Underinvestment in Players

vegassd

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No, I didn't misunderstand a thing, actually. But I do see that you enjoy twisting my words. Nobody said that fans expect a 10 point lead to Arsenal. However, once we are in such a wonderful position, there is the expectation to not waste that gap instantly, which I think is a very fair and quite down to earth expectations. Fan's expectations aren't too high, and even if they are, that's not the main problem. "Oh, just bring the right type of fans, and everything else is fine" is an absolutely nonsensical approach and speaks of 1) either disrespect for other fans or 2) that one is handsomely positioned on the club's pay roll.
I'm not twisting your words or being confrontational mate. I'm really not interested in a slagging match. :)

The 10 point thing is exactly what I'm talking about... the idea of expectations being based on a variable frame of context. I completely agree that at the start of the season none of us probably expected that we would create a 10 point gap. But the fact that we did create that gap shouldn't reset our field of view to the point where the 10 point gap is the minimum expectation.

Arsenal won their three games around the NLD, so in order to maintain that 10 point gap we would have had to beat Burnley, Chelsea and Southampton all away from home. That's fine as a "hope for" situation and I think you could go as far to say 4-6 points from 9 would be a reasonable expectation. But winning all three games is not a realistic expectation in my view.

The gap disappeared so quickly partly due to us playing poorly and partly due to the way the fixtures fell. The gap between Liverpool and City closed in a similar fashion. So I think it's more productive to be viewing the situation as after 30 games we have created a 1 point gap rather than being drawn in to a very small frame of context.

Put another way... had we taken those defeats early in the season and never created that 10 point gap in the first place - even more so if we had come from behind Arsenal in recent weeks to move 1 point ahead - we would probably view being 1 point ahead in a very different light. That's what I mean when I talk about the context of our expectations.

But anyway, this is a thread about how the club spends money so it's going to end up the same way all these threads do. I thought Saoirse wrote a really good post talking about why the Burnley and Southampton losses (plus Wolves, Watford and even United) feel so much more galling than they would have done even 5 years ago and I was agreeing with him by disagreeing with you, that's all.
 
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The annoying thing is most fans could see this happening unless we were lucky with injurys. I think the club has lost its transfer plan since we have lost dof and poch wanted final say. We always got the young talent like Bale, dele, lennon, daws, walker, hudd who turned out to be bargains. Admit we got a few wrong but don't understand us going away from this when it worked. Why didn't we go for brooks, maddison, mcguire, robertson, bowen, che adams. These would of come cheap and filled out squad.
 

shelfboy68

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The annoying thing is most fans could see this happening unless we were lucky with injurys. I think the club has lost its transfer plan since we have lost dof and poch wanted final say. We always got the young talent like Bale, dele, lennon, daws, walker, hudd who turned out to be bargains. Admit we got a few wrong but don't understand us going away from this when it worked. Why didn't we go for brooks, maddison, mcguire, robertson, bowen, che adams. These would of come cheap and filled out squad.
Maybe poch has a different requirement that he actively seeks when recruiting whatever it is those players seemingly were of no interest to him and also price is likely to be an issue as always.
 

Shadydan

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The annoying thing is most fans could see this happening unless we were lucky with injurys. I think the club has lost its transfer plan since we have lost dof and poch wanted final say. We always got the young talent like Bale, dele, lennon, daws, walker, hudd who turned out to be bargains. Admit we got a few wrong but don't understand us going away from this when it worked. Why didn't we go for brooks, maddison, mcguire, robertson, bowen, che adams. These would of come cheap and filled out squad.
All those players we used to go for were all garanteed starts in our team, the latter lot weren't. Have a look and compare where we were then to where we are now.
 
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Maybe poch has a different requirement that he actively seeks when recruiting whatever it is those players seemingly were of no interest to him and also price is likely to be an issue as always.
Maybe but there is talk we are chasing brooks as competition or to replace eriksen. Why pay 40+ when we could of got him for 8m last summer. Same with maddison who we are linked to. Seems like panic to me
 
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All those players we used to go for were all garanteed starts in our team, the latter lot weren't. Have a look and compare where we were then to where we are now.
Good point and your right. But all those players bar che adams you would say would of got plenty of minutes due to our squad depth this season.We should be saying to players and agents that they can be the next dele, kane, winks etc. Could understand if poch wanted experience or proven winners but we have done nothing last 18 months to build squad long term
 

vegassd

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The annoying thing is most fans could see this happening unless we were lucky with injurys. I think the club has lost its transfer plan since we have lost dof and poch wanted final say. We always got the young talent like Bale, dele, lennon, daws, walker, hudd who turned out to be bargains. Admit we got a few wrong but don't understand us going away from this when it worked. Why didn't we go for brooks, maddison, mcguire, robertson, bowen, che adams. These would of come cheap and filled out squad.
I think that would work if we only ever got the "good" ones, but we did pick up a bunch who didn't work like you say. When buying young players there is the risk of picking up those who never work out (eg. Bostock/Falque) and those who end up as middling players (eg. Townsend/Pienaar).

Those gambles on youth seemed to pay off overall 10-odd years ago because even those average-type players were quite handy for our goal of making the top 6 or 7 in the league and qualifying for Europa, especially when City weren't really a factor back then. I think that now our sights are set higher and there is vastly more money in the game, leaning heavily on those riskier youth transfers won't be as effective.

I'm with you in terms of that policy fizzling out since Poch has been here. It would appear that Poch has identified (at least in the lsat year or so) that he would prefer to buy those ready-made players who are match winners on their own and can improve not just our squad but our results over the course of a season. I kind of wish the club had just gone and bought a couple of players anyway, but I guess that wouldn't be supporting the manager.

Hopefully the board can find the money to buy the calibre of player that the manager wants this summer. Hard to see how we improve as a club if either the money isn't there or Poch doesn't want to accept those middling players.
 

Japhet

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Maybe but there is talk we are chasing brooks as competition or to replace eriksen. Why pay 40+ when we could of got him for 8m last summer. Same with maddison who we are linked to. Seems like panic to me
IMO the issue with players like Maddison and Brookes was that they wanted first team football which we couldn't guarantee. As a result they wouldn't join us. Things will be very different if we lose Eriksen. We're in a position where young players need a move to help their career and older players need a move to bolster their bank balances and we don't really do either.
 

daryl hannah

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Underinvestment isn't the only issue - the quality of scouting still has a huge question mark hanging over it as so many on here have pointed out. What is Hitchen's track record exactly? We let Brooks pass us by? We almost signed Papa Chiekh Diop? We seriously need to up our game.
 

Shadydan

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Good point and your right. But all those players bar che adams you would say would of got plenty of minutes due to our squad depth this season.We should be saying to players and agents that they can be the next dele, kane, winks etc. Could understand if poch wanted experience or proven winners but we have done nothing last 18 months to build squad long term
Come on - the majority of those players are certain starters in their current teams, everyone knows what the deal is at Spurs, we more or less have a settled starting eleven or we did at least in the summer, players aren't coming here to sit on the bench and rotate - especially young players nowadays, they want to play first team football and there's teams in the PL that will guarantee them game time.

The irony is that no-one had heard much about Bowen and Che Adams before this season, at least not on our radar but consistent game time and first team football has allowed them to progress to the level they're at now, something they wouldn't have got at Spurs.
 
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Come on - the majority of those players are certain starters in their current teams, everyone knows what the deal is at Spurs, we more or less have a settled starting eleven or we did at least in the summer, players aren't coming here to sit on the bench and rotate - especially young players nowadays, they want to play first team football and there's teams in the PL that will guarantee them game time.

The irony is that no-one had heard much about Bowen and Che Adams before this season, at least not on our radar but consistent game time and first team football has allowed them to progress to the level they're at now, something they wouldn't have got at Spurs.
Fair points and agree with most of them, our best team does pick itself. But we should of been thinking long term for eriksen competition/replacement if he wont sign. Brooks was worth the gamble imo now talking 40m + to bring him in. We should of bought him and others in and loaned out. Since dele who nobody thought would be such a key player we have taken oyr eye off the ball in british youth
 

Shadydan

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Fair points and agree with most of them, our best team does pick itself. But we should of been thinking long term for eriksen competition/replacement if he wont sign. Brooks was worth the gamble imo now talking 40m + to bring him in. We should of bought him and others in and loaned out. Since dele who nobody thought would be such a key player we have taken oyr eye off the ball in british youth
Again Brooks wouldn't have got the game time with us he's has at Bournemouth to improve, that's just the reality of the situation I'm afraid.

Going forward though we'll definitely need re-investment this summer for sure especially since there's a few players who's future's are uncertain.
 

spuradik

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46 million academy is not 0 investment
Infrastructure investment becomes meaningless if you don't assemble/acquire quality talent to develop in it. Right now we don't have any youth player capable of breaking into the first team or the squad for that matter. The jury is still out on whether any of them will someday turn out to be top 4 quality ala Sancho or Rashford. And before someone says Skipp, Poch wouldn't be playing him if we weren't so short of bodies in midfield. Not knocking on the kid, but I think he has a couple seasons to go before he's even ready for the level we're aiming to be at.

Right now, City and Chelsea have the best youth talent in the country by miles. It's a shame they don't play them enough.

Edit: The point I'm trying to make here is that the academy infrastructure is like the new stadium. What's the point in that investment if you're not going to get players of the requisite talent/quality to train and play in it. Because at the end of the day what matters is what you do on the pitch, not showing off brand new buildings and facilities.
 
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coopsieyid

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Maybe but there is talk we are chasing brooks as competition or to replace eriksen. Why pay 40+ when we could of got him for 8m last summer. Same with maddison who we are linked to. Seems like panic to me

Because it wouldn't make a blind bit of fucking difference & people would still complain.

If we'd gone for those players,, at those prices, this place would've been full of nothing but, "fucking tight Levy shopping in the bargain basement again when we need to be spending on real quality"


It happens all the fucking time. "Why don't we unearth these gems before spunking £Xm on them 12 months later when they've proven themselves elsewhere?"

But as soon as a solid link is brought up, the shit hits the fan & it's nothing but a lack of ambition and Levy being a cheap ****.

Apologies for the aggressive tone of this response. It's nothing personal, it just pisses me off.
 

dtxspurs

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Because it wouldn't make a blind bit of fucking difference & people would still complain.

If we'd gone for those players,, at those prices, this place would've been full of nothing but, "fucking tight Levy shopping in the bargain basement again when we need to be spending on real quality"


It happens all the fucking time. "Why don't we unearth these gems before spunking £Xm on them 12 months later when they've proven themselves elsewhere?"

But as soon as a solid link is brought up, the shit hits the fan & it's nothing but a lack of ambition and Levy being a cheap ****.

Apologies for the aggressive tone of this response. It's nothing personal, it just pisses me off.
I don't think anyone complained about Foyth. Theres clearly a difference in Foyth & Brooks and Njie & Nkoudou... All about scouting.

Theres also a time and place for both to be true. We need a badass midfielder or two right now. The time to take some prospects was when Dembele was still here, now we fucked that up and we need a badass. We should take a punt on a young striker now with Kane established. AM with the current group as well. Its the difference in first 11 players and getting some developmental types.
 

Shadydan

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Infrastructure investment becomes meaningless if you don't assemble/acquire quality talent to develop in it. Right now we don't have any youth player capable of breaking into the first team or the squad for that matter. The jury is still out on whether any of them will someday turn out to be top 4 quality ala Sancho or Rashford. And before someone says Skipp, Poch wouldn't be playing him if we weren't so short of bodies in midfield. Not knocking on the kid, but I think he has a couple seasons to go before he's even ready for the level we're aiming to be at.

Right now, City and Chelsea have the best youth talent in the country by miles. It's a shame they don't play them enough.

Edit: The point I'm trying to make here is that the academy infrastructure is like the new stadium. What's the point in that investment if you're not going to get players of the requisite talent/quality to train and play in it. Because at the end of the day what matters is what you do on the pitch, not showing off brand new buildings and facilities.
Are you forgetting Kane came through the very same academy?
 

spuradik

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Are you forgetting Kane came through the very same academy?
If we're going to be that picky then Kane's been with us for far longer than the new training ground which was only completed in 2012. Kane joined us in 2004 I think. If it weren't for Poch believing in him it was highly likely that he would've been playing for someone else. But that's besides the point.

What I'm trying to say is that our academy seems to have lost it's way similar to how we've forgotten to do succession planning for the first team. We seem to be resting on our laurels (in players such as Kane, Mason, Bentaleb, Winks - all of whom were with us prior to the new training ground) and facilities rather than attracting potential talent. Again my earlier statement was about the over emphasis on the facilities rather than the personnel.
 

Lighty64

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Maybe but there is talk we are chasing brooks as competition or to replace eriksen. Why pay 40+ when we could of got him for 8m last summer. Same with maddison who we are linked to. Seems like panic to me
if we had gone for Brooks last season, and Bournemouth enquired too, just like when Maddison he was at Coventry, he might of still made the same choice. these youngsters want to play football, week in, week out. not sat on the bench hoping to get a game.

not sure Maddison would consider us, he sent out some disrespectful tweets about our club. he might prefer playing every game for Leicester, and not being too far away from his original home where he has friends and family
 
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