Underinvestment in Players

panoma

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Jan 16, 2012
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#81
To be honest we are so shit at buying players that alone need to be looked at. Since the 15/16 season only Sissoko and maybe Davinson could be considered "successes".

Meantime Liverpool have bought Salah, VVD, Allisson, Robertson, wijaldum, Mane and if we include Davinson I should also include Matip and Fabinho i guess.

Sad stuff
 

mill

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#82
I'm not getting too drawn into this. I understand the fundamentals of having competition for starting berth's, the notion that a few signings could've seen adequate opportunity for rotation and player rest.

What I would like to mention again is the lack of application at times.

Rose has been out for a period this season, often rotated with Davies, and about to be match free for 3 weeks.

He can't be that fatigued to produce such a brainfart as yesterday. Nor am I accepting he's rusty.

It's about application, focus and desire. I can handle if a player is limited in ability, but feck me, when earning over a £million a year, I'd expect the basics to be a given.

I'm not looking for scape goats either, Rose has also performed well at times this season.

No, this can be aimed at many, plenty who seem to go through the motions in games without really pushing themselves.

I'm not saying our players go out to purposely lose, but I do think that they could show more application, desire and focus to win at times.
I agree with what you’re saying but there’s an argument to suggest that failing to freshen up the squad has contributed to this malaise from the players. They need to be kept on their toes imo
 

samspurs92

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#83
Lack of investment is a big part of the problem.

But I truly believe Poch has had his worst season yet.

He persists with the bullshit diamond in midfield with Kane up front when it hasn’t worked for five games in a row. We only started playing well against Dortmund last week when he dropped Son back in to midfield and then he goes and sets us up with the diamond again yesterday in the second half.

He obviously is unable to motivate the players at the moment too and I think he needs to take a long hard look at himself and his decisions.

His stubbornness with mid game changes is crippling us, whenever a team makes a tactical change we’re either unable to adjust or too arrogant to think we need to.
 

dontcallme

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Mar 18, 2005
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#84
To be honest we are so shit at buying players that alone need to be looked at. Since the 15/16 season only Sissoko and maybe Davinson could be considered "successes".

Meantime Liverpool have bought Salah, VVD, Allisson, Robertson, wijaldum, Mane and if we include Davinson I should also include Matip and Fabinho i guess.

Sad stuff
This is the issue for me. If we don't have huge money to spend or have the ability to attract the top level players then we still need a strategy that suits our situation.

One way was bringing through players from our youth system.This is very difficultfor any Prem club. Getting a young,inexperienced player up to the level of playing top level football is difficult. We have done well with Winks and Kane but KWP, Skipp,Onomah and others currently look below that level and only time, hard work and experience can get them there.

So if we can't rely on our young players then we need to be buying. We also need to sell those around us. David Brooks cost £11.5m and his wages would be very reasonable. No denying he would have been extremely helpful this season.

But whether Poch only wants top quality now, Levy is just being tight with his mind elsewhere or we don't have the right transfer setup it is pretty clear this area needs room for improvement.
 

worcestersauce

"I'm no optimist I'm just a prisoner of hope
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#85
This is the issue for me. If we don't have huge money to spend or have the ability to attract the top level players then we still need a strategy that suits our situation.

One way was bringing through players from our youth system.This is very difficultfor any Prem club. Getting a young,inexperienced player up to the level of playing top level football is difficult. We have done well with Winks and Kane but KWP, Skipp,Onomah and others currently look below that level and only time, hard work and experience can get them there.

So if we can't rely on our young players then we need to be buying. We also need to sell those around us. David Brooks cost £11.5m and his wages would be very reasonable. No denying he would have been extremely helpful this season.

But whether Poch only wants top quality now, Levy is just being tight with his mind elsewhere or we don't have the right transfer setup it is pretty clear this area needs room for improvement.
Just out of curiosity if Winks was playing at another club would you be calling for us to buy him?
 

coys200

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#86
I’m obviously not gonna say that investment wouldn’t help. But I don’t in this slump it was the reason it’s clearly been complacency and lack of motivation. The two defeats that have really hurt us have come after both Dortmund games. It’s likes these players just thought they could rock up and win. You can see it and feel it our best performances have mainly been in the CL. So you have to lay that at Pochettino or these players. I very much doubt a grealish would have made the slightest bit of difference. You can’t tell me it’s normal to keep Dortmund out for 180 minutes and yet concede 4 to Burnley and Southampton in same time.
 

dontcallme

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#88
Just out of curiosity if Winks was playing at another club would you be calling for us to buy him?
I would be interested. I think the benefit of a youth player is they can be brought in slowly and in many cases are happier to be squad players as they have been working for years to get to the first team squad.

Winks is a 23 year old Englsih player with a few international caps. If we bought him he would be expensive and would likely be more demanding of first team football.
 

worcestersauce

"I'm no optimist I'm just a prisoner of hope
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#89
Not sure I’d be calling for it. But I’d be delighted if we did. In today’s market he’s a £40m player at least.
I am pleased to hear it, I am a fan of Winks because he gives us heart and soul as one of our own and I want him at our club, I think I need to watch him a bit longer to be able to see your valuation of him though. I like that we bring through our young players however I believe we are now at the stage where to progress we need to look elsewhere and they need to be more than £40 million players in today's market.
 

Everlasting Seconds

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#90
I think a large part of this is that fan's expectations are probably unrealisticly high right now. By all accounts the goal given to Poch was to have us in a position where we could finish in the Top 4 once we'd moved in. He achieved this years early and kept it up, to the extent that even still being in the race in early March is now deemed a failure by many fans, when under the original plan that would have been an overachivement. t.
Indeed, it is abundantly clear that to a small group of SC users, the problem is the fans, and as long we could have the right fans, no problems would ever materialise. The only acceptable type of the fan is the fan who perpetually fears the 90' and accepts anything but.

But is this hyperbolic fan assessment actually true now? What expectations are so wildly out of order?
The expectation to:
To do a tiny bit more than zero reinforcements to the squad at all over two windows?
To not lose points in 4 matches in a row and squander a nice and stable top 4 standing?
To keep a 10 point lead over Arsenal?
To win the occasional top 6 match?

These aren't really that fantastic expectations. They are real, and dare I say it, down-to-earth.

And this wasted and over-used "we are ahead of schedule" sentiment. No, we aren't. We were most like ahead of schedule at a point. But we failed to seize that moment and reinforce that fortunate standing. Now, we are looking at a real possibility of regressing the clubs sportswise fortune to such a degree that we will open in the new stadium severely behind "the plan".

And even if we were advancing beyond any plan that was made in 2014, what kind of an excuse is that to fail now. I don't know any professional business manager who would say, "yes, this isn't going to well, but we are no-where near where we planned in 60 months ago, so all is fine". And if we have been smothering a plan, maybe the plan was all wrong in the first place, so why keep it as the yardstick over all yardsticks.

Sorry, no. This isn't the fan's fault. This isn't "overachieving" any longer. This spring so far, we are failing in domestic competitions and in keeping and developing a competitive squad, and that can't be excused by too demanding fans or some flawed and under-ambitious strategy meeting in May 2014.
 

shelfboy68

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Jun 14, 2008
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8,850
#91
During a summer transfer window the main focus of the club should be that window, last summer it most definitely was not. Last summer it was the stadium and when the man front and centre of the transfer campaign is also the man completely engrossed in the stadium project something is going to give and it did. I expected last summer to the beginning of a more aggressive transfer policy with the club being prepared to increase the spend on fees and wages but it didn't happen, this summer it has to happen, there really is no alternative now so whilst I accepted that circumstances done for us last summer that cannot happen again. This really is the time, we cross the Rubicon and go for it or we go backwards. Personally I have to believe Daniel Levy realises that.
At the start of this campaign we probably only needed three maybe four in but now we are looking at maybe six or seven in depending on departures as well.
So instead of just topping up the squad incrementally the club are now faced with potentially more of an overhaul situation which is not ideal, and along with that can any of us see the club taking on such an extensive spree because I can't it will be 2/3 in at best then relying on academy prospects some of whom will not be good enough.
I don't think anyone should expect too much from the team next season as it looks like we will not have the tools for the job which will take time to acquire again.
 

worcestersauce

"I'm no optimist I'm just a prisoner of hope
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#92
At the start of this campaign we probably only needed three maybe four in but now we are looking at maybe six or seven in depending on departures as well.
So instead of just topping up the squad incrementally the club are now faced with potentially more of an overhaul situation which is not ideal, and along with that can any of us see the club taking on such an extensive spree because I can't it will be 2/3 in at best then relying on academy prospects some of whom will not be good enough.
I don't think anyone should expect too much from the team next season as it looks like we will not have the tools for the job which will take time to acquire again.
Sir Alex Ferguson's Manchester United at best never won the title more than three time on the trot and after that he rebuilt/rejuvenated his squad, going back further Liverpool under Shankley and Paisley did the same thing, look at the first and last title winners of those clubs and even though it seemed a long endless run the players were totally different.
We are at that stage in the cycle where players have done the same thing for long enough that they lose that spark of variety and where players eyes wander, I am now pretty sure Toby Alderwiereld and Christian Eriksen will be leaving given the opportunity and there are others that we need to let go so I have to believe that the club realises we are beyond one or two additions and are at a new beginning.
It's not a case of us being shit so we need to start again and it's not me just wanting shiny new toys to play with, it is just the natural order of things and we missed our opportunity to get the process under way last summer.
 

coys200

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#93
Winks Is an established CL player an England international. Imagine if he was a Chelsea 1st team regular how much do you think he’d cost us to buy him. Even look at RLC he’s not even a regular starter done nothing in CL. Yet to buy him would cost you at least £35 m. Winks has to be £40m at least.
 

Flashspur

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Jul 28, 2012
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5,889
#94
Some self awareness was trying to jump out there.


Also there is no fucking cheese room.
I am so fucking pissed off with the cheese room fella, like seriously amped up. All that build up and nothing. How the fuck am I going to match the Taleggio with a glass of Domaine de la Janasse Châteauneuf-du-Pape while watching us get beaten by relegation fodder in the new gaff?
 

SpunkyBackpack

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Dec 8, 2005
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7,137
#95
I am so fucking pissed off with the cheese room fella, like seriously amped up. All that build up and nothing. How the fuck am I going to match the Taleggio with a glass of Domaine de la Janasse Châteauneuf-du-Pape while watching us get beaten by relegation fodder in the new gaff?
When has it become a crime to like cheese? I like cheese, in fact i like cheese more than football. In all honesty i'd be happier if we as a country leaned a bit more into cheese than football, social media would be a millions times happier because we'd all be so full of dairy we'd be too tired to post whiny whataboutry rants about other teams and nit picking with each other all the bloody time. Just nice discussions about port and rind.

Actually screw this forum, is there a CheeseCommunity i can transfer my account to?
 

Lighty64

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#96
The point is we didn't replace him, even though we knew Wanyama was out long-term.

That was just utter madness.
because Poch had made a promise to Foyth that he would be included in the CL squad, we would of had to replace him with a HG, I can't imagine the club buying the quality we need and then telling them they can't play in our CL. we needed to sell another non HG that was already in our 25 man CL squad, or Poch might of had to break his promise, which could of meant Foyth wanting away in the summer
 

Lighty64

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#97
But conversely, when we had our massive injury crisis we ground out good results.

Surely, that was when the squad showed its depth?

The injuries have been horrendous but there's more going on this season than that. What stands out to me is that we seem to giving away a lot of good chances, far more than previous years and far more so than our opponents. Why is that?

In most cases it's pretty clear. Teams sit back, we commit men forward, we make little headway until someone commits a poor individual error and then we're out of position and way too open.

So there's two problems: Players seem to be making (usually unforced) individual errors at a higher rate than previously and our central midfield is less capable of responding and constricting the opposition when something goes wrong. Dier/Dembele and Dembele/Wanyama were far more rigid and reactive duos than Winks/Sissoko (despite both doing well this season).

Why are we making so many stupid errors? Why did Lloris become so eratic? etc. There are so many potential reasons but hopefully we'll get over it soon.
mentally shattered, tiredness with pressure causes mistakes
 

Lighty64

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#99
To be honest we are so shit at buying players that alone need to be looked at. Since the 15/16 season only Sissoko and maybe Davinson could be considered "successes".

Meantime Liverpool have bought Salah, VVD, Allisson, Robertson, wijaldum, Mane and if we include Davinson I should also include Matip and Fabinho i guess.

Sad stuff
they have near on spent in that time the amount on players than we have on building a stadium, plus sold the best player at the time. we have only had 1 season where our crowd size has matched theirs. we are a million miles behind them in sponsorships and merchandise because they have been a massive club since the 70's. their now owners picked them up cheap at a time a lot more money is in the game which has allowed them to invest.
 

Lighty64

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Mentally strong teams win thing's mate it's the same for everyone else but as often is the case the team cannot handle expectation and so we get the invetiable fold up occur.
mentally strong, and mentally shattered are 2 big differences. if you are totally shattered your work will drop a level and mistakes will happen. we have literally been playing twice a week for 2 seasons, and not really had the summer off. with the injuries we have had on top of that, a lot of the squad have played with niggly injuries, or when out on their feet. we needed refreshing in the summer, but had to sell to consider it
 
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