Jose Mourinho

[rossdapep]

Who? You?

Or do you mean that troll who is doing nothing other than stirring up trouble by shitting on Poch?



Pochettino called for a painful rebuild. He got sacked and we were sold silverware. We are now where we are.

You simply cannot blame those who never wanted Poch sacked, or those who never wanted Mourinho appointed, for feeling the way they do having just suffered the result we just have.

We were sold silverware and now we're being sold "rebuild".

I'm all in on Mourinho. I just choose not to shit on Poch to make my point.

I'm not up for shitting on Poch either, he worked with this club and brought us on fantastically but I'm not gunna be blind to the mistakes he made and the last year of football under him because I don't think it can be glossed over as it helps to understand the situation we find ourselves in.

Now that may be entirely Levy's fault, it may be more Poch's, it may be both or it may be a contribution of factors. But we cant simply ignore Poch's last year and pretend it was better before Jose arrived cause we've been on a downward spiral for some time.

 

[mpickard2087]

It's a weird win win scenario for some of us: he either steadies us up and we improve, or he underperforms and gets canned. It just needs time to play out.

Alternative scenario is that he gets to do an overhaul which costs big bucks and leads to a team in transition and it doesn't work. Then the clamour is for a more attacking, modern, etc, etc manager, Levy obliges but we then find ourselves again needing to overhaul the squad for that managers view. More money, more change, and round and round we go.

Part of the problem for most football clubs is they lurch from one extreme to another with little thought and stability. Look at Man Utd post-Fergie - Moyes old school British style football, to LVG's continental possession based approach with youth, then Mourinho's pragmatic style, now it's Solskjaer trying to attack more and back to youth players. All that will lead to is constant transition, chop and change, and football teams under performing and I don't know what those in charge of clubs are thinking when they make these strategic decisions.

It's pretty bonkers and I don't get how you go from someone with Poch's viewpoint on the game, to Mourinho's given the considerable amount of change that will be required. But now it's been done we need, assuming Levy wont decide 'I've made a big error here' (I'll be honest, I wouldn't mind if he did do this) and he will get the chance to mould the team in his image, longer term there has to be consistency. Post-Mourinho we'll need someone in the Conte, Simeone mould (not saying them, per se) who are pragmatic and play sit deeper, fast counter football to build on and enhance that work. But I have no faith we wont be lurching in another direction again and tearing up another blueprint and yet more transition.

 

[spursfan77]

We need a corona virus outbreak at the training ground, with everyone surviving obviously. Get a few games postponed and hopefully it coincides with Kane and son being back!

This isn’t looking quite so stupid (it is) an idea now is it?!?!

 

[Timberwolf]

I was prepared to give him the benefit of doubt & hope he has changed, but honestly, I really think the prem has passed him by now. You can't sit back in a defensive shape like that nowadays and invite pressure, def not with a team that is so fragile like ours. Teams press so much more now and they are very good at it.

This is my main concern. I didn't want to buy in to the narrative that Jose was "past it" but the more I watch us the more I'm coming round to it.

Now, more than ever, even the bottom half teams are full of competent technical players who press high, maintain possession well and are generally good footballing sides. I don't think this was anywhere near as common even when Jose was Chelsea manager for the 2nd time, let alone the 1st.

The only other teams in the league whose principal tactic, regardless of opposition, is to sit with a deep defensive line are probably Newcastle, Burnley and maybe West Ham. That's the type of company we're keeping these days.

We've been played off the park at home by So'ton, Wolves, Norwich and plenty of other sides like Brighton and Sheffield Utd whose squads cost a pittance in comparison to ours have looked far better in possession than us.

I'm willing to give Jose this summer and allow him to bring in his own players, but so far pretty much every fear the doubters had "negative football, divisive in the dressing room, dated tactics" are coming true.

I really hope I'm wrong and he turns it around but I wouldn't be at all surprised if he's gone by Christmas.

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

This isn’t looking quite so stupid (it is) an idea now is it?!?!

Do you still stick with wanting them ALL to survive though?

 

[Typical Spurs]

In 2015 I remember going Stoke away where we lost 3-0. Very early stages for Poch, and just like we're seeing currently it was fucking abysmal. Chirches awful and sent off. Dier at RB. It's easy to forget that it took Poch time. The fans on the concourse at HT were singing "we're fucking shit" over and over.

 

[Timberwolf]

In 2015 I remember going Stoke away where we lost 3-0. Very early stages for Poch, and just like we're seeing currently it was fucking abysmal. Chirches awful and sent off. Dier at RB. It's easy to forget that it took Poch time. The fans on the concourse at HT were singing "we're fucking shit" over and over.

Yeah it's a fair point - these processes take time and it's easy to cherry pick the good stuff and ignore the bad.

However, I do think our current squad is probably better than the one Poch had in his first year and there were some green shoots of progress. We played really well against Chelsea in the League Cup final and definitely had enough good moments to counterbalance the bad.

Right now we're just underperforming with quite a talented group and to willingly cede control at home to Norwich for the best part of any match is unforgivable regardless of the mitigating circumstances.

We need to give him time but I can't say I'm optimistic about the outcome.

 

[rez9000]

It's a tough season but really how much if that is down to Mourinho?

Record signing Ndombele hasn't settled, £30m Sessegnon hampered all season with injuries, Lo Celso long injury when he joined and just coming good in the last month or two, Lloris, Davies, Kane, Sissoko, Son out long term, Lamela still not over his stop/ start time with us, Vertonghen legs have gone, Foyth not good enough for what we need, Eriksen half arsed until he fucked off. It's like taking a car, removing the engine, wheels, seats and gearstick and then blaming the guy sitting in it for not getting it involved in a rally.

We have a team built on scraps at the moment, I honestly don't see how we can see it any other way apart from it being tough luck. 12 players listed above who have had turbulent seasons in one way or another in a squad of 24-25. Our club has taken an absolute battering we just need to get on with it and face the reality that it will clearly lessen the quality we can deliver game by game.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see these things (not that I'm casting any aspersions on your intelligence, Darren), and yet here you are having to outline the bleeding obvious, AGAIN! The fact that you and so many others have to keep saying it over and over and over in the face of those who simply refuse to even acknowledge it is horrifying to watch, and I can only commend you for having the patience to keep doing it.

I'm all for debate and considering other points of view, but when the bleeding obvious is sat right in front of one's face, it's pretty exasperating to see things that, in the face of the plain evidence, simply make no sense.

For crying out loud, all it takes is a tiny amount of logic.

"He's a dinosaur" - you can't make that claim when he's recently won trophies. Nor if you consider the problems with the squad, nor with the fact that he's come in midseason and not had the opportunity to implement his systems and styles. Logic.

"He's not a long-term solution" - When fifteen of the Premiership's managers have been in post less than three years, it puts paid to the idea that any manager is expected to stay with a club for a long period. Logic.

"There are no green shoots" - that is to be expected, again given the fact that he's come in in mid-season and has a problematic squad. Logic.

"The football's turgid" - AGAIN, to be expected with the problems with the squad, the lack of options and the fact that coming in mid-season, he can't apply his system or style in any significant way. Bloody logic!

Over and over and over, we have to keep saying the same things. Some oil seems to be poured onto troubled waters, things seem to get a little calmer and then someone pops up with some variation of one of the above statements and the whole thing churns again. Enough already!

Can anyone deny any of the things above? I challenge those desperate to piss all over the manager to show me examples where others have had the same issues and have overcome them in so short a space of time as Mourinho has had at the club. Point to the time when Nagelsmann took a depleted and seriously damaged squad and got them winning again within four months. Someone point to the time that Nuno joined a club midseason and got them playing exciting football when previously they hadn't been. Just a few examples. Come on, chaps - if you're so expert as to judge in the most excoriating terms, surely you have ideas that can back up your claims? While you're at it, perhaps you can also demonstrate how precisely you all know the ins and outs of what's happening at Spurs without drawing on rumour, journalist pap or supposition. Or maybe you can't because you're all far too busy in your jobs as professional football coaches...?

But maybe not that busy to avoid engaging in a little emotional blackmail like citing what other fans are saying about our situation. As if their opinion lends any weight to any part of the discussion.

What United fans say or laugh at about us isn't an issue. They don't know the ins and outs of our club, so aren't qualified to make any kind of statement, let alone the usual moronic ones that you'd expect from that bunch of entitled pricks.

What Chelsea fans have to say is even less relevant. They should stick to what they know best: trying to write their own names without assistance and being racist.

Seriously - enough! If you really care that much about the club, then you shouldn't need to be told that when times are hard you show more support, not less. That if you whine and moan when things are going badly, you're not being a supporter, you're being selfish because you're only thinking of what you want, what you expect, not what the club you purport to support needs.

Now, I feel it necessary to apologise for the harshness of my post. It's not because I dislike any of you (barring a couple I have on ignore). You are all part of my tribe, no matter our disagreements. But the toxicity is rising and we owe it to ourselves as well as the club we adore to be better than we're currently being.

Peace and love to you all.

 

[SpartanSpur]

Alternative scenario is that he gets to do an overhaul which costs big bucks and leads to a team in transition and it doesn't work. Then the clamour is for a more attacking, modern, etc, etc manager, Levy obliges but we then find ourselves again needing to overhaul the squad for that managers view. More money, more change, and round and round we go.

Part of the problem for most football clubs is they lurch from one extreme to another with little thought and stability. Look at Man Utd post-Fergie - Moyes old school British style football, to LVG's continental possession based approach with youth, then Mourinho's pragmatic style, now it's Solskjaer trying to attack more and back to youth players. All that will lead to is constant transition, chop and change, and football teams under performing and I don't know what those in charge of clubs are thinking when they make these strategic decisions.

It's pretty bonkers and I don't get how you go from someone with Poch's viewpoint on the game, to Mourinho's given the considerable amount of change that will be required. But now it's been done we need, assuming Levy wont decide 'I've made a big error here' (I'll be honest, I wouldn't mind if he did do this) and he will get the chance to mould the team in his image, longer term there has to be consistency. Post-Mourinho we'll need someone in the Conte, Simeone mould (not saying them, per se) who are pragmatic and play sit deeper, fast counter football to build on and enhance that work. But I have no faith we wont be lurching in another direction again and tearing up another blueprint and yet more transition.

I think you make a very good point here, but I think the decision for Mourinho after Poch was (rightly or wrongly) weighted more towards the mental side of things, based on the general atmosphere around the club at the time. Poch and the players were on the floor mentally having done so well in both the PL and CL and failed to get over the line in either. Bringing in a 'serial winner' like Jose made sense and was likely seen by Levy as the best option to appease the squad, as evidenced by the initial bounce.

Would Kane/Son really have been willing to start from scratch under a Nagelsmann when they want to be winning now? With hindsight I wish we tried to find out but I fully supported the appointment of Jose at the time, and still think he deserves time now.

The critical error was that both Levy and Jose clearly underestimated the state of the squad, something I was also guilty of. The whole decision looks flawed now. Although I will add I don't think Poch was in the state of mind to rebuild either. I kinda agree if Levy were to realise this and part ways with Jose I would be interested to see it, but we all know it's not going to happen.

I was hoping the mental issues were greater than the physical but it seems it was arguably the other way around. I'm convinced something went horribly wrong with our fitness and conditioning work this past 6-12 months, we always look the weaker team physically so it's no surprise to see us struggle to control games.

That said had we managed to avoid these huge injuries to Kane/Son I'd wager there'd be a fair chance we'd be sitting 4th in the league right now and still in the Cup (albeit with the same question marks over the football) so I'm certainly not going to be calling for his head just yet. I still have some faint optimism he can be good for us with a good summer window, and I do sympathise greatly with the issues he's had to deal with.

You do make a good point about succession planning though and being 100% honest I'd rather be on the Poch/Nagelsmann route than the Jose/Simeone route. Just more to add to the incredibly bleak picture that is Tottenham Hotspur FC right now I guess...

My take is it's going to get even worse before it gets better sadly. I can't see where the next win is coming from. We're just going to have to grin and bear it and hope a successful TW and season can get us back on track next year.

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

In 2015 I remember going Stoke away where we lost 3-0. Very early stages for Poch, and just like we're seeing currently it was fucking abysmal. Chirches awful and sent off. Dier at RB. It's easy to forget that it took Poch time. The fans on the concourse at HT were singing "we're fucking shit" over and over.

I remember that very well. Not that specific match, but that general period. Some of the style of football and the results were really bad.

 

[Typical Spurs]

Oh, and to bloody top it off.....we've 2 boys aged 8 and 6. Both have the spurs kits, names on the back etc. Daddy here has been filling their poor little heads with Spurs since day 1, our best players from the past, the best games I've been to blah blah blah.

So this morning I tell them that Spurs lost last night on penalties. The eldest said "how did man city get on"?
"Why" I asked
"I think I support them now"

A bit taken a back, I was then getting the 6 year old dressed for school. His birthday is in May so i was asking him what he wants....
"A Wolves strip". He said it fucking deadpan. No smile or cheeky grin to show me he's kidding. He's absolutely serious.

 

[glacierSpurs]

So many people always like to say what's happening on the pitch is dreadful and negative. But more time is being spent off the pitch. While we have not been getting results, you can't deny that the Mourinho today is more positive and shows really more of a leader now than the ranting version at chelscum and United. It could transcend down to the lower level of the club and who knows, those who work there may be laughing at us for wanting him sacked just 3-4 months into the job.

We don't have any much records of a complete unified squad, but I for one believe the current squad has more belief than the one we had 5 months ago. Is quite obvious some players are doing very much to wanna repay the faith he had shown in them. Given more time, it is not impossible to say we will have a squad really willing to walk fire for him playing with the motivation we once saw when Poch got the 15/16 squad playing.

 

[glacierSpurs]

Ultimately it's the results that will count. If we don't play a great style but it's effective then people will begrudgingly swallow it (albeit without taking to him).

Apparently when we are winning by the odd goal or against the odd like Citeh results, people are still moaning why the fuck we are so negative. ?‍♂

 

[Metalhead]

Apparently when we are winning by the odd goal or against the odd like Citeh results, people are still moaning why the fuck we are so negative. ?‍♂

I guess that ultimately you're never going to please everyone. We all think that we know how to buy players, pick teams etc.

 

[Monkey boy]

Oh, and to bloody top it off.....we've 2 boys aged 8 and 6. Both have the spurs kits, names on the back etc. Daddy here has been filling their poor little heads with Spurs since day 1, our best players from the past, the best games I've been to blah blah blah.

So this morning I tell them that Spurs lost last night on penalties. The eldest said "how did man city get on"?
"Why" I asked
"I think I support them now"

A bit taken a back, I was then getting the 6 year old dressed for school. His birthday is in May so i was asking him what he wants....
"A Wolves strip". He said it fucking deadpan. No smile or cheeky grin to show me he's kidding. He's absolutely serious.

there’ll be other children mate.

 

[Styopa]

In 2015 I remember going Stoke away where we lost 3-0. Very early stages for Poch, and just like we're seeing currently it was fucking abysmal. Chirches awful and sent off. Dier at RB. It's easy to forget that it took Poch time. The fans on the concourse at HT were singing "we're fucking shit" over and over.

Yeah that first season had some really bleak moments. A quick scan of the first 15 results show home defeats of 3-0 to Liverpool, 1-0 to West Brom, 2-1 to Newcastle and 2-1 to Stoke, a 0-0 home draw with Crystal Palace and defeats of 4-1 and 3-0 away to Man City and Chelsea respectively. We certainly improved from that point onward with in hindsight the Chelsea match being the first sign of what was to come, however even over the last 10 games of the season we lost 3-0 away to Man U, 1-0 at home to Aston and 3-0 away to Stoke as you have pointed out.

It could be argued we were starting from a much lower bar when Pochettino took over. However despite the huge strides made during Pochettino's tenure at the club, most of us will agree that we have been in a spiral of decline for at least a year, a decline which was covered up to a large degree by a handful of extraordinary results in the Champions League and what can only be described as the utter incompetence of the teams around us in the "race" (or rather stumble") for 4th last season.

On balance we probably have a better squad than the one Pochettino inherited, but I don't think that's as clear cut as some people are making out. Remember, for all it's deficiencies, the squad Pochettino took over still included Lloris, Vertonghen, Dembele, Rose, Walker, Davies, Dier Eriksen, Lamela and ,albeit, very raw versions of Kane and Ali. It also included players who went on to find some measure of success at other clubs like Capoue and Paulinho. In the pre-season that followed Pochettino's first season at the club we brought in Alderweireld, Son, and Trippier. The rest, as they say, is history...

Pochettino deserves full credit for taking many of those players on and turning us into a proper team who could really compete. He transformed the whole ethos of the club. However he was given the raw materials as well a 2 pre-seasons and 1 full maiden season to accomplish that. I have been hugely frustrated by not only our recent results but also our performances under Mourinho. However it is still far too early to draw conclusions based on those performances and results. He is yet to have a pre-season, let alone 1 full season and 2 pre-seasons to shape the squad in his image. As much as some people detest him, I think he deserves a pre-season a shot at a full season at least.

 

[Flashspur]

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see these things (not that I'm casting any aspersions on your intelligence, Darren), and yet here you are having to outline the bleeding obvious, AGAIN! The fact that you and so many others have to keep saying it over and over and over in the face of those who simply refuse to even acknowledge it is horrifying to watch, and I can only commend you for having the patience to keep doing it.

I'm all for debate and considering other points of view, but when the bleeding obvious is sat right in front of one's face, it's pretty exasperating to see things that, in the face of the plain evidence, simply make no sense.

For crying out loud, all it takes is a tiny amount of logic.

"He's a dinosaur" - you can't make that claim when he's recently won trophies. Nor if you consider the problems with the squad, nor with the fact that he's come in midseason and not had the opportunity to implement his systems and styles. Logic.

"He's not a long-term solution" - When fifteen of the Premiership's managers have been in post less than three years, it puts paid to the idea that any manager is expected to stay with a club for a long period. Logic.

"There are no green shoots" - that is to be expected, again given the fact that he's come in in mid-season and has a problematic squad. Logic.

"The football's turgid" - AGAIN, to be expected with the problems with the squad, the lack of options and the fact that coming in mid-season, he can't apply his system or style in any significant way. Bloody logic!

Over and over and over, we have to keep saying the same things. Some oil seems to be poured onto troubled waters, things seem to get a little calmer and then someone pops up with some variation of one of the above statements and the whole thing churns again. Enough already!

Can anyone deny any of the things above? I challenge those desperate to piss all over the manager to show me examples where others have had the same issues and have overcome them in so short a space of time as Mourinho has had at the club. Point to the time when Nagelsmann took a depleted and seriously damaged squad and got them winning again within four months. Someone point to the time that Nuno joined a club midseason and got them playing exciting football when previously they hadn't been. Just a few examples. Come on, chaps - if you're so expert as to judge in the most excoriating terms, surely you have ideas that can back up your claims? While you're at it, perhaps you can also demonstrate how precisely you all know the ins and outs of what's happening at Spurs without drawing on rumour, journalist pap or supposition. Or maybe you can't because you're all far too busy in your jobs as professional football coaches...?

But maybe not that busy to avoid engaging in a little emotional blackmail like citing what other fans are saying about our situation. As if their opinion lends any weight to any part of the discussion.

What United fans say or laugh at about us isn't an issue. They don't know the ins and outs of our club, so aren't qualified to make any kind of statement, let alone the usual moronic ones that you'd expect from that bunch of entitled pricks.

What Chelsea fans have to say is even less relevant. They should stick to what they know best: trying to write their own names without assistance and being racist.

Seriously - enough! If you really care that much about the club, then you shouldn't need to be told that when times are hard you show more support, not less. That if you whine and moan when things are going badly, you're not being a supporter, you're being selfish because you're only thinking of what you want, what you expect, not what the club you purport to support needs.

Now, I feel it necessary to apologise for the harshness of my post. It's not because I dislike any of you (barring a couple I have on ignore). You are all part of my tribe, no matter our disagreements. But the toxicity is rising and we owe it to ourselves as well as the club we adore to be better than what we're currently being.

Peace and love to you all.

Good post Rez. I can’t argue with any of that. We’ve got 5 new guys Mourinho’s trying to bed in. Continuing problems with Ndombele. Harry and Sonny out. No recognised back up striker and failure to buy in January. Dier and Davies coming back from injury. Wanyama crocked. No recognised DM other then Dier. Lamela crocked. Verts a shell of a player he was previously. No real cover to spell Toby and Sanchez. Loris injured for most of the season. No real cover at RB either to spell Aurier. A shit show of a season.

But go on. Blame it all on the new manager.

 

[Shadydan]

Oh, and to bloody top it off.....we've 2 boys aged 8 and 6. Both have the spurs kits, names on the back etc. Daddy here has been filling their poor little heads with Spurs since day 1, our best players from the past, the best games I've been to blah blah blah.

So this morning I tell them that Spurs lost last night on penalties. The eldest said "how did man city get on"?
"Why" I asked
"I think I support them now"

A bit taken a back, I was then getting the 6 year old dressed for school. His birthday is in May so i was asking him what he wants....
"A Wolves strip". He said it fucking deadpan. No smile or cheeky grin to show me he's kidding. He's absolutely serious.

You failed as a father, you had 1 (one) job!

 

[Martinhotspur]

We have to give Jose some time Poch has left a bunch of broken players behind him. Nearly all look a shadow of themselves. I don't know what training he did with them but he has left them in a mess.

 

[PLTuck]

This thread is like groundhog day after every game.

Poster 1: Mourinho is shit
Poster 2: Poch was shitter
Poster 1: Poch did x,y,z.
Poster 3: Give Jose time ffs.
Poster 1: But Jose is shit
Poster 4: Yeah but fuck Levy.

and rinse and repeat. There, I've just saved you 480 pages of reading.