AR5ENA1 5 SPURS 2 nov12 SOM + RATINGS

[EnfieldYiddo]

I'm glad people noticed the improvement in Dempsey's performance.

Interestingly I believe it's because he was playing under no pressure - No-one expected anything from the game as of that moment he came on; he seemed more relaxed tbh.

I still wouldn't write him off; especially with Ade banned for 3 games.

I would of liked to have seen Ade with Gylfi behind in the future but that's been blown out of the water for the mean time.

With Dempsey atleast we got someone who can (well was known to) be able to hold up play.


But as for the rest I concur; although I felt Lennon was much defensively better than Bale was... But ineffective going forward (whereas Bale was)

 

[mpickard2087]

I'm glad people noticed the improvement in Dempsey's performance.

Interestingly I believe it's because he was playing under no pressure - No-one expected anything from the game as of that moment he came on; he seemed more relaxed tbh.

I still wouldn't write him off; especially with Ade banned for 3 games.

I would of liked to have seen Ade with Gylfi behind in the future but that's been blown out of the water for the mean time.

With Dempsey atleast we got someone who can (well was known to) be able to hold up play.


But as for the rest I concur; although I felt Lennon was much defensively better than Bale was... But ineffective going forward (whereas Bale was)

I think it's getting pretty clear that AVB either a) feels he doesn't fit into the sytem he wants to play or b) just doesn't rate him, he's had very little game time recently and numerous others are being preferred to him.

 

[tobi]

I think it's getting pretty clear that AVB either a) feels he doesn't fit into the sytem he wants to play or b) just doesn't rate him, he's had very little game time recently and numerous others are being preferred to him.

He'll be a better fit when we (finally) switch to 4-3-3. I hope it's soon because his confidence is already low, sitting on the bench won't help.

 

[jonathanhotspur]

He'll be a better fit when we (finally) switch to 4-3-3. I hope it's soon because his confidence is already low, sitting on the bench won't help.

You talk about 4-3-3, tobi, but after months of farting about with a 4-2-3-1, we've gone back to 4-4-2.

Don't get me wrong-I blame everyone at the moment. We are not doing very basic stuff well. Pressing, movement, staying compact when we defend deep. Now I think there are two possibilities. The first is that AVB's coaching is below par. The second is that we have a core of players at this club-and some of them have been here quite a long time-who need to be fucked out on their head.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

This is the closest account to what I saw yesterday, barring the 'taking heart from the second half'.

Hudd was an absolute embarrassment, I would also have marked Gallas lower, he was a big part of the first 3 goals in my opinion, along with Hudd. Although like Mr P said he may be becoming a bit of a spent force, he is playing a lot and his fitness is a worry.

I cant be as positive as most on this subject, and I certainly laughed out loud with the number of threads praising AVB and how 'proud people were of him for giving it a go' etc. For fuck sake boys, it was the NLD what did you expect him to do in the second half? See it out for damage limitation when we were 3-1 down??

The changes just replaced our weakest players with on the day with ones that couldn't have done any worse if they tried. To all those saying 'we would have won with 11 men', I'm yet to see us go 1-0 in any game and keep attacking rather than sitting back, and this is where I cant jump on the bandwagon of the unrealistic credit of AVB. Our defending, is in my opinion, worse than it has been for years. To get carved open like we did in the first half was a disgrace, 10 men or not, you need to set up to defend properly. And we had Lloris to thank for that scoreline not being 8 or 9. Sorry but that's the realism of it. I'm prepared for all the negs and dumbs coming my way for saying this, but at the moment I am genuinely concerned about us, really fucking concerned that we are pissing away all the work that we have done in the last 4 years. Levy/AVB/Redknapp are all to blame.

Ratings:

Lloris - 7 Without him in the first half and coming off his line as quick as he did in the second, we would have been buried, Wigan style.

Walker - 3 Just piss poor, taking far too long on the ball.
Gallas - 4 Trying to marshall the defence, looks spent, needs to sit out.
Verts - 6 Good ball through to Defoe for the opener, comfortable on the ball, lazy fucker without it though.
Naughton - 3 Please stop, please stop trying to see something that isn't there with this lad, at left back he honestly looks like someone swapped his legs round while he was asleep.

Hudd - N/A Fuck off.
Sandro - 6 Tried hard, thank god.

Lennon - 3 Absolutely invisible.
Adebayor - N/A
Bale - 6 Fits and starts, well taken goal but has to better with the chance later on.

Defoe - 4 Thanks Ade, we now have to watch Defoe meandering about as the lone striker for the next 3 games.

AVB - 4 Subs gave it a go but should never have started Huddlestone, I'm concerned about all the comments he's making in the press, stop apologising to everyone, back yourself and tell it like it is, fuck that 'proudness of the effort' from the players in the biggest game of the season, start cracking some heads and getting the fuckers to work harder.

Subs - All of them had a more positive affect on the side than those they replaced, which wasn't fucking difficult.

Lastly, The Emirates - really superb stadium to watch football, atmosphere is shite though, as are the Hotdogs, and there are loads of genuine ****s that sit up in the Club Level bit.

I don't get how Gallas can be to blame for the first three goals ? To the side of him you say Vertonghen "Lazy fucker", Naughton "please stop" and Walker "piss poor". Ahead of him Hudd "N/A fuck off". Doesn't this somewhat explain Gallas looking a bit stretched ? And what is the alternative to Gallas ? Dawson's was looking equally stretched, his appearance had a direct impact on the 4th goal and is clearly not a better option.

I honestly think Gallas, whilst not being faultless or perfect, has been our only consistent defender, and until Kaboul is fit or we have a better option in the U19's I think replacing him would be daft whilst all around him are as unreliable as they are.

 

[EnfieldYiddo]

I really think Gylfi has a lot more to offer; to write him off so early in is ludicrous (of AVB that is)

Saying that though I don't train the players and I don't have his football acumen; he's possibly just not going to cut the mustard.

Shame because I feel with knock downs from Ade he could unleash that shot of his he became infamous for last season...

At 22, he has potential to grow into (the given) system.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

I don't get how Gallas can be to blame for the first three goals ? To the side of him you say Vertonghen "Lazy fucker", Naughton "please stop" and Walker "piss poor". Ahead of him Hudd "N/A fuck off". Doesn't this somewhat explain Gallas looking a bit stretched ? And what is the alternative to Gallas ? Dawson's was looking equally stretched, his appearance had a direct impact on the 4th goal and is clearly not a better option.

I honestly think Gallas, whilst not being faultless or perfect, has been our only consistent defender, and until Kaboul is fit or we have a better option in the U19's I think replacing him would be daft whilst all around him are as unreliable as they are.

He was a big part, as were others, of the first three goals. I think it's pretty clear from my ratings BC that I wasn't a fan of any of our defence yesterday. I'm one of Gallas' biggest defenders on here but I don't see the problem with calling it like it is after a game like yesterday. The truth is that Gallas is marshalling our defence, we have now lost 4 games in the league in a row, conceding 12 goals. Could Dawson do any worse in his position in the next game? I'm not sure, but we are defending like ****s at the moment and to be honest I don't see the problem with changing it.

 

[sloth]

Got to be honest mate, I'm very surprised by this reaction.

Playing with heart and desire in a NLD is a given, defending like a bunch of 5 year old ****s was unforgivable, and it's not like it was the first time it has happened yesterday.

Yes people will say Adebayor's idiocy is what cost us. Up to a point this may well be true, but you can't ignore that we conceded some bad goals today and didn't put up the fight that we could have. A 4-4-1 can still be compact and hard to break down, it just requires players to put in a real shift for the cause. Unfortunately the likes of Bale and Defoe can't be bothered, Lennon tries harder than the other two but isn't really up to it and the likes of Hudd and Dempsey lumber around offering fuck all. We made it too easy for them.

It doesn't matter if we have 10 men, you still have to do the basics such as close down your man, track runners and mark tightly from setpieces. All things that we seemed incapable of at times. I posted in the match thread how I thought all five goals could have been prevented, but time and again its these simple parts of defending that we do not do and make things all too easy for the opposition. Defensively we really do need to work on how we work as a unit and stuff such as pressing the ball, I lost count of the number of times two men went to the same ball and so left a simple pass on, such bad shape. Also the amount of time they had to take it and pick an option was hard to watch. Its not just the usual suspects either, even guys like Vertonghen seemed unwilling to get close or put a challenge in. As a unit things need sorting out.

I think I just take more account of us playing 10 men then you two do, and not only ten men, but ten men with Defoe as the lone striker. For me that doesn't work when you play 11 men, I'd expect us to do shit playing like that, so when we try it with 10 men I'm not surprised when it makes us poor.

So we got dealt a shit hand, as arguably we have been all season, but what I'm happy about is how we played that shit hand. There's a right way to go about things, and a wrong way, for the last few weeks we've been doing it the wrong way, imo, and I'd lost my faith that AVB could see the right way. It's a bit like playing a game of Back Gammon, luck of the dice determines your options, but there are still right moves and wrong moves no matter what you throw. If you watch the casual player play, and you know a bit about the game, you can tell they don't know what they're doing even if they win, even if they beat you, even if they win a few in a row, the basic beginners strategy is not to leave a spike open, whilst trying to set up a Prime, and they'll throw the dice and then they'll check what they can do against this rigid strategy. They don't understand the game, they know the moves and that is all. This is what it's felt like watching AVB these last few weeks. Yesterday, I felt he showed that he did know what it's all about, perhaps he's been risk adverse due to the media and what happened last time, perhaps he's not bee thinking straight under the pressure of it all, but yesterday he showed a grasp for the game, imo, that previously had been absent. Now it maybe that we continue to get shit throws of the dice, but in the end the best coaches win.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

He was a big part, as were others, of the first three goals. I think it's pretty clear from my ratings BC that I wasn't a fan of any of our defence yesterday. I'm one of Gallas' biggest defenders on here but I don't see the problem with calling it like it is after a game like yesterday. The truth is that Gallas is marshalling our defence, we have now lost 4 games in the league in a row, conceding 12 goals. Could Dawson do any worse in his position in the next game? I'm not sure, but we are defending like ****s at the moment and to be honest I don't see the problem with changing it.

I asked you to explain to me how Gallas was at fault for those three goals. The point isn't could Dawson do any worse, it's would he be any better, and the over whelming evidence over the years, and even this season, and even fucking yesterday is no. I don't see a problem with changing it, but only if it will improve, and there are three defensive positions doing worse than Gallas right now, nearly every single week, yet you advocate changing Gallas. This is flawed logic IMO.

 

[jonathanhotspur]

I think Gallas has been our best defender this season but even I was disappointed with his weak challenge for Podolski's goal. Podolski (I think) also went around him as though he wasn't there for the fourth. It was not good.

 

[kendoddsdadsdogsdead]

I asked you to explain to me how Gallas was at fault for those three goals. The point isn't could Dawson do any worse, it's would he be any better, and the over whelming evidence over the years, and even this season, and even fucking yesterday is no. I don't see a problem with changing it, but only if it will improve, and there are three defensive positions doing worse than Gallas right now, nearly every single week, yet you advocate changing Gallas. This is flawed logic IMO.

I don't rate Dawson particularly but woul
d prefer him there than gallas while Kaboul is out. You say he's struggling because everyone around him is poor. He's meant to be the talker
the organiser, the leader at the back. I would say the others look all over the place partly because hes not doing what he's in the side to do. What else Is he in there to do? He's weak in the air, gets brushed aside easily, has lost a yard of pace and his distribution is shocking, I haven't seen him make a clean connection with the football in weeks. The only time he finds our players most
of the time is when he goes back to the keeper, which is a lot by the way even when under no pressure. We generally lose it from there. The sooner Kaboul comes back to take his place the better. Until then dawsons preferable

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I think I just take more account of us playing 10 men then you two do, and not only ten men, but ten men with Defoe as the lone striker. For me that doesn't work when you play 11 men, I'd expect us to do shit playing like that, so when we try it with 10 men I'm not surprised when it makes us poor.

So we got dealt a shit hand, as arguably we have been all season, but what I'm happy about is how we played that shit hand. There's a right way to go about things, and a wrong way, for the last few weeks we've been doing it the wrong way, imo, and I'd lost my faith that AVB could see the right way. It's a bit like playing a game of Back Gammon, luck of the dice determines your options, but there are still right moves and wrong moves no matter what you throw. If you watch the casual player play, and you know a bit about the game, you can tell they don't know what they're doing even if they win, even if they beat you, even if they win a few in a row, the basic beginners strategy is not to leave a spike open, whilst trying to set up a Prime, and they'll throw the dice and then they'll check what they can do against this rigid strategy. They don't understand the game, they know the moves and that is all. This is what it's felt like watching AVB these last few weeks. Yesterday, I felt he showed that he did know what it's all about, perhaps he's been risk adverse due to the media and what happened last time, perhaps he's not bee thinking straight under the pressure of it all, but yesterday he showed a grasp for the game, imo, that previously had been absent. Now it maybe that we continue to get shit throws of the dice, but in the end the best coaches win.

I like your back gammon analogy Sloth. I also think his choices at half time were good ones. Especially in hindsight having mulled on it more.

But for some unfortunate dice like Bale wasting the chance and Dawson's failure to win his header the changes may have actually worked, against considerable odds. This is what you want from a coach.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

I think Gallas has been our best defender this season but even I was disappointed with his weak challenge for Podolski's goal. Podolski (I think) also went around him as though he wasn't there for the fourth. It was not good.

I also would accuse him along with Hudd of ball watching for the first and I was disappointed that he didn't get a challenge in for the cross for the third.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

I asked you to explain to me how Gallas was at fault for those three goals. The point isn't could Dawson do any worse, it's would he be any better, and the over whelming evidence over the years, and even this season, and even fucking yesterday is no. I don't see a problem with changing it, but only if it will improve, and there are three defensive positions doing worse than Gallas right now, nearly every single week, yet you advocate changing Gallas. This is flawed logic IMO.

Gallas is the one leading the defence, and I don't think conceding 12 goals in 4 games is a very good example of that. You could put Gallas at right back if you want, but I would prefer to see Dawson/Caulker with Vertonghen in the middle for West Ham.

 

[mattyspurs]

This is the closest account to what I saw yesterday, barring the 'taking heart from the second half'.

Hudd was an absolute embarrassment, I would also have marked Gallas lower, he was a big part of the first 3 goals in my opinion, along with Hudd. Although like Mr P said he may be becoming a bit of a spent force, he is playing a lot and his fitness is a worry.

I cant be as positive as most on this subject, and I certainly laughed out loud with the number of threads praising AVB and how 'proud people were of him for giving it a go' etc. For fuck sake boys, it was the NLD what did you expect him to do in the second half? See it out for damage limitation when we were 3-1 down??

The changes just replaced our weakest players with on the day with ones that couldn't have done any worse if they tried. To all those saying 'we would have won with 11 men', I'm yet to see us go 1-0 in any game and keep attacking rather than sitting back, and this is where I cant jump on the bandwagon of the unrealistic credit of AVB. Our defending, is in my opinion, worse than it has been for years. To get carved open like we did in the first half was a disgrace, 10 men or not, you need to set up to defend properly. And we had Lloris to thank for that scoreline not being 8 or 9. Sorry but that's the realism of it. I'm prepared for all the negs and dumbs coming my way for saying this, but at the moment I am genuinely concerned about us, really fucking concerned that we are pissing away all the work that we have done in the last 4 years. Levy/AVB/Redknapp are all to blame.

Ratings:

Lloris - 7 Without him in the first half and coming off his line as quick as he did in the second, we would have been buried, Wigan style.

Walker - 3 Just piss poor, taking far too long on the ball.
Gallas - 4 Trying to marshall the defence, looks spent, needs to sit out.
Verts - 6 Good ball through to Defoe for the opener, comfortable on the ball, lazy fucker without it though.
Naughton - 3 Please stop, please stop trying to see something that isn't there with this lad, at left back he honestly looks like someone swapped his legs round while he was asleep.

Hudd - N/A Fuck off.
Sandro - 6 Tried hard, thank god.

Lennon - 3 Absolutely invisible.
Adebayor - N/A
Bale - 6 Fits and starts, well taken goal but has to better with the chance later on.

Defoe - 4 Thanks Ade, we now have to watch Defoe meandering about as the lone striker for the next 3 games.

AVB - 4 Subs gave it a go but should never have started Huddlestone, I'm concerned about all the comments he's making in the press, stop apologising to everyone, back yourself and tell it like it is, fuck that 'proudness of the effort' from the players in the biggest game of the season, start cracking some heads and getting the fuckers to work harder.

Subs - All of them had a more positive affect on the side than those they replaced, which wasn't fucking difficult.

Lastly, The Emirates - really superb stadium to watch football, atmosphere is shite though, as are the Hotdogs, and there are loads of genuine ****s that sit up in the Club Level bit.

that was just for you Bear. Just because you asked me so nicely earlier, you ****!

 

[cozzo]

I don't get how Gallas can be to blame for the first three goals ? To the side of him you say Vertonghen "Lazy fucker", Naughton "please stop" and Walker "piss poor". Ahead of him Hudd "N/A fuck off". Doesn't this somewhat explain Gallas looking a bit stretched ? And what is the alternative to Gallas ? Dawson's was looking equally stretched, his appearance had a direct impact on the 4th goal and is clearly not a better option.

I honestly think Gallas, whilst not being faultless or perfect, has been our only consistent defender, and until Kaboul is fit or we have a better option in the U19's I think replacing him would be daft whilst all around him are as unreliable as they are.

Like I have been saying on here, some people just don't like Gallas, and nothing will change that. He will always be to blame for them as he is seen to be keeping Dawson out.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I think Gallas has been our best defender this season but even I was disappointed with his weak challenge for Podolski's goal. Podolski (I think) also went around him as though he wasn't there for the fourth. It was not good.

Come on JH, what else should he have done for Podolski's goal. He's tight on him, get's the challenge in quickly not allowing Podolski space, the ball just squirts of him and flummoxes the keeper. Looking at his position and action I think his reading of the situation is spot on.

Podolski has the jump on Gallas because he can sprint in the direction he's going, and Gallas who must start from a facing the ball position (because the ball player is straight ahead of them) has to react (to the ball and Podolskis movement) and turn. His starting position is correct in that sequence IMO. His reading is right IMO.

What isn't so clever is Dawson, playing in a back three, giving the attacker a 6/7 yard head start then deciding to charge him up toward the half way line, leaving a massive gap (in the back 3 - not four) and no chance of recovery - and losing the challenge. It was a very flawed piece of reading and decision making, and it should have been a much easier decision from a simple long clearance.

I think of all our defenders currently Gallas's reading and actions are without doubt the best of the bunch. His execution isn't always perfect, but that's not what I expect, no-one's is. Players like Walker and Dawson make bad decisions repeatedly, time and time again. One minute after Dawson's rush of blood that led to the 4th goal he dived in again and didn't get the ball leaving them in behind us again.

When Kaboul is fit I'll understand Gallas getting a rest. But until we have a proper midfield that protects it's defence even Kaboul will not make much difference.

 

[mpickard2087]

I think I just take more account of us playing 10 men then you two do, and not only ten men, but ten men with Defoe as the lone striker. For me that doesn't work when you play 11 men, I'd expect us to do shit playing like that, so when we try it with 10 men I'm not surprised when it makes us poor.

So we got dealt a shit hand, as arguably we have been all season, but what I'm happy about is how we played that shit hand. There's a right way to go about things, and a wrong way, for the last few weeks we've been doing it the wrong way, imo, and I'd lost my faith that AVB could see the right way. It's a bit like playing a game of Back Gammon, luck of the dice determines your options, but there are still right moves and wrong moves no matter what you throw. If you watch the casual player play, and you know a bit about the game, you can tell they don't know what they're doing even if they win, even if they beat you, even if they win a few in a row, the basic beginners strategy is not to leave a spike open, whilst trying to set up a Prime, and they'll throw the dice and then they'll check what they can do against this rigid strategy. They don't understand the game, they know the moves and that is all. This is what it's felt like watching AVB these last few weeks. Yesterday, I felt he showed that he did know what it's all about, perhaps he's been risk adverse due to the media and what happened last time, perhaps he's not bee thinking straight under the pressure of it all, but yesterday he showed a grasp for the game, imo, that previously had been absent. Now it maybe that we continue to get shit throws of the dice, but in the end the best coaches win.

We had the shit hand, he continued playing with it till we were busted (HT 3-1 down) and changed too late to a slightly more effective set-up. Credit for making changes and not getting annihalated, but it was far too late. We saw 30 mins of pretty comical defending and how not to be a defensive unit. I don't see much progress Sloth to be honest.

I wasn't strictly talking about yesterday, Its commenting on what I have seen throughout this season and yesterday just bought things to a head. As you say you have concerns, I dont know if they are the same as mine but we seem all over the place at times in defence and have gifted great chances to every team we have played. The individual contributions of the likes of Bale, Defoe, Lennon Hudd et al have been discussed numerous times but I refuse to believe that a manager cannot instill a bit of discipline in them and the understanding that they need to work hard, so that when we do face situations like yesterday we can be a disciplined and compact unit and at least go down valiantly, rather than pretty much waving them through to our goal.

I could go into stuff like lax marking at setpieces, and the tendency to completely stand off the opposition player so they have all the time in the world to size up the options but won't. Basically a solid foundation and defensive discipline needs to be built first IMO, we haven't seen that so far.

 

[mpickard2087]

Come on JH, what else should he have done for Podolski's goal. He's tight on him, get's the challenge in quickly not allowing Podolski space, the ball just squirts of him and flummoxes the keeper. Looking at his position and action I think his reading of the situation is spot on.

Podolski has the jump on Gallas because he can sprint in the direction he's going, and Gallas who must start from a facing the ball position (because the ball player is straight ahead of them) has to react (to the ball and Podolskis movement) and turn. His starting position is correct in that sequence IMO. His reading is right IMO.

What isn't so clever is Dawson, playing in a back three, giving the attacker a 6/7 yard head start then deciding to charge him up toward the half way line, leaving a massive gap (in the back 3 - not four) and no chance of recovery - and losing the challenge. It was a very flawed piece of reading and decision making, and it should have been a much easier decision from a simple long clearance.

I think of all our defenders currently Gallas's reading and actions are without doubt the best of the bunch. His execution isn't always perfect, but that's not what I expect, no-one's is. Players like Walker and Dawson make bad decisions repeatedly, time and time again. One minute after Dawson's rush of blood that led to the 4th goal he dived in again and didn't get the ball leaving them in behind us again.

When Kaboul is fit I'll understand Gallas getting a rest. But until we have a proper midfield that protects it's defence even Kaboul will not make much difference.

I went through all the goals yesterday, I agree second goal was unlucky on Gallas. What was at fault was the massive hole down the spine of the team that allowed a simple pass to be played into feet in the penalty area. There were numerous runners untracked too... but that irrellevant.

Third goal I don't think him and Vertonghen should let Giroud score that, between you would like to think it gets cut out.

Fourth I think all three of them are at fault. Dawson charging out and not winning the flick, Vertonghen then makes no effort to get close to Walcott and lets him get it under control and have all the time in the world to make the pass. Gallas though still gets burned pretty badly on the outside, he didn't even get close to him. Maybe can't do a lot about it but it still shows up his lack of pace/mobility and reflects pretty badly on him and how long he has left.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Gallas is the one leading the defence, and I don't think conceding 12 goals in 4 games is a very good example of that. You could put Gallas at right back if you want, but I would prefer to see Dawson/Caulker with Vertonghen in the middle for West Ham.

I think you are talking out of your furry arse bear. Gallas cannot stop those around him being bad or making poor decisions. How is this marshalling supposed to make Walker have a brain ? How can his marshalling make Huddlestone more mobile or Lennon and Bale have a conscience. Did Dawson's "marshalling" ever have this effect ? The 4th goal is a prime example. Dawson, the player you want to replace him with, the vastly experienced club captain, makes the worst decision of the game by any of our cb's.

This is scapegoat time.

Gallas and Sandro are the players I am probably least unhappy with this season.The ones that produce a consistent level of performance. He ain't perfect, he makes errors, but his reading and actions are usually what I want and expect from him. I wish I could say the same about most of the others.