AR5ENA1 5 SPURS 2 nov12 SOM + RATINGS

[Bus-Conductor]

Just been watching the second half again. (Properly this time). Gallas is 2/3 yards deeper than any of the rest of our boys for Podolski's goal. He also tries to block the shot with his swinger.

Also, whoever said Levy was smiling after the game couldn't have been more wrong. He looked like someone shat in his bed.

He is a yard deeper as a result of Vertyonghen taken a step forward that moment because Giroud does and Gallas is tight on Podolski. You could argue that he should step up that instant and try and catch Podolski offside, and you'd maybe have a case, but that would be taking a chance, and sticking up the arse of his man and not leaving him in that passage of play is I think forgivable. If you look in slow mo, he actually gets a good block and it ricochets back off podolski's boot. So bar shit luck he'd done his job.

The bigger problem IMO in that passage of play is identical to Dzeko's goal last week. Look where Huddelstone is and how much time Arteta has on the ball because Huddelstone instead of reading what's happening and moving his arse out to press the man in possession is stood where he was last week on the fucking penalty area doing fuck all. meaning Sandro has to try and race across from just pressing over on the left flank with no hope. That is where Huddelstone should be, pressing the ball.

Also look at Bale's absolutely nonchalant effort at closing Sagna down twice in that passage of play. The second time before he passes to Arteta Bale just ambles to about 5 yards and stops.

And no-one picks up Arteta's run (sandro just gives up having sprinted over from the left to get to him) past Podolski at all, which would have beaten any offside trap. Again, through no credit to Gallas, just pointing it out.

For the third goal look what Defoe does when the ball comes out. Completely bottles it. If he just puts in a challenge it may have saved us a goal.

Vertonghen is marking Giroud by the way, but Gallas again is unlucky in that the ball goes through his legs.

You can nit pick about Gallas all you like, and I honestly think that's what people are doing, Gallas's errors aren't huge, not like the errors others are making, there are much bigger problems in that move, in our defending as a team in general, endemic of much of what is wrong with us for a long time, IMO.

 

[jonathanhotspur]

He is a yard deeper as a result of Vertyonghen taken a step forward that moment because Giroud does and Gallas is tight on Podolski. You could argue that he should step up that instant and try and catch Podolski offside, and you'd maybe have a case, but that would be taking a chance, and sticking up the arse of his man and not leaving him in that passage of play is I think forgivable. If you look in slow mo, he actually gets a good block and it ricochets back off podolski's boot. So bar shit luck he'd done his job.

The bigger problem IMO in that passage of play is identical to Dzeko's goal last week. Look where Huddelstone is and how much time Arteta has on the ball because Huddelstone instead of reading what's happening and moving his arse out to press the man in possession is stood where he was last week on the fucking penalty area doing fuck all. meaning Sandro has to try and race across from just pressing over on the left flank with no hope. That is where Huddelstone should be, pressing the ball.

Also look at Bale's absolutely nonchalant effort at closing Sagna down twice in that passage of play. The second time before he passes to Arteta Bale just ambles to about 5 yards and stops.

And no-one picks up Arteta's run (sandro just gives up having sprinted over from the left to get to him) past Podolski at all, which would have beaten any offside trap. Again, through no credit to Gallas, just pointing it out.

For the third goal look what Defoe does when the ball comes out. Completely bottles it. If he just puts in a challenge it may have saved us a goal.

Vertonghen is marking Giroud by the way, but Gallas again is unlucky in that the ball goes through his legs.

You can nit pick about Gallas all you like, and I honestly think that's what people are doing, Gallas's errors aren't huge, not like the errors others are making, there are much bigger problems in that move, in our defending as a team in general, endemic of much of what is wrong with us for a long time, IMO.

I am looking at this goal over and over again and I see no richochet, BC. I see the ball clipping Gallas's heel. He attempts to block the shot with his weak foot which isn't ideal, in my opinion. I would welcome the views of others as to whether playing him onside was ok in the circumstances.

For the third goal, I see you are right about Giroud being Vertonghen's man. He wasn't switched on.

As for the gist of your post, there's nothing there I haven't picked up on already. You have been a good teacher.

 

[ShelfSide18]

Why did that game have to fall on my birthday?

Just a few thoughts on our current situation, I wasn't particularly happy with the starting line up - I get the reasoning behind it and we did start well, the 2 up top troubled their back line and in getting the ball forward quickly certainly unsettled them. But that was 15 minutes, it is unlikely that would have continued for much longer and I do wonder how AVB was planning to play the game as it developed. In the end, Adebayor's gross stupidity ended the game for us.

This is not AVBs game, I think he's been so rattled by the Chelsea experience that he doesn't want it to happen all over again - he's being too conservative when we really needed a revolution. We got away with a lot of stuff last season because we had 2 central midfielders of world class standard who helped us keep the ball so well our defensive work was less exposed, and could come up with moments of magic which we just don't have now.

It has been a trying set of circumstances for AVB, we've had injuries which have stretched our squad like losing our best CB Kaboul, BAE which has seen our next best CB Verts moved to LB, we've lost midfield drive and determination in Scotty P which would have been quite handy on Saturday and Adebayor has not been fit, and now misses the next 3 for being an idiot. Circumstances haven't been kind on the guy, but I don't think he's made the best of what he could out of those circumstances yet.

I think our shape is better defensively, and maybe AVBs first aim was to improve that before he started getting to grips with our complete disregard (most of the time) for working as a team to win the ball back higher up the field. I'm not even talking that high up the field, it would be nice if Bale would occasionally engage the opposition when they say, cross the half way line. That shape I talked about though is nothing when our RB has seemingly forgotten how to play football and players like Hudd/Defoe/Dempsey/Bale have decided to delegate their defensive work to Sandro. The poor guy will be shagged out by February, just like Scotty P was last season.

I hope AVB realises this can't go on like this soon, that he realises he'd rather fail with his own system and way of playing than go out with a whimper trying not to upset the delicate personalities of the current squad who got used to HRs complacency. This starts with getting some of our excellent youth players game time, who have been coached properly and also play with quality, enthusiasm and imagination from the decent amount I've seen of them. Carroll, Falque, Mason, Parrett - the fans will respond to that too, they love youngsters being given a chance, just like they have responded to Rodgers at Liverpool despite a poor points return.

He showed at half time he has ability, that was an excellent change which gave us a threat without completely isolating Defoe and giving us numbers in the middle. It was brave and gave us a shot at getting something from a almost hopeless situation. Had Bale scored that chance, you never know. That's the AVB I want to see, and by and large the fans responded to it positively.

There is so much right about this club currently in regards to our youth strategy and organisation, a new stadium on the way and a club in sound financial hands. AVB just needs to start playing his own game.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Why did that game have to fall on my birthday?

Just a few thoughts on our current situation, I wasn't particularly happy with the starting line up - I get the reasoning behind it and we did start well, the 2 up top troubled their back line and in getting the ball forward quickly certainly unsettled them. But that was 15 minutes, it is unlikely that would have continued for much longer and I do wonder how AVB was planning to play the game as it developed. In the end, Adebayor's gross stupidity ended the game for us.

This is not AVBs game, I think he's been so rattled by the Chelsea experience that he doesn't want it to happen all over again - he's being too conservative when we really needed a revolution. We got away with a lot of stuff last season because we had 2 central midfielders of world class standard who helped us keep the ball so well our defensive work was less exposed, and could come up with moments of magic which we just don't have now.

It has been a trying set of circumstances for AVB, we've had injuries which have stretched our squad like losing our best CB Kaboul, BAE which has seen our next best CB Verts moved to LB, we've lost midfield drive and determination in Scotty P which would have been quite handy on Saturday and Adebayor has not been fit, and now misses the next 3 for being an idiot. Circumstances haven't been kind on the guy, but I don't think he's made the best of what he could out of those circumstances yet.

I think our shape is better defensively, and maybe AVBs first aim was to improve that before he started getting to grips with our complete disregard (most of the time) for working as a team to win the ball back higher up the field. I'm not even talking that high up the field, it would be nice if Bale would occasionally engage the opposition when they say, cross the half way line. That shape I talked about though is nothing when our RB has seemingly forgotten how to play football and players like Hudd/Defoe/Dempsey/Bale have decided to delegate their defensive work to Sandro. The poor guy will be shagged out by February, just like Scotty P was last season.

I hope AVB realises this can't go on like this soon, that he realises he'd rather fail with his own system and way of playing than go out with a whimper trying not to upset the delicate personalities of the current squad who got used to HRs complacency. This starts with getting some of our excellent youth players game time, who have been coached properly and also play with quality, enthusiasm and imagination from the decent amount I've seen of them. Carroll, Falque, Mason, Parrett - the fans will respond to that too, they love youngsters being given a chance, just like they have responded to Rodgers at Liverpool despite a poor points return.

He showed at half time he has ability, that was an excellent change which gave us a threat without completely isolating Defoe and giving us numbers in the middle. It was brave and gave us a shot at getting something from a almost hopeless situation. Had Bale scored that chance, you never know. That's the AVB I want to see, and by and large the fans responded to it positively.

There is so much right about this club currently in regards to our youth strategy and organisation, a new stadium on the way and a club in sound financial hands. AVB just needs to start playing his own game.

An insightful assessment as ever SS, the bold bits in particular.

I read a few weeks back that the players had said to AVb he was working them too hard and he responded. It was meant as a compliment (by Walker I believe) to show the new boss listens to the players, but it made me cringe. Last thing we needed was a coach that panders to these over primped ego's and sensibilities. It's hard for a coach these days, and I keep thinking about what JH said last season about how he thinks it's almost impossible to get these pampered babies to work harder.

I still don't buy that completely, but I wonder if this and the combination of AVB's experience at Chelsea is hindering his ability/willingness to alienate players by working their nuts off and getting severe on their arses. The travesty being, it was the the thing our lot needed most.

I just do not understand how any decent coach could let players like Bale, Lennon, Defoe, Dempsey and Huddelstone get away with being so fucking lazy so much of the time.

We are not even talking about a hard pressing game, we are talking about just closing opponents down properly, with some kind of intent, just getting near them enough to influence them. These lot around barely getting closer than 5 yards to the opponent. About 90% of the goals we are conceding involve this poor work ethic to some degree.

Can you imagine Ferguson, Wenger, mancini or even Moyes swelling that from anyone ?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Oh, and have been saying the same about the kids for while. Let's get some of these kids in there. They have been taught well and can not be worse than what they would be replacing. At the very least they will bring some life and vigour to the proceedings.

 

[ShelfSide18]

An insightful assessment as ever SS, the bold bits in particular.

I read a few weeks back that the players had said to AVb he was working them too hard and he responded. It was meant as a compliment (by Walker I believe) to show the new boss listens to the players, but it made me cringe. Last thing we needed was a coach that panders to these over primped ego's and sensibilities. It's hard for a coach these days, and I keep thinking about what JH said last season about how he thinks it's almost impossible to get these pampered babies to work harder.

I still don't buy that completely, but I wonder if this and the combination of AVB's experience at Chelsea is hindering his ability/willingness to alienate players by working their nuts off and getting severe on their arses. The travesty being, it was the the thing our lot needed most.

I just do not understand how any decent coach could let players like Bale, Lennon, Defoe, Dempsey and Huddelstone get away with being so fucking lazy so much of the time.

We are not even talking about a hard pressing game, we are talking about just closing opponents down properly, with some kind of intent, just getting near them enough to influence them. These lot around barely getting closer than 5 yards to the opponent. About 90% of the goals we are conceding involve this poor work ethic to some degree.

Can you imagine Ferguson, Wenger, mancini or even Moyes swelling that from anyone ?

I guess it will be difficult to change attitudes in some of these players who were allowed to get away with murder under HR, but now they can't count on VDV and Modric weaving magic in the middle they really need to be woken up to the fact that they can no longer potter around the pitch and get away with it any more. I disagree with JH that they can't be changed, I believe they can be and fuck they need to be.

Tom Carroll came on and made more of a nuisance of himself than Huddlestone has done all season, this is little Tommy Carroll who you think would snap like a plastic Subbutteo player. When I watched the U21s last Monday they were harrying Saint's all over the pitch constantly forcing them into bad rushed passes. They were like a swarm of wasps at a picnic.

 

[Mr Pink]

An insightful assessment as ever SS, the bold bits in particular.

I read a few weeks back that the players had said to AVb he was working them too hard and he responded. It was meant as a compliment (by Walker I believe) to show the new boss listens to the players, but it made me cringe. Last thing we needed was a coach that panders to these over primped ego's and sensibilities. It's hard for a coach these days, and I keep thinking about what JH said last season about how he thinks it's almost impossible to get these pampered babies to work harder.

I still don't buy that completely, but I wonder if this and the combination of AVB's experience at Chelsea is hindering his ability/willingness to alienate players by working their nuts off and getting severe on their arses. The travesty being, it was the the thing our lot needed most.

I just do not understand how any decent coach could let players like Bale, Lennon, Defoe, Dempsey and Huddelstone get away with being so fucking lazy so much of the time.

We are not even talking about a hard pressing game, we are talking about just closing opponents down properly, with some kind of intent, just getting near them enough to influence them. These lot around barely getting closer than 5 yards to the opponent. About 90% of the goals we are conceding involve this poor work ethic to some degree.

Can you imagine Ferguson, Wenger, mancini or even Moyes swelling that from anyone ?

I think this is exactly what is happening. He's tentative because of his previous experience and is reluctant to force through his methods/ideas because it means big changes for this group of players - and change they won't like.

 

[jonathanhotspur]

I think this is exactly what is happening. He's tentative because of his previous experience and is reluctant to force through his methods/ideas because it means big changes for this group of players - and change won't they like.

I don't like to say it but morale has got to be low at the moment and it's quite likely that we have some cheesed off players knocking about the place as we speak. I expect some of them would rather AVB got the sack than get their finger out.

It's ironic what's happened at Chelsea. Drogba's gone to China, Lampard's a fringe player and could also be on his way to China in January, Terry has been told he's not guaranteed a starting place and probably won't get a contract extension and Ashley Cole looks like he could be leaving on a free transfer at the end of the season.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I don't like to say it but morale has got to be low at the moment and it's quite likely that we have some cheesed off players knocking about the place as we speak. I expect some of them would rather AVB got the sack than get their finger out.

It's ironic what's happened at Chelsea. Drogba's gone to China, Lampard's a fringe player and could also be on his way to China in January, Terry has been told he's not guaranteed a starting place and probably won't get a contract extension and Ashley Cole looks like he could be leaving on a free transfer at the end of the season.

I said the same last year, why didn't Abramovich just back the revolution that was necessary anyway. He brings a manager in to do a job then ties his hands behind his back.

AVB needs to show some character now. He compromised at chelsea and it didn't do him any good. He's facing a litany of problems. Unlike RDM or even Rodgers he inherited a team perceived to have been high/over achieving so is under more pressure to maintain status. Unlike them his squad has been weakened instead of strengthened. Unlike them the team he inherited had a poor work ethic as already endemic. Not to mention missing players who naturally work harder like Parker and Dembele.

 

[jonathanhotspur]

I said the same last year, why didn't Abramovich just back the revolution that was necessary anyway. He brings a manager in to do a job then ties his hands behind his back.

AVB needs to show some character now. He compromised at chelsea and it didn't do him any good. He's facing a litany of problems. Unlike RDM or even Rodgers he inherited a team perceived to have been high/over achieving so is under more pressure to maintain status. Unlike them his squad has been weakened instead of strengthened. Unlike them the team he inherited had a poor work ethic as already endemic. Not to mention missing players who naturally work harder like Parker and Dembele.

The funny thing about Abramovich is that the first thing he did after firing AVB was to meet the players and blame them for it, saying there would be major changes made in the summer.

It is also interesting that AVB is one of only two managers Abramovich has told face to face that their time is up. The other was Avram Grant.

Minimal digging also yielded this delightful tale...

In the dressing-room the players grew tired of his timekeeping, fed up of him monitoring their arrival some days from the balcony of his first-floor office.

Some started a game among themselves, flying into the car park as the seconds counted down to the scheduled arrival time. They would jump out of their cars with moments to spare, winding up the manager by acknowledging him with a sarcastic wave as they headed in to change.

Battle lines had been drawn, with the players challenging every aspect of Villas-Boas’ micro-management.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2110222/Andre-Villas-Boas-sacked--Roman-Abramovich-blames-players.html#ixzz2CrfNnw00
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[playboypaul]

sums it up lads

Oh. My. God.

What a dick.

​

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[steve]

He hasn't the the strength of personality to affect the changes needed in mentality and attitude that you're looking for. These are old and long habits for some of our players and it won't change quickly or at all for some of them. AVB can't be faulted for his desire to succeed, he is working his balls off without doubt, but he hasn't realised that less is more. He's so involved with the players in every single aspect that they're starting to take him for granted and as a result they'll stop paying attention to him. If you're gonna micro manage every single aspect of the team then you need to be a strong fucker who takes no shit but also earns respect. Jose is the obvious example. Let the coaches take training and implement his ideas and philosophy and he can keep his distance and air of authority. I'm not convinced the players respect him enough to do what he wants.

More worrying is that some of our talented youngsters will soon join the group and some of these bad habits may rub off on them. We need an overhaul in some respects, i'm not convinced he'll get the time to do it though, nor that he's a big enough character. I hope i'm wrong.

 

[ShelfSide18]

He hasn't the the strength of personality to affect the changes needed in mentality and attitude that you're looking for. These are old and long habits for some of our players and it won't change quickly or at all for some of them. AVB can't be faulted for his desire to succeed, he is working his balls off without doubt, but he hasn't realised that less is more. He's so involved with the players in every single aspect that they're starting to take him for granted and as a result they'll stop paying attention to him. If you're gonna micro manage every single aspect of the team then you need to be a strong fucker who takes no shit but also earns respect. Jose is the obvious example. Let the coaches take training and implement his ideas and philosophy and he can keep his distance and air of authority. I'm not convinced the players respect him enough to do what he wants.

More worrying is that some of our talented youngsters will soon join the group and some of these bad habits may rub off on them. We need an overhaul in some respects, i'm not convinced he'll get the time to do it though, nor that he's a big enough character. I hope i'm wrong.

What makes you think AVB doesn't have the strength of personality to affect these changes?

 

[beats1]

Gallas has made more defensive errors than any of our CB's but he has also saved us more than any CB so I don't think he is our best CB atm but our lack of ekotto means its either him or Dawson atm

 

[steve]

What makes you think AVB doesn't have the strength of personality to affect these changes?

His manner mainly. I watch closely his interaction with the players during and especially after matches. Also his interaction with the press. I think he's too concerned with being liked and he lacks the easy manner and charm that someone like Mourinho possesses. I realise that's a tough comparison but it's pertinent. Mourinho is a ruthless tough bastard but he's got a charm and a confidence that can get people doing what he wants - not only the playing staff but the whole club all the way up to board level. He also doesn't give a fuck whether he's liked or not. AVB doesn't possess the same attributes from what I can see.

The job at Spurs is a tough one as others have said - expectation is high but the squad is poorer than before. I hope I'm wrong about him of course and he does succeed, I think he's a nice guy who is desperate to do well and to see that derailed by some arsehole players with their brains in their bollocks would be genuinely distressing. I just wonder is he cute enough to deal with the aforementioned arseholes? I'm not convinced thus far...