Player Watch - Tanguy Ndombele

[HedgieSpur]

I think that he would pass well, I just don't think he is mobile enough. I just can't see him being that kind of player who makes runs beyond kane, or is moving through channels, like maybe I'm wrong.

I agree with you BUT, I think Son and Bergwijn should be running beyond Kane and taking the ball in the channels anyway. They are both quick and skilful and should be utilised as our channel runners.

Ndombele would instead be lurking around the penalty spot looking to pick up rebounds and clearances etc

 

[LeParisien]

@thekneaf @rossdapep



It’s in French but a good video of his performance against man city in the CL for Lyon. As someone who coached, he’s a joy to watch. He does all those things you want from your midfielders effortlessly - body position, good weight distribution off both feet, plays with his head up before he gets the ball (so he knows where everyone is), comfortable with both feet, his first touch is not just to control the ball (think Sissoko) but to do something useful with it (move it into space anywhere on the 360, dribble, pass..).

But then also elite qualities like..
- the weight of pass is always spot on
- intelligent movement into space off the ball
- he can process information very quickly and anticipate where players will be in 3 seconds
- he’s happy to take on a man (enthusiastic even) which means it’s hard to know how tight to get as a defender.

Also he doesn’t give you that sterile possession you can get from winks. In French we say that he plays with verticalité. Always trying to play on the front foot and with the vision, balance and technique to pull it off.

He is a coaches’ dream and whilst he’s got a way to go he reminds me a lot of Paul Scholes. One thing he lacks is his aggression (hospital tackles) but there are so many similarities. God I loved watching scholes play.

Those saying he doesn’t have what it takes in the EPL are talking rubbish honestly. It’s just that old “wet and windy day at stoke” nonsense trotted out again. Stick a ball winner next to him and play him as an 8 and he will run games.

 

[C0YS]

@thekneaf @rossdapep



It’s in French but a good video of his performance against man city in the CL for Lyon. As someone who coached, he’s a joy to watch. He does all those things you want from your midfielders effortlessly - body position, good weight distribution off both feet, plays with his head up before he gets the ball (so he knows where everyone is), comfortable with both feet, his first touch is not just to control the ball (think Sissoko) but to do something useful with it (move it into space anywhere on the 360, dribble, pass..).

But then also elite qualities like..
- the weight of pass is always spot on
- intelligent movement into space off the ball
- he can process information very quickly and anticipate where players will be in 3 seconds
- he’s happy to take on a man (enthusiastic even) which means it’s hard to know how tight to get as a defender.

Also he doesn’t give you that sterile possession you can get from winks. In French we say that he plays with verticalité. Always trying to play on the front foot and with the vision, balance and technique to pull it off.

He is a coaches’ dream and whilst he’s got a way to go he reminds me a lot of Paul Scholes. One thing he lacks is his aggression (hospital tackles) but there are so many similarities. God I loved watching scholes play.

Those saying he doesn’t have what it takes in the EPL are talking rubbish honestly. It’s just that old “wet and windy day at stoke” nonsense trotted out again. Stick a ball winner next to him and play him as an 8 and he will run games.

He's talented for sure.

I would argue that short sideways passes are not always 'sterile possesion' if you are their to hold, you shouldn't be playing risky passes. This isn't the 90s, football isn't played like a basket ball game! A holding player needs to take the ball deep, and under pressure and find the free man.

n'dombele plays a very different role, and is very talented attacking wise and has some unique traits. He is not a positional player though, and while question by Jose, another issue he faces is that he is fundamentally competing with Lo Celso for a position. If Jose wanted to be a bit more adventurous and swap Sissoko for N'dombele there might be space for both. But, Jose cares too much for solidity to make that happen. It's great he has all the attributes but how is he in doing the boring stuff like, positional defensive play, making the right pass, not always the most exciting one! which is very often a boring sideways one. Can he be relied on to maintain team structure, etc.

He is suited to the PL, but he needs to be more disciplined, reliable and also get used to the pace. This isn't questioning his attitude. I have no idea if that is an issue, and I am not going to guess. But I do know, that Jose and even Poch never fully trusted him. He has a lot to work on, but a managers dream is stretching it a bit far. The way Lyon set up, clearly allowed him to play in a particular way that suited his strengths and weaknesses. We are not going to do that here. Having said that, I am certain he has everything he needs to be a success here.

 

[double0]

He is extremely talented. Mourinho needs to fashion a way of getting him more involved. I believe Ndombele can play into form if we keep him in the team because at the moment his not getting minutes.

 

[ljinko888]

In my opinion Mourinho's biggest problem to overcome with the new generation of players is he's stuck in an old mindset where fragility and shyness in a player is a weakness and to build them up they need to be get tough treatment off the pitch. But things would be more successful in building them up by just playing them and let them gain confidence and stature through their football. Old timers always moan "where's the leaders gone!" but the players who shout and act hard on the pitch these days are only doing it to compensate for their lack of ability. Yes in the past there were great players who were big characters too but today the players who win you games let their play do the talking.

He never really took to Martial but Solskjaer puts his arm around him, starts him every game and reaping the rewards because he's an extremely gifted player.

 

[LeParisien]

He's talented for sure.

I would argue that short sideways passes are not always 'sterile possesion' if you are their to hold, you shouldn't be playing risky passes. This isn't the 90s, football isn't played like a basket ball game! A holding player needs to take the ball deep, and under pressure and find the free man.

n'dombele plays a very different role, and is very talented attacking wise and has some unique traits. He is not a positional player though, and while question by Jose, another issue he faces is that he is fundamentally competing with Lo Celso for a position. If Jose wanted to be a bit more adventurous and swap Sissoko for N'dombele there might be space for both. But, Jose cares too much for solidity to make that happen. It's great he has all the attributes but how is he in doing the boring stuff like, positional defensive play, making the right pass, not always the most exciting one! which is very often a boring sideways one. Can he be relied on to maintain team structure, etc.

He is suited to the PL, but he needs to be more disciplined, reliable and also get used to the pace. This isn't questioning his attitude. I have no idea if that is an issue, and I am not going to guess. But I do know, that Jose and even Poch never fully trusted him. He has a lot to work on, but a managers dream is stretching it a bit far. The way Lyon set up, clearly allowed him to play in a particular way that suited his strengths and weaknesses. We are not going to do that here. Having said that, I am certain he has everything he needs to be a success here.

I agree that sideways passing is not always sterile possession. Youth teams outside of academies play frantic, end-to-end football. The best teams have a measure of control and can dominate games by being comfortable with it and circulating possession. All good teams need that in their locker to take the sting out of a game eg when they take a lead.

I didn’t mean it as a criticism of Winks really. More that Winks doesn’t have the verticality that Ndombélé has and that Ndombélé can also play the safer game too. Winks doesn’t have the mental processing that Tanguy has. The best players do and that’s why time seems to stand still for them - they have impeccable technique and see things quicker. But if we have just taken the lead in a champions league game I might prefer to have winks on to kill the game. Conversely if we want quick transitions then Tanguy could be a key component.

A lot of the comments you make are really strategic or tactical particularities of Mourinho. Perhaps there are players another great manager would love and Mourinho would not. That seems plausible. Ndombélé might just not be part of Mourinhos vision for spurs. But for my money that would be a shame because he is so talented and quite a rare player. Harry Redknapp would make room for him. Many managers would. Fans would love to see Ndombélé have an important role because he plays good football and makes things happen. It’s simply not true that he makes Hollywood passes instead of the “right” pass. He just doesn’t make a safe pass if an attacking opportunity is on. And he’s able to see and execute those attacking passes. Most players aren’t.

My view is that you incorporate world class players into your team if they’re willing to work hard. Ndombélé isn’t there yet but he has that ceiling if managed right. I don’t see any signs of attitude problems so I think he should be found a role. And I think mourinho will do that. I see a happy ending here despite the nerves of fans.

 

[C0YS]

I agree that sideways passing is not always sterile possession. Youth teams outside of academies play frantic, end-to-end football. The best teams have a measure of control and can dominate games by being comfortable with it and circulating possession. All good teams need that in their locker to take the sting out of a game eg when they take a lead.

I didn’t mean it as a criticism of Winks really. More that Winks doesn’t have the verticality that Ndombélé has and that Ndombélé can also play the safer game too. Winks doesn’t have the mental processing that Tanguy has. The best players do and that’s why time seems to stand still for them - they have impeccable technique and see things quicker. But if we have just taken the lead in a champions league game I might prefer to have winks on to kill the game. Conversely if we want quick transitions then Tanguy could be a key component.

A lot of the comments you make are really strategic or tactical particularities of Mourinho. Perhaps there are players another great manager would love and Mourinho would not. That seems plausible. Ndombélé might just not be part of Mourinhos vision for spurs. But for my money that would be a shame because he is so talented and quite a rare player. Harry Redknapp would make room for him. Many managers would. Fans would love to see Ndombélé have an important role because he plays good football and makes things happen. It’s simply not true that he makes Hollywood passes instead of the “right” pass. He just doesn’t make a safe pass if an attacking opportunity is on. And he’s able to see and execute those attacking passes. Most players aren’t.

My view is that you incorporate world class players into your team if they’re willing to work hard. Ndombélé isn’t there yet but he has that ceiling if managed right. I don’t see any signs of attitude problems so I think he should be found a role. And I think mourinho will do that. I see a happy ending here despite the nerves of fans.

Winks right now is playing a number 6, N'domebele is not a number 6, The roles are incomparable. This sentence is not keeping in mind what is their function for the team.

I fully believe Ndombele can be part of the future here, and ofcourse there are stratagies where he would be playing a lot more, but there is no reason to think he can't become a great useful player here. He is a rare rare talent and I look forward to see him succeed, but it might take time is all.

Again, against Bournemouth he wasn't making the right pass, when making the simple pass he would be overhitting/under hitting and slow play down. But, that was one weakness in a game I thought he did fairly well in. But even this is ok, because he isn't going to be playing a number 6.

The bigger issue is he is currently competing against Lo Celso, and he is going to struggle to displace him. He is also competing against Sissoko, on a lesser level, but currently the manager would rather keep Sissoko for the balance of the team.

I think first he needs to show that he is good enough to be found a role, and at the moment he hasn't quite shown that yet. His performances here are currently filled with good moments but not good games. His current place in the team is as an option from the bench to bring on when we are chasing a game, and someone to come in if Lo Celso is out. If he does well in that role, and shows a lot then we can start talking about changing the team for him.

I suspect Harry might try and find a place for him too, he was more about putting the right players in the right position and letting the team play. But, he would have to back that trust with good performances over 90 minutes, not just a nice move here and there.

Thing is, we don't really disagree. We both think there is a future for him here and both think he has everything he needs to succeed, but it might take time is all.

 

[$hoguN]

This is what a lot of us have been calling for so it's music to our ears. Honestly, I think you can make a case for selling Dele at this point, but Jose does appear to love what he offers. Perhaps you do a 4-3-1-2 with Dele in the 1, playing off Kane and Son.

--------- Hojbjerg ---------
Ndombele --- Lo Celso ---
----------- Dele ------------
Kane ------------- Son ----

That only works if you’re fullbacks aren’t suspect as fuck like Aurier is. Otherwise everyone ends up knackered at the 60 min mark as diamond formations require a lot of discipline to execute

 

[emiley heskey]

That only works if you’re fullbacks aren’t suspect as fuck like Aurier is. Otherwise everyone ends up knackered at the 60 min mark as diamond formations require a lot of discipline to execute

What is the difference between 433 and diamond 41212 formation?

 

[Zippy1980]

@thekneaf @rossdapep



It’s in French but a good video of his performance against man city in the CL for Lyon. As someone who coached, he’s a joy to watch. He does all those things you want from your midfielders effortlessly - body position, good weight distribution off both feet, plays with his head up before he gets the ball (so he knows where everyone is), comfortable with both feet, his first touch is not just to control the ball (think Sissoko) but to do something useful with it (move it into space anywhere on the 360, dribble, pass..).

But then also elite qualities like..
- the weight of pass is always spot on
- intelligent movement into space off the ball
- he can process information very quickly and anticipate where players will be in 3 seconds
- he’s happy to take on a man (enthusiastic even) which means it’s hard to know how tight to get as a defender.

Also he doesn’t give you that sterile possession you can get from winks. In French we say that he plays with verticalité. Always trying to play on the front foot and with the vision, balance and technique to pull it off.

He is a coaches’ dream and whilst he’s got a way to go he reminds me a lot of Paul Scholes. One thing he lacks is his aggression (hospital tackles) but there are so many similarities. God I loved watching scholes play.

Those saying he doesn’t have what it takes in the EPL are talking rubbish honestly. It’s just that old “wet and windy day at stoke” nonsense trotted out again. Stick a ball winner next to him and play him as an 8 and he will run games.

Before he ‘runs’ games he needs to run himself.

 

[C0YS]

What is the difference between 433 and diamond 41212 formation?

It is about width, a diamond has very little width a 4-3-3 has quite a lot of it.

Basically. A diamond is all about trying to find a way to not be outnumbered in midfield and still play two up front. It's weakness is space out wide. A mixture of intelligent full backs and covering midfielders is needed to make this work. If not well organised, the team ends up being stretched and it can go wrong. Poch liked to play the diamond, it didn't work for this reason. Too much space out wide, midfield gets stretched. You really need tactically capable defensive players to play 3 of the midfield roles.

The diamond isn't very popular and isn't played by any big team atm, that's not to say it cant work though. In the late 2000s the diamond was very popular in Serie A (or the more experimental and interesting 4-3-2-1 variation), in fact it was the go to formation there until Conte pushed the 3-5-2, though it continued and even regained some popularity around 2015.

So, what happened. Well. Essentially between 08-16ish tiki-taka based football was the big thing. I mean no one really was able to replicate Barca's high intensity offensive system but the Spanish national team had a more balanced variation of the 08 Spain and Barca more intense variation. Many teams now focused on possession = winning games, pretty much everyone moved to a midfield 5. The other thing is wingers were no longer in fashion. Looking particularly at Spain, and even Barcelona, the width would come from the fullbacks, and the wingers would be inverted. In the Spain team the wingers, were not wingers at all, but actually extra playmakers, in Iniesta and Silva. Wingers were inverted or replaced by traditionally central playmakers playing out wide.

How do you beat this system? Well the 4-3-1-2 was seen as a kind of solution. Having two strikers meant you could play a bit more directly without worrying about being outnumbered in midfield. Having 2 defensive minded midfielders, maybe one box to box, and a more play making defensive player in the centre made the midfield really tough to break through. The point of that midfield tended to be a technically apt number 10, or sometimes a more offensively minded number 8 who would also contributed to suffocating space in the centre. Just like a 4-2-3-1 the fullbacks would provide the width, and without out and out wingers the fullbacks were not likely to be exposed, and wide players would find it hard to find players in the congested middle anyway. Meanwhile, three central attacking players allowed for the ball to be moved forward quickly, allowing less technical teams a way to go toe to toe with more tiki-taka ones.

This isn't football anymore. With pressing and counter attacking football getting into fashion quick capable wingers became in vogue again, and while the wingers were still technically 'inverted', pace and creating overloads on the flank came to be more in fashion. Almost every team began playing with a high line, were being compact and pressing space became a way for even lower mid table teams to defend. Pace was a way through this block. Wide men became fashionable again and the best teams now play with two players with pace from the flanks. Similarly, those players on the flanks became more like forwards and less involved in build up, but more about finishing chances or assisting. At the same time, winning the battle in the midfield isn't a priority anymore, now the more common tactic is to play a high-ish block and limit the space for teams to pass through. So the 4-3-1-2 is fighting to match up to a midfield that doesn't really exist anymore, while the space in the flanks become more of an issue. It's an attractive formation, but at the moment both 3-5-2 at the back and 4-4-2 seem like better ways to get two strikers on the pitch.

A 4-3-3 has 4 wide players, and is really just a slightly deeper 4-2-3-1. The main differences is in a 4-3-3 the wide players tend to be more attackers, not midfielders and the n.10 transforms into an attacking n.8. Under Poch we would often play 3 number tens (Lamela, Eriksen and Dele) in a 4-2-3-1, that can work, in a 4-3-3 that would be a bit unusual. Plenty of examples of this. The main thing though is, in a 4-3-3 you are playing four wide men, and the two wide players can clearly defensively focus on pinning back fullbacks and tracking back when they do get forwards. In a diamond that work has to be done by the midfielders without creating too many gaps in the central areas. That can be real tricky!

 

[emiley heskey]

It is about width, a diamond has very little width a 4-3-3 has quite a lot of it.

Basically. A diamond is all about trying to find a way to not be outnumbered in midfield and still play two up front. It's weakness is space out wide. A mixture of intelligent full backs and covering midfielders is needed to make this work. If not well organised, the team ends up being stretched and it can go wrong. Poch liked to play the diamond, it didn't work for this reason. Too much space out wide, midfield gets stretched. You really need tactically capable defensive players to play 3 of the midfield roles.

The diamond isn't very popular and isn't played by any big team atm, that's not to say it cant work though. In the late 2000s the diamond was very popular in Serie A (or the more experimental and interesting 4-3-2-1 variation), in fact it was the go to formation there until Conte pushed the 3-5-2, though it continued and even regained some popularity around 2015.

Madrid played this formation in their ucl winning campaign and also to some extent this year with casemiro as the holding , modric, kross. valverde in midfield two and infront of them is isco and benzema , cr7 as striker ...

 

[holmesy]

unfortunately, I think we have seen the last of him in a Spurs shirt...
The recent Jose video, just enforces my belief... He wants players to run through walls, from what it looks like from what i have seen of him, he simply doesn't have the work rate in comparisons against moussa, gio etc

If you can get him going, hell of a player - shame its not worked out

(i hope I'm wrong by the way)

 

[$hoguN]

What is the difference between 433 and diamond 41212 formation?

Is this a serious question?

One formation you have width as you have 3 starting upfront, the other you don’t and you count on your fullbacks to get forward but that places a large emphasis on the midfield covering gaps.

The diamond was shambolic under Pochettino as we never got the balance of who stays and who goes forward right. it meant that even Sissoko was complaining about being shattered before half time. The stupidity of not understanding the physical demands of a formation and implementing the right tactical approach to offset it is largely what cost Pochettino his job and oversaw us crashing the last couple of years

 

[C0YS]

In my opinion Mourinho's biggest problem to overcome with the new generation of players is he's stuck in an old mindset where fragility and shyness in a player is a weakness and to build them up they need to be get tough treatment off the pitch. But things would be more successful in building them up by just playing them and let them gain confidence and stature through their football. Old timers always moan "where's the leaders gone!" but the players who shout and act hard on the pitch these days are only doing it to compensate for their lack of ability. Yes in the past there were great players who were big characters too but today the players who win you games let their play do the talking.

He never really took to Martial but Solskjaer puts his arm around him, starts him every game and reaping the rewards because he's an extremely gifted player.

I don't completely disagree, but Martial was from 20 to 22 under Jose, and he played a lot! He is now 24, he might have, you know, just followed typical career progression between those years.

 

[DEFchenkOE]

That only works if you’re fullbacks aren’t suspect as fuck like Aurier is. Otherwise everyone ends up knackered at the 60 min mark as diamond formations require a lot of discipline to execute

Yea I would say in a diamond the full backs are probably the most important players, they need to be able to defend and attack equally well. They need pace and have to be extremely fit to get up and down and basically "own" the flank. There are only a few full backs capable of doing this and we don't have any of them.

 

[C0YS]

Madrid played this formation in their ucl winning campaign and also to some extent this year with casemiro as the holding , modric, kross. valverde in midfield two and infront of them is isco and benzema , cr7 as striker ...

Yeh, they've played it as an option a few times. This year they have played it a total of 1 single time.

But even the diamond has not been universally well liked, because they have struggled defending down the flanks with it.

 

[$hoguN]

Yeh, they've played it as an option a few times. This year they have played it a total of 1 single time.

But even the diamond has not been universally well liked, because they have struggled defending down the flanks with it.

Good teams that have attacking full backs will always savagely bum you if you play a diamond as there are so many opportunities to get two on one out wide and swing in dangerous crosses

 

[C0YS]

Good teams that have attacking full backs will always savagely bum you if you play a diamond as there are so many opportunities to get two on one out wide and swing in dangerous crosses

Yeh and Madrid are ideally suited to playing that. They have a very mobile forward line and Isco, who can do many things and runs a lot. And people like Benzema who can press out wide etc. Their CL success, despite their league patchyness has happened through a mixture of force of will and having very very good players. Madrid could play most formations and do well, and again, being compact in midfield, allowing them to dictate the game, while helping get the best out of a strong forward line, it does make sense. Particularly when you have the technique and energy that real madrid had in midfield. Most teams don't have that. Madrid were also able to play a 4-4-2 in a way that most clubs wouldn't get away with at all!

A diamond can work, any formation can, but it normally doesn't and is very much out of fashion these days. And I can repeat what I said before, not a single top club currently uses the diamond regularly.

 

[olliec]

Makes absolute perfect sense why Poch wanted him now. Poch is the arm around the player type
Manager who will help you build confidence and make you stronger with love and affection. mourinho prefers the old school run through walls and that’s why maybe ndombele is going to find it hard to build confidence with the team. Be interesting to see how this plays out. I read the situation with ndombele completely wrong and thought it was arrogance but it seems the complete opposite now. I hope he can find the aggression and spark inside him as he’s an absolute baller of a player who would push us to a whole new level.