Poch...Please stop playing 4231

[Everlasting Seconds]

My point being, there is way more than just one match over the last 12 months to counter the '4-2-3-1 is shit' argument, like how we scored 1.95 goals per game from January till the end of last season. On the contrary you could point out how we were insipid turd playing three at the back against Villa until switching to 4-2-3-1 won us the game.

Different games suit different formations and tactical approaches, there is no one definitive approach for every game. Which is why this thread is kinda silly.

Well, yes and no. The premise for this thread is the opposite of what you are alluding to. That there is a definitive approach to be avoided for every game. And in that, I believe this thread is highly valid. If we suppose that it is correct that there is one approach to be shunned, that wouldn't suggest that there is only one correct approach out there.

 

[nightgoat]

Well, yes and no. The premise for this thread is the opposite of what you are alluding to. That there is a definitive approach to be avoided for every game. And in that, I believe this thread is highly valid. If we suppose that it is correct that there is one approach to be shunned, that wouldn't suggest that there is only one correct approach out there.

But it would be foolish to completely shun a formation that resulted in our highest PL finish last season and has continued to demonstrate this season that there are certain situations where it is preferable to playing three at the back.

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

But it would be foolish to completely shun a formation that resulted in our highest PL finish last season and has continued to demonstrate this season that there are certain situations where it is preferable to playing three at the back.

That presupposes that the formation can't be ineffective and lead to a win at the same time. This isn't a new idea for me, I've spent years now speculating that 4231 is in it's nature ineffective, in the sense that it doesn't release the full potential, even when we do win. I think the entire 4231 will simply die out and become a historic anecdote.

 

[ralphs bald spot]

That presupposes that the formation can't be ineffective and lead to a win at the same time. This isn't a new idea for me, I've spent years now speculating that 4231 is in it's nature ineffective, in the sense that it doesn't release the full potential, even when we do win. I think the entire 4231 will simply die out and become a historic anecdote.

Football is not really about formations its more the way they are interpeted and how the players perform in them

The funny thing is you mention 4-2-3-1 dying out much the same as 3 at the back and wing backs had

 

[nightgoat]

That presupposes that the formation can't be ineffective and lead to a win at the same time. This isn't a new idea for me, I've spent years now speculating that 4231 is in it's nature ineffective, in the sense that it doesn't release the full potential, even when we do win. I think the entire 4231 will simply die out and become a historic anecdote.

Formations are in a constant state of evolution anyway. 442 was supposed to have died out decades ago. Besides, if a change in formation changes a losing position into a winning or drawing one then it has been effective.

 

[tttcowan]

Formations are not important, systems are etc.

Now we've got that out of the way. I think the major problem that's making it look particularly bad at the moment is the way we ask Wanyama to play in it.

Last year Dier would regularly drop into defence to form a back 3. And also provided an effective threat in the final 3rd while being able to ping a ball now and then.

Now, Wanyama has been bloody brilliant as DM. But he doesn't play the position like Dier. He doesn't drop into defence. And he doesn't provide forward progression like Dier can. Would like to see more rotation depending on the game between them 2 if we're going to persist with this formation.

As a side note if we're playing Dembele and Wanyama in the middle of the park I'd much rather have a slow left wing back in Davies and 3 at the back. Especially against teams like Liverpool.

 

[tiger666]

That presupposes that the formation can't be ineffective and lead to a win at the same time. This isn't a new idea for me, I've spent years now speculating that 4231 is in it's nature ineffective, in the sense that it doesn't release the full potential, even when we do win. I think the entire 4231 will simply die out and become a historic anecdote.

So what exactly is it about 4-2-3-1 that's ineffective that you've spotted and top flight managers haven't? And no, generalising with ppg isn't enough. Specific details.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Formations are not important, systems are etc.

Now we've got that out of the way. I think the major problem that's making it look particularly bad at the moment is the way we ask Wanyama to play in it.

Last year Dier would regularly drop into defence to form a back 3. And also provided an effective threat in the final 3rd while being able to ping a ball now and then.

Now, Wanyama has been bloody brilliant as DM. But he doesn't play the position like Dier. He doesn't drop into defence. And he doesn't provide forward progression like Dier can. Would like to see more rotation depending on the game between them 2 if we're going to persist with this formation.

As a side note if we're playing Dembele and Wanyama in the middle of the park I'd much rather have a slow left wing back in Davies and 3 at the back. Especially against teams like Liverpool.

I hate this silly cliche, it's bullshit, even when managers spout it they don't really believe it, because every single one of them uses formations, if they weren't important they wouldn't be so rigorously adhered to by managers of all hues when trying to achieve a tactical goal.

What's true is they are just one facet of an overall tactical package. They provide a default structure for a team without the ball for a start, which is vital. They are fluid, but that fluidity is only as good as the intelligent application of them by managers and their players.

The formation, or tactical structure, is one of the things Poch got wrong at the weekend (pushing Son right up next to Kane) and it had a knock on effect to our total performance, left the flanks exposed, particularly our left, where Son should have been if we'd played a traditional 4231, which we didn't (@Hoops ) we played some kind of 442 Diamond which I think looked something like this in practice:

Lloris
RB-------CB---------CB--------LB
Wanyama
--------------------------Dembele
Eriksen-----------------
Alli
Kane------Son
​

The stuff about Wanyama is also pretty pretty wrong. He makes double the key passes, creates double the chances and 5 times the take-ons (driving us forward) than Dier did per 90 last season, and is one of the biggest reasons we have been better in every way, defensively and offensively (even aesthetically) this season, because not only is he more more dynamically tenacious, meaning no defensive compromise, he's also a more progressive footballer than the much more staid Dier.

 

[Hoops]

I hate this silly cliche, it's bullshit, even when managers spout it they don't really believe it, because every single one of them uses formations, if they weren't important they wouldn't be so rigorously adhered to by managers of all hues when trying to achieve a tactical goal.

What's true is they are just one facet of an overall tactical package. They provide a default structure for a team without the ball for a start, which is vital. They are fluid, but that fluidity is only as good as the intelligent application of them by managers and their players.

The formation, or tactical structure, is one of the things Poch got wrong at the weekend (pushing Son right up next to Kane) and it had a knock on effect to our total performance, left the flanks exposed, particularly our left, where Son should have been if we'd played a traditional 4231, which we didn't (@Hoops ) we played some kind of 442 Diamond which I think looked something like this in practice:

Lloris
RB-------CB---------CB--------LB
Wanyama
--------------------------Dembele
Eriksen-----------------
Alli
Kane------Son
​

The stuff about Wanyama is also pretty pretty wrong. He makes double the key passes, creates double the chances and 5 times the take-ons (driving us forward) than Dier did per 90 last season, and is one of the biggest reasons we have been better in every way, defensively and offensively (even aesthetically) this season, because not only is he more more dynamically tenacious, meaning no defensive compromise, he's also a more progressive footballer than the much more staid Dier.

Absolute gash. Wanyama is garbage in oppo half

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Absolute gash. Wanyama is garbage in oppo half

And Dier's Totti ? Get a grip. Wanyama makes double key passes and double chances than Dier, so if Wanyama's garbage, what does that say about Dier?

One minute you seem to be suggesting Dier's better defensively (with his superior dropping in between the CB's and whatnot) then he's better offensively, but this season we've scored more, conceded less and have more points, and this despite being without Kane, Alderwireld, Vertonghen, Rose, Lamela and Dembele for big chunks of the season.

You're talking out your arse and there is no anecdotal or statistical evidence that supports your arse's view.

 

[SpursDave88]

BC is bang on - the problem was the diamond system we played on Saturday, it meant Davies was more or less constantly 2 Vs 1, one of the worst tactical performances I have seen.

 

[tttcowan]

And Dier's Totti ? Get a grip. Wanyama makes double key passes and double chances than Dier, so if Wanyama's garbage, what does that say about Dier?

One minute you seem to be suggesting Dier's better defensively (with his superior dropping in between the CB's and whatnot) then he's better offensively, but this season we've scored more, conceded less and have more points, and this despite being without Kane, Alderwireld, Vertonghen, Rose, Lamela and Dembele for big chunks of the season.

You're talking our your arse and there is no anecdotal or statistical evidence that supports your arse's view.

Anyway, enough of this. We all know the real reason we were crap. Walker.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Anyway, enough of this. We all know the real reason we were crap. Walker.

The best RB in the known universe? How very dare you.

 

[Hoops]

So we go back to 343 and 1-0 in 10 mins and looking like a team again.



Neg me someone.

 

[Hoops]

then we switch to 4231 and we concede. shocking

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

There's a match thread.