to play some part of that and that's why there was no urgency to make wholesale changes.
I suppose you could look at the 2018 window and say the club and Poch totally fudged up (we knew that already though). I don't blame anyone too much, Poch was within his rights to only want certain players and it does seem that those players were simply out of our reach (De Jong, De Ligt).

Hopefully we can battle on, get top 4 and have a few more changes to make the team as fresh as possible.

Those particular young players becoming first-teamers may well have been something which may have factored into the longer-term planning 2-3 years ago. It's a shame it hasn't quite worked - for me, more first-team football was/is needed in all those cases.

It really goes to show that even with talent in those younger examples and our solid track record of generating pros from our youth set up, there really are no guarantees that that talent will transition to your first team.

Equally - some of our 'safe bet' targets as you mentioned were timed badly, i say safe bets in that both examples are players that would undoubtedly prove to be value in the long run or make their money back. As a club who spend significantly less than our rivals, you have to be willing to move on those players earlier. Especially when such obvious talent is there.

Hopefully the commercials now support a bit more activity and we can freshen up and add competition much more proactively.

 

[spursfan77]

Sorry if already posted. Interesting read.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...window-eriksen-vs-arsenal-derby-a9082976.html

That article is basically what I’ve been saying for the last 18 months. Annoying that muppet Delaney agrees with me.

 

[Nerine]

I’ve seen this very same team play about three times as well on a regular basis. We are now playing like crap.
Ergo, something has changed. It’s not like their ability has disappeared.

 

[rossdapep]

Another interesting point about Fergie. He didn't just change playing staff but he'd bring in new assistant coaches every few years to give the team a new voice and new methods. Something Poch may want to consider.

 

[rossdapep]

I’ve seen this very same team play about three times as well on a regular basis. We are now playing like crap.
Ergo, something has changed. It’s not like their ability has disappeared.

Energy.

 

[TheVoiceofReason]

I love Poch and this is ultimately his problem to fix. If he isn’t prepared to swallow his pride to bring the team back together then he needs to go. But I believe he can fix this.

 

[cjbyid]

Sorry if already posted. Interesting read.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...window-eriksen-vs-arsenal-derby-a9082976.html

Interesting. Bit about some players believing he'd leave in the summer caught my attention!

 

[homer hotspur]

That article is basically what I’ve been saying for the last 18 months. Annoying that muppet Delaney agrees with me.

yes, I think the article is very near the truth. It isn't one or two dramatic things but, rather, a natural build up over time, exasperated by the failure to freshen the squad and with the natural cycle of the original core team coming to its end.

 

[Maske2g]

He’s answered a question from someone with a (deserved) rant at social media for giving people the platform to make a crisis out of nothing. Mountain out of a molehill is the main gist I think.

Why is it deserved?

15 points in 15 games get managers sacked at this level. Redknapp was sacked after a run of 14 points in 14 games. The wins in this period have been marginal as well as the non wins. That's football. But ultimately 15 games is over a 3rd of a season and its relegation form.

I will say it again, there is no debate, at this level, 15 pts in 15 games gets managers sacked.

I'm not calling for a sacking, just stating a fact.

 

[Dougal]

Why is it deserved?

15 points in 15 games get managers sacked at this level. Redknapp was sacked after a run of 14 points in 14 games. The wins in this period have been marginal as well as the non wins. That's football. But ultimately 15 games is over a 3rd of a season and its relegation form.

I will say it again, there is no debate, at this level, 15 pts in 15 games gets managers sacked.

I'm not calling for a sacking, just stating a fact.

Clearly there is a debate or he’d be sacked? Something is keeping him in the job.

 

[Maske2g]

Ahhhh man this whole thing has totally made me lose interest for this season. Sort it out Spurs, it’s pathetic.

Now, reading the quote, it's absolutely nonsense. People have been the same forever. When things are happy and going well, no noise is made, everything chugs along nicely. When things are going shit, everyone wants to vent. And that is good for the mind. If the conversations were not had here, they are still being had between friends & families, in cafes, pubs and living rooms, as they have for decades. My dad doesn't use the internet, do you think he is not having these conversations too?. Twitter just gives a bigger audience to what everyone is thinking anyway.

 

[Japhet]

I think it's possible we're seeing a bit of staleness creep into the picture for the first time since Poch took charge. I don't think that's an unreasonable assumption (although a little unfounded).

Perhaps it's where we go from here which will be the real measure of Poch's time with us (hopefully much longer yet). Can he rejuvenate the squad he has? Can he convince the club to invest more regularly in the squad to create competition, to create a surplus, even with top quality players? Can we integrate more youth into this equation now our standards are higher?

All big, big challenges for any manager. Dare i say we'll see the same with Klopp in a couple of years. Guardiola maybe less so as he can spend stupid money to do all the above regularly.

I have plenty of faith in Poch to meet these challenges head on. He's got some friction in the team at the moment which is counterproductive for all parties but he's an honest man and fair in his decision making. I'm sure the players involved are aware of where he stands on things. It's really down to him, the club and the player to decide on where it's going to end up. I feel as though in 1/2 cases, we already know.

Couple of great posts there. My one concern is whether Poch really has the heart for it at this moment in time. He was getting increasingly tetchy throughout our prolonged dip in form last season and then went into full blown euphoria at the CL quarter and semi final stages, and then into full on sulk after the final defeat. It all seemed very bi-polar.

The pattern has continued with a poor start to the season and all the transfer shenanigens which seem to have upset him, when he really should be enthused by the fact that Levy has delivered the 3 players he most wanted. That seems to be overshadowed by whatever issues are going on behind the scenes. As I've said before, elite managers take this stuff in their stride and if that's where Poch thinks he is, he needs to shape up and get the team motivated and firing on all cylinders. He needs to stop all the cryptic press conference bullshit which is doing as much to rock the boat as anything else and show some of the loyalty he displayed when Levy left him high and dry time and again in the transfer market.

 

[wrd]

Sorry if already posted. Interesting read.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...window-eriksen-vs-arsenal-derby-a9082976.html

Highlights what a lot of us were saying during the 2018 summer transfer window which is that we will feel the effects of failing to add new faces long term and leave ourselves with too much of a mountain come 2019. People scoffed at the notion of adding 5-6 this summer but the reality is we needed to overcompensate for the summer before in terms of new personnel. Next summer will see huge changes now with the current contract situations.