The beginning of the end...

[Phomesy]

I didn't say we couldn't. It was an amazing game and possibly the best feeling I've had as a spurs fan. But don't blinker yourself into thinking we were the harlem globetrotters that night.

Jesus fucking Christ what kid of straw man bullshit is this?

We played some exceptional football to make a CL final. Don't blinker yourself into being a fucking numpty by suggesting otherwise.

FFs.

 

[Metalhead]

If he's lost the dressing room when it's full of players who by all accounts don't kick up a fuss and are pretty civil, I'd love to see how he planned on managing at United with bigger characters than us or even Madrid where the players have kicked out more managers than we've had fucking games at the new stadium

Has he definitely lost the dressing room?

 

[arunspurs]

637m is overall stadium debt that exists today too, why spend this summer then if that is the reason for not buying last summer? DL has also come out and said stadium does not affect transfer spend.

With the amount of money in PL transfer records are being broken pretty much all the time by clubs of all sizes. It means fuck all these days.

No question however that Poch needs to improve playing style.

When the transfer window closed in 2018/19 season, no one had a clue when stadium is going to finish or how much budget overrun will be. As per news reports in Oct 2018, we got a extra 237m loan owing to delays.
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...pending-debt-vs-manchester-city-a8608226.html

We had lost the projected revenue for last season. Once new revenue started kicking in, I dont think we had any problem in spending. Thats how I see it

 

[hakano]

When the transfer window closed in 2018/19 season, no one had a clue when stadium is going to finish or how much budget overrun will be. As per news reports in Oct 2018, we got a extra 237m loan owing to delays.
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...pending-debt-vs-manchester-city-a8608226.html

We had lost the projected revenue for last season. Once new revenue started kicking in, I dont think we had any problem in spending. Thats how I see it

So almost signing De Jong last summer was just a PR stunt?

 

[stevenurse]

Jesus fucking Christ what kid of straw man bullshit is this?

We played some exceptional football to make a CL final. Don't blinker yourself into being a fucking numpty by suggesting otherwise.

FFs.

Strawman? I only said that despite it being one of the greatest results in our history, it wasn't a brilliant performance. Is that so hard to understand?

As for it being as good football since you've been watching, fair play, that's your opinion. But in my opinion we've been capable of playing much better than that in recent times.

There isn't really an argument here. It's a matter of opinion at the end of the day.

 

[doctor stefan Freud]

Ok, quick question. Was Mourinho at the stadium on Sunday a typical thing: e.g out of work managers being accommodated at clubs that are concerned about their incumbent manager?

I’m really not a Mourinho fan and hope Poch sorts this problem out. But something has to give soon and @ValenciaYid has been clear today there are major issues currently with Poch.

This is wrecking my well-being

 

[arunspurs]

Ok, quick question. Was Mourinho at the stadium on Sunday a typical thing: e.g out of work managers being accommodated at clubs that are concerned about their incumbent manager?

I’m really not a Mourinho fan and hope Poch sorts this problem out. But something has to give soon and @ValenciaYid has been clear today there are major issues currently with Poch.

This is wrecking my well-being

Mourinho has been visiting many games of late. I believe he was in Fulham v Forest game on Saturday. So, non-starter.

 

[Flashspur]

We still have the same team that struggled last year, we still have many of the same injuries. We made one major signing early and then 2 on deadline day. Is there any reason to expect the weaknesses we had from not spending for years to be fixed in the first 3 games when our only effective signing was injured ? It’s as if people look at the amount spent and think it instantly translates to a different team. Well if all 3 had a full pre-season and were fit maybe that would be a more reasonable expectation but even then it seems super harsh to go all negative on our best manager since Bill Nick after just 3 games. It’s like his ridiculous achievements in 5 years count for nothing.

I think you make good points. The team suffered while the stadium was built. Was it Levy who failed to spend or was it Poch refusing to take inferior players on offer? Nevertheless the poor form stemming from a lean squad beset with injuries and coming off the WC caused a lot of the poor performances over the last season.

It’s a pity this thread turned into a giant venting against Poch. Yes he overachieved and has had to turn a sows ear into a silk purse because of the challenges already mentioned. However the PL has also moved on and I suspect that Poch has dropped the ball tactically. Man City and Liverpool look like better coached teams and that’s obvious to everyone. I suspect once the new recruits are included things will improve but it will be a tough season. Tactically this is a big year for Poch.

Too early for all the doom and gloom. I’d prefer to wait 10 games or more and see if we improve. If there are issues behind closed doors then we will soon see.

He has done incredibly well. Too early to be burning Poch or his legacy.

 

[JAYSTAR]

The simple fact is that the 433 formation and high press achieves more turnovers and more goal scoring opportunities. Poch has stubbornly stuck with a diamond or 4231 when we need to acknowledge which is most productive. I honestly think we need Sissoko to become our athletic ball carrying CDM with two creators in front:

Eriksen Kane Lucas
Ndombele Lo Celso
Sissoko

Or:
Son Parrott Lamela
Alli Winks
Dier
​

Poch needed to recognise why the full backs are so productive for Liverpool and City and it's because of the 3 attackers having the freedom to press and play narrow while the 3 in midfield win back the ball and set the attack going. Instead he focused on possession and then integrating the full backs as crossers of the ball into the packed box, which is far less productive. We have the personnel, we need a better strategist who has more than one idea.

​

 

[ostrov]

One minute everyone is bashing Levy because he’s gonna push poch out. 3 games later and everyone is trying to push poch out.

What a world

Nobody is trying to push Poch out, I hope. The question is: Does he want to be here? Does he still believe in the Spurs project?

 

[Bulletspur]

We can not dismiss the knock on effect last summers disastrous mismanagement from the very top has had

What mismanagement?

 

[fridgemagnet]

Its fucking truly unbelievable but its what ive just been told....

I haven't read the entire thread but have read some replies to this and I'm not questioning the validity of what you say.

I will always remember what David Ginola said about a season or three back* because it stuck with me and it's why I've always been cautious with some of the players we got linked with**.

He said his concern was the number of French/French speaking players; he said "the French we love to talk about everything; when everything is well we converse in mostly in English however when things aren't going so well they switch to French and the dressing room becomes cliquey and then you start to get problems"

I'm not saying that's what's happening or even if Ginola's views have any merit you may even think I'm looking for something that isn't there but our French speaking contingent increased with the two from PSG, Nkoudou was about (I forget if we had signed Sissoko at that point)
Can anyone remember if we tried to offload Aurier one summer/January window not long after we signed him only for him to stay due to injuries?

I'm deliberately leaving out Tanguy as this run of form was here prior to his arrival (albeit I hope we have him on a fast track English course) as if there's anything to this theory then the longer the English speaking players feel excluded from private jokes/1-on-1 chats with the gaffa/day to day chit chat etc the more un-harmonious things get. ***

* Ironically he was doing a pundit bit for SKY on the Newcastle vs Spurs game (Newcastle were in a relegation fight IIRC)
He was asked to give an opinion on the Newcastle issues (at they time they had a large French and African contingent)

** When we were getting linked all the time with French and Belgian players it made me very nervous.

*** Just to be clear I'm using not blaming the French as an excuse IMHO the English players would do well to learn another language (French for this arguments sake)

Sorry for the long post.

Just a final thing on Poch I know all things evolve but I do feel we have drifted away from having a core of young English players who would harry, press and be all over the opponents from the first whistle to the last.
I realise some thought that style isn't sustainable for a season in the PL with a small squad competing in 4 comps, I did wonder if that's why last season we noticeably played quicker in second half it was like it was a conscious thing saving energy/legs for later in the season; especially given the World Cup.
There's argument that we have had to go away from it and go foreign as we were/are priced out any true quality young English players or perhaps Poch just changed his mind.

 

[Mate]

That was one of the reasons.

It was never really clear whether he challenged Poch and got sidelined or he had been talking to City behind our back and Poch sidelined him. But I do know that Walker was gutted about leaving cause he made a big post about it and his son being upset about it. Who knows.

Part of it is explained in Poch's book.

Without knowing what happened prior, Walker came into Poch's office and stated that he wanted to leave at the end of the season (can't remember if he said to City), even though we still had a few games left to play. What really irritated Poch wasn't the transfer request but the timing of it, as he felt that it could have waited until the season had finished. This is why we saw Trippier get that run of games.

Also, this isn't the first time Walker got on the wrong side of Poch. I remember reading that after they all reported back for pre-season training (off the back of the 5-1 drubbing to Newcastle, ironically) Poch called a meeting with all the players to let them know exactly how he felt. Walker was the only one to arrive late and just sat down without apologising, and what was meant to be a meaningful discussion turned into a huge blowoff of steam.

 

[Sandros Shiny Head]

What mismanagement?

The myth that we didn't buy anyone because Levy couldn't be bothered

 

[Phomesy]

Strawman? I only said that despite it being one of the greatest results in our history, it wasn't a brilliant performance. Is that so hard to understand?

As for it being as good football since you've been watching, fair play, that's your opinion. But in my opinion we've been capable of playing much better than that in recent times.

There isn't really an argument here. It's a matter of opinion at the end of the day.

The straw man was you suggesting I had suggested we were playing "Harlem Globetrotter" shit.

Christ this is depressing. People are falling all over themselves to shit all over the Poch era. We made a fucking CL final. You don't do that unless you play some pretty fucking decent football along the journey.

What the fuck is wrong with our support base? So desperate to call the end of the world we pretend it happened even while we were making the biggest final in the club's history.

No wonder the new stadium is a dirge... Fuck me...

Edit - @stevenurse this rant wasn't aimed at you personally more an outburst by the growing number of people seemingly falling over themselves to do down everything Poch related at the moment. Just a moment of frustration...

 

[Wadec]

The straw man was you suggesting I had suggested we were playing "Harlem Globetrotter" shit.

Christ this is depressing. People are falling all over themselves to shit all over the Poch era. We made a fucking CL final. You don't do that unless you play some pretty fucking decent football along the journey.

What the fuck is wrong with our support base? So desperate to call the end of the world we pretend it happened even while we were making the biggest final in the club's history.

No wonder the new stadium is a dirge... Fuck me...

The issue is we did not make the final through playing well. We scraped through the quarters and semis. Whilst the final results of those games were incredible moments you have to surely accept that in all five games including the final we were poor.

Great moment at the end of each game and getting to the final, however there are justified reasons to be concerned based on our overall performances in 2019 coupled with a drop off in application and engagement levels from manager to players.

 

[SpartanSpur]

I'm fully behind Poch and hoping he can turn this around, but it's clear there are a lot of worrying things going on right now, you cant ignore that.

He fully deserves plenty of time for what he's done in the past but the question for me is whether he is actually up for it. I'm worried his heart isn't in this 'new chapter'. His press conferences seem to be getting worse and worse, all that stuff about walking around the CL Final being the pinnacle.

Things have to improve soon though, that is obvious. I and many others gave the poor league form in 2019 a bit of a pass due to the extenuating circumstances but 3 games in it's kinda looking to be more of the same. This is a major concern.

For months now we have been far too open defensively, a former strength of ours. Full back has been an issue and we have somehow pushed towards a diamond formation that completely exposes them! Energy levels are still way off our best. This can't still be fatigue so it must be a motivation issue.

I personally think Poch needs to go back to basics. I think he's been so keen to develop plan B-Z that plan A has completely deteriorated. Hence our consistently awful starts. He's been good at turning things around quite often but surley the best action is to nip it in the bud.

Spoiler: More thoughts

4-2-3-1 - high energy game, with suitable defensive cover in midfield. Creative players suited to the type of opposition (stop playing Moura up top against bus parkers for example, total waste of time). Get your ball players on against defensive sides and use your more direct players away against decent opposition.

However after taking a day to think I do feel we need to keep our powder dry for a while yet. Yesterday was like the worst of last season, but it basically WAS last years team. Even Ndombele missed out. The same flimsy midfield duo, the same issue of our depth attackers starting while our best attackers are out (eriksen and dele).

Dele - Newcastle game was made for him. Intelligent movement in the box and an aerial threat.

Dier - Its clear to me the Winks-Sissoko pairing is too lightweight. I'm thinking a more pure DM could be beneficial to us.

Davies - I think theres a reasonable argument that Davies would have covered Sanchez better on both the Villa and Newcastle goals. He is a more natural defender. Rose has got off a bit lightly in my opinion on both of those goals.

Eriksen - I think we will know he is better against a low block than Moura. Poor decision but obviously contract issues complicate things. Also:

Lo Celso - not up to speed yet, we need to see what he's made of. He should improve us offensively.

I still have faith in our squad, and faith in Poch. The question is whether a) he still has the desire and b) he has an answer to our defensive and offensive problems up his sleeve.

I really hope he can fix this and these alleged issues with the dressing room. Have to admit I have real concerns. Let's hope that come FT on the NLD we'll all be laughing at this thread! COYS

 

[Phomesy]

The issue is we did not make the final through playing well. We scraped through the quarters and semis. Whilst the final results of those games were incredible moments you have to surely accept that in all five games including the final we were poor.

Great moment at the end of each game and getting to the final, however there are justified reasons to be concerned based on our overall performances in 2019 coupled with a drop off in application and engagement levels from manager to players.

omg

@riggi you're right. We are the new Emirates. And we deserve it. Look what we've become... Fucking hell.

 

[Primativ]

The issue is we did not make the final through playing well. We scraped through the quarters and semis. Whilst the final results of those games were incredible moments you have to surely accept that in all five games including the final we were poor.

Great moment at the end of each game and getting to the final, however there are justified reasons to be concerned based on our overall performances in 2019 coupled with a drop off in application and engagement levels from manager to players.

Exactly. I don't get why people seem to just look at the occasion without context. Yes we got to a CL final, whoopeee fucking do. We got there with huge slices of luck, and let's be honest, we all knew we didn't stand a chance against Liverpool, because we were so shit on the way to the final. Our goal led an incredibly charmed life, not just against City and Ajax, but Dortmund too. We also only got out of the group, again to some desperate late goals, just like our league form, and Inter failing to beat PSV. We literally scraped all the way into the final. It was one of the most unconvincing cup runs I've ever witnessed. It was a rollercoaster of emotions and fantastic result wise because we kept getting through to the next round, but the actual performances....we were all over the place.

 

[Phomesy]

Exactly. I don't get why people seem to just look at the occasion without context. Yes we got to a CL final, whoopeee fucking do. We got there with huge slices of luck, and let's be honest, we all knew we didn't stand a chance against Liverpool, because we were so shit on the way to the final. Our goal led an incredibly charmed life, not just against City and Ajax, but Dortmund too. We also only got out of the group, again to some desperate late goals, just like our league form, and Inter failing to beat PSV. We literally scraped all the way into the final. It was one of the most unconvincing cup runs I've ever witnessed. It was a rollercoaster of emotions and fantastic result wise because we kept getting through to the next round, but the actual performances....we were all over the place.

Do you have any idea what a soft, entitled, whinging, moaning, non-supporting, ungrateful, unrealistic, and utterly joyless little **** of a supporter this makes you sound like?

And the new stadium is full of it. No one singing. No one bursting with pride and hope and joy for a new season.

Just a bunch of maoning twats, moaning about how shit we were on our way to a Champions League final. And wanting to sack the manager after 3 games - one of which was a point away to City.

We reap what we sow. And we are sowing some pretty fucking horrible seeds right now.

Can you all fuck off out of the South stand and give us our Park Lane back please?

SMH