The ousting of Daniel (COYS)

[chas vs dave]

On revenue we're 5th in England and 9th in the world. So reasonable expectations might look like this:

• Consistently playing good football.
• Qualifying for the Champions League more often than not, especially from next year when 5th in England will normally get a place.
• Occasionally having a poor season where with several games to go we're out of the UCL race, but also occasionally having a good season where we challenge for the title.
• Having sufficient squad depth to perform reasonably in domestic cups even when we rotate.
• Consistently very strong European performances given our greater financial strength than all bar 5 clubs on the continent - UCL quarter-finals, or at least getting to the semi-final if we're in the Europa. The Conference League should be winnable even with some rotation throughout.
• Comparable ticket prices to e.g. Arsenal who are similar in expectations, location, and having a modern ground. They charge an average of £1,095 when they are in the Europa, including 7 cup matches. Our prices are significantly higher despite no cup games being included.

Highly defensive football, terrible cup performances (not failing to win them, but losing to the likes of Colchester, Mura, Pacos de Ferreira etc), the most expensive tickets in the world, and mediocre league performances four years in a row now is not reasonable. It's not outside our control. It's the result of some very, very, very bad decision-making. Which is a real shame because I do think the board generally did fairly well up until that infamous no-transfers-window.

And that's a fair response

 

[Mattspur]

Is it any criticism of Levy that you have an issue with or just what you would consider to be 'hyperbole'?

It just the “hyperbole”, although I wouldn’t call it that as I believe the statements these people make are made to be taken seriously.

I’ve got no problem with criticism of Levy as long as it’s measured and factual.

 

[joelstinton14]

Do you ever stop looking at things in such a binary way?

Where should spurs expect to finish?

This season has been a failure, however not every season has been, and the context of a season can change, due to a multitude of reasons, that enic, or any other owner can't control.

That's not defending them, it's the reality of the world.

Sadly nuance and context is in short supply these days, I guess with social media that was always going to be the case.

It’s been an horrendous season but only a couple of times have I seen people talk about our awful luck with injuries / certainly not in the media (or Liverpool’s to be fair). That is one thing out of the hands of the boards control- to a degree at least.

We lost key players at important times. We seen injures to players that are replacing injured players. Bentacur and Yves have been out long term. We didn’t have Kulu, Romero, Richy at all or for a large proportion before the WC or Christmas. Lost lloris, sess, Emerson, Davies after. It’s meant little rhythm or cohesion in the side as well as players like Hoijberg being run into the ground because they play every game.

You could point to lack of depth but as mentioned above, it’s ok to lose one player, but multiple people in the same position, keys ones at that in our midfield and full backs, we’re going to suffer. I may be optimistic but that may have cost us 10/12 point this season? Possibly enough to change the complexion of our season? If so then the whole narrative changes, from the media, the fans, how we view where we are, where we are going. Possibilities for next season. Conte perhaps committing. The outlook changes.

 

[SirNiNyHotspur]

It just the “hyperbole”, although I wouldn’t call it that as I believe the statements these people make are made to be taken seriously.

I’ve got no problem with criticism of Levy as long as it’s measured and factual.

Anytime anyone wants to criticize Levy if you can just go through the right channels and have Mattspur approve if it acceptable, he's totally neutral and will let you know what's measured and factual...

 

[jurgen]

Anytime anyone wants to criticize Levy if you can just go through the right channels and have Mattspur approve if it acceptable, he's totally neutral and will let you know what's measured and factual...

And don't forget to include bank statements proving you are a CEO of a billion-pound company, otherwise I'm afraid your opinion is invalid

 

[SirNiNyHotspur]

And don't forget to include bank statements proving you are a CEO of a billion-pound company, otherwise I'm afraid your opinion is invalid

 

[cliff jones]

It’s why we bought Brazil’s number 9.

and in previous seasons no one, no one, no one, you get the drift, oh Vinny, forgot about him, then no one again

 

[mil1lion]

2001 - ENIC take over with a goal of getting us into Champions League
2006- We come close missing out on the last day of the season. ENIC decide a change is needed to push over the line.
2008 - Win League cup
2010 - we finally achieve CL qualification for the first time. Quite the achievement given our league finished prior to ENIC takeover and how competitive the league is.
2011 - A new era at the club begins with a vision to cement us as consistent CL side and build a new stadium
2019 - Make CL final, stadium built, consistent CL qualification, global exposure massively increased. Focus now shifts to winning things. Appoint one of the most widely respected managers in world football with a proven track record to help get us over the line (Mourinho).
2021 - Mourinho does not work out. Another elite manager with a proven winning record is appointed (Conte). Significant funds are spent to back him. Again we fail to win anything.

I think broad strokes that's the last 20 years. We clearly have a strategy and a vision. It has just happened a lot slower than many fans would like and ultimately we have failed to win things despite best efforts in the last few years.

People paint the club as a sh*t show with no ambition, no plan. A lot of people like to think the sky is falling down. It's really not. The stick to beat Levy with is our lack of trophies despite best efforts and a sensible approach. That's a fair, balanced criticism. People should stick to that but they should also understand how difficult it is to win things and how competitive the league is.

I think our vision over the years has been to sign young potential and develop them. We're not going to spend on world class players so the plan is to invest in future prospects and develop them into world class. We would look to get a modern day manager with new ideas and tactics to work with the state of the art training facilities.

I think that has been our vision for a long time. Pretty much going back to when we brought in Arnesen with Jol as the successor to Santini. We then turned to Ramos who was another modern day manager with high stock at the time. I think the plan was always to keep on that track. However things turned bad under Ramos so we changed course and went with a less risky Redknapp who had experience digging teams out of a hole in this country. It too risky to bring a new coach in our position.

Our time under Redknapp probably lasted longer than the board anticipated. He did better than expected and got the best out of the young players like Bale and Modric. Once things started to turn we turned back to our original plan and went for the young AVB. Another modern day coach who we felt could develop players and make the most of our training facilities.

When things went bad again we remained on course and got another modern day coach in Pochettino. We hit the jackpot really with him and got the most out of the young talent we had. However the conveyor belt stopped for a while and we signed no new young talent for him to develop. The squad suffered and it ended again.

This is where we lost track of our vision. I'm not sure if it's because we were in our new stadium and felt we could take a different approach. Whatever the thinking we got an old school manager in Jose with a history of working with world class players and winning with them. Yet we didn't and were never prepared to go sign those world class players. We continued on course with our philosophy to sign more young prospects. Only with the exception of an older Bale to try and satisfy the need for elite players.

When things turned bad we had no clue what we wanted. We seemed to flirt with the idea of going for someone like Ten Hag who would have fit perfect with our plan to develop a young squad. For some reason he didn't seem high profile enough after Jose. Are they thinking with the new stadium they need a big name to attract sponsors etc? I have no idea what they're thinking now. They ended up desperate and getting Nuno who also didn't fit the plan.

After a few months we turn to Conte who is yet another Jose. We did the same, signed young players as before and got one old generation player in Perisic. It was another appointment that didn't fit our plan. It's been a crazy few years where the club have lost focus on what their plan is. You simply don't get Jose or Conte if you have no intention to be bold in the window and sign top players.

To suggest things have gone to plan is plain wrong. They have bounced up and down. From modern day to old school manager. From having a DOF to not having one at all. Not to say things always should go to plan but we completely moved away from the plan. Like having Jol under Arnesen made sense, having AVB and Ramos made sense because they fit a similar thought. It just didn't work with AVB and Ramos but that happens. Getting Poch with Mitchell made sense too. They all fit the vision. Getting Redknapp, Jose and Conte are not the same plan and only 1 worked out.

We should have learned from Jose and gone straight back to a man manager who develops. I think about a player like Sess for example who has been disappointing. Yet he has never got to work under someone like Pochettino here. I think sticking with the same policy to sign young players and getting managers who need experienced 'been there and won in it' players is where we got it wrong. That's why it's taken so long because of the mistakes over the years and losing sight of the plan. The fact the same mistakes have been made for the last 3 years is the big concern.

I do feel since we moved to the stadium we're lost as to what we want now. Rather than stick with the plan and keep with developing we've gone for high profile managers with potential signings. I just can't think of many players who have improved under Jose and Conte while Nuno didn't last long enough to judge. The manager just doesn't fit our transfer policy until we get someone who plays and develops a young squad. The baffling thing is how we went away from that after having such success under Poch.

 

[Wiener]

Yes indeed, and many remarked at the time, look at Spurs, terrible on the pitch but still one of the richest clubs in the country.

Sugar was an ignorant clown and his time at the club an unmitigated disaster. So it's an incredibly low bar to use to judge #COYS Daniel and ENIC. It's like saying, yeah Dier is flawed but remember we once used to have Nethercott at CB so be grateful for Dier (rather than comparing him to Mike England or Ledley King etc you get the picture)

ENIC have lucked out to own one of the biggest and richest football assets during a period that has seen an incredible explosion of money coming into the EPL. There have been undoubted improvements to the finances of the club. No denial that is welcome, But we absolutely should be comparing ENIC's performance relative to the other "Big 5" clubs in English football when they took over., and aside from Everton, that comparison isn't a favourable one.

Of course the big similarity between Sugar and ENIC is that they didn't want to own THFC to pursue football glory, they both saw/see owning a top football club as helping grow their other business ventures. That has been the true tragedy, the root cause of the decline in THFC as a big, trophy winning football club.

Everton is very good example of where we might be had Sugar continued to run the club to this day. Aston Villa would also be a reasonable comparison.

The only other comparisons should be with Man U, Liverpool and Arsenal. All three of these clubs were in significantly better footballing and financial situations than us. We have narrowed the gap since then with a lower wage bill.

Chelsea, Man City and now perhaps Newcastle are built on financial models which are not as sustainable nor are they in my view ethical.

The "root cause" lies in Irving Scholar's short-lived, risky and failed growth strategy followed by a decade of failed management by Sugar. Even before that we had been relegated.

An interesting counter-factual would be to consider what might have happened had Scholar implemented his plan after the 1992 Black Wednesday Currency Crisis and the recession which followed it.

 

[Mattspur]

Anytime anyone wants to criticize Levy if you can just go through the right channels and have Mattspur approve if it acceptable, he's totally neutral and will let you know what's measured and factual...

No need to run it by me. We're all grownups and should be able to work out for ourselves what's measured.

 

[Mattspur]

And don't forget to include bank statements proving you are a CEO of a billion-pound company, otherwise I'm afraid your opinion is invalid

Hyperbole

 

[Metalhead]

It just the “hyperbole”, although I wouldn’t call it that as I believe the statements these people make are made to be taken seriously.

I’ve got no problem with criticism of Levy as long as it’s measured and factual.

What would be your biggest frustration? I know that obviously it's easy to criticise when it's not a position that any of us are in but putting that aside, what would you do differently, either in a specific or general way to the way that Daniel has been performing over the last few seasons?

 

[Wearegoingtowintheleague]

No need to run it by me. We're all grownups and should be able to work out for ourselves what's measured.

This is clearly not measured nor factual, there's no way you can class SC as all grownups.

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

I think our vision over the years has been to sign young potential and develop them. We're not going to spend on world class players so the plan is to invest in future prospects and develop them into world class. We would look to get a modern day manager with new ideas and tactics to work with the state of the art training facilities.

I think that has been our vision for a long time. Pretty much going back to when we brought in Arnesen with Jol as the successor to Santini. We then turned to Ramos who was another modern day manager with high stock at the time. I think the plan was always to keep on that track. However things turned bad under Ramos so we changed course and went with a less risky Redknapp who had experience digging teams out of a hole in this country. It too risky to bring a new coach in our position.

Our time under Redknapp probably lasted longer than the board anticipated. He did better than expected and got the best out of the young players like Bale and Modric. Once things started to turn we turned back to our original plan and went for the young AVB. Another modern day coach who we felt could develop players and make the most of our training facilities.

When things went bad again we remained on course and got another modern day coach in Pochettino. We hit the jackpot really with him and got the most out of the young talent we had. However the conveyor belt stopped for a while and we signed no new young talent for him to develop. The squad suffered and it ended again.

This is where we lost track of our vision. I'm not sure if it's because we were in our new stadium and felt we could take a different approach. Whatever the thinking we got an old school manager in Jose with a history of working with world class players and winning with them. Yet we didn't and were never prepared to go sign those world class players. We continued on course with our philosophy to sign more young prospects. Only with the exception of an older Bale to try and satisfy the need for elite players.

When things turned bad we had no clue what we wanted. We seemed to flirt with the idea of going for someone like Ten Hag who would have fit perfect with our plan to develop a young squad. For some reason he didn't seem high profile enough after Jose. Are they thinking with the new stadium they need a big name to attract sponsors etc? I have no idea what they're thinking now. They ended up desperate and getting Nuno who also didn't fit the plan.

After a few months we turn to Conte who is yet another Jose. We did the same, signed young players as before and got one old generation player in Perisic. It was another appointment that didn't fit our plan. It's been a crazy few years where the club have lost focus on what their plan is. You simply don't get Jose or Conte if you have no intention to be bold in the window and sign top players.

To suggest things have gone to plan is plain wrong. They have bounced up and down. From modern day to old school manager. From having a DOF to not having one at all. Not to say things always should go to plan but we completely moved away from the plan. Like having Jol under Arnesen made sense, having AVB and Ramos made sense because they fit a similar thought. It just didn't work with AVB and Ramos but that happens. Getting Poch with Mitchell made sense too. They all fit the vision. Getting Redknapp, Jose and Conte are not the same plan and only 1 worked out.

We should have learned from Jose and gone straight back to a man manager who develops. I think about a player like Sess for example who has been disappointing. Yet he has never got to work under someone like Pochettino here. I think sticking with the same policy to sign young players and getting managers who need experienced 'been there and won in it' players is where we got it wrong. That's why it's taken so long because of the mistakes over the years and losing sight of the plan. The fact the same mistakes have been made for the last 3 years is the big concern.

I do feel since we moved to the stadium we're lost as to what we want now. Rather than stick with the plan and keep with developing we've gone for high profile managers with potential signings. I just can't think of many players who have improved under Jose and Conte while Nuno didn't last long enough to judge. The manager just doesn't fit our transfer policy until we get someone who plays and develops a young squad. The baffling thing is how we went away from that after having such success under Poch.

Very balanced and well reasoned post

 

[Mattspur]

What would be your biggest frustration? I know that obviously it's easy to criticise when it's not a position that any of us are in but putting that aside, what would you do differently, either in a specific or general way to the way that Daniel has been performing over the last few seasons?

My biggest frustration has been watching us under Conte this season . He did a great job last season getting us CL, but this season we never got going. The football has been dreadful and in my 19 years of having a season ticket I've never enjoyed going to games less than I have now.

Some things I would have done differently:

1. I would both lower ticket prices and include home cup and european games in the price, like we used to.

2. I would have made sure that the DoF had an ethos which aligned to that of the club so his decisions reflected that.

3. I wouldn't have sold Berbatov on deadline day.

4. I wouldn't have allowed Dembele to leave mid-season without a replacement coming in.

5. I wouldn't have chased glory by appointing Jose and then Conte. I would have appointed a manager who was in it for the long term.

Vote for me!!

 

[Mattspur]

This is clearly not measured nor factual, there's no way you can class SC as all grownups.

This is true, but also irrelevant, as my comment wasn't a criticism of Levy.

 

[Duke of Northumberland]

What would be your biggest frustration? I know that obviously it's easy to criticise when it's not a position that any of us are in but putting that aside, what would you do differently, either in a specific or general way to the way that Daniel has been performing over the last few seasons?

I know you’re not asking me but I think we can all agree the summer of no-spendy and low investment that period has caused problems for us. Although it was the height of NDP overrun, so I can understand the pressures. With hindsight the managerial appointments were all bad but I thought they were good at the time. Same with Fab, which was probably worthwhile even now.

Super League was us being dragged along without being left with the also-rans, which I can also understand.

 

[Spurs4CL]

My biggest frustration has been watching us under Conte this season . He did a great job last season getting us CL, but this season we never got going. The football has been dreadful and in my 19 years of having a season ticket I've never enjoyed going to games less than I have now.

Some things I would have done differently:

1. I would both lower ticket prices and include home cup and european games in the price, like we used to.

2. I would have made sure that the DoF had an ethos which aligned to that of the club so his decisions reflected that.

3. I wouldn't have sold Berbatov on deadline day.

4. I wouldn't have allowed Dembele to leave mid-season without a replacement coming in.

5. I wouldn't have chased glory by appointing Jose and then Conte. I would have appointed a manager who was in it for the long term.

Vote for me!!

Never got going with performances sure, but we had our best ever start to a PL season.

 

[Mattspur]

Never got going with performances sure, but we had our best ever start to a PL season.

Indeed. That is the yin to my yang.

 

[Spurs4CL]

My biggest frustration has been watching us under Conte this season . He did a great job last season getting us CL, but this season we never got going. The football has been dreadful and in my 19 years of having a season ticket I've never enjoyed going to games less than I have now.

Some things I would have done differently:

1. I would both lower ticket prices and include home cup and european games in the price, like we used to.

2. I would have made sure that the DoF had an ethos which aligned to that of the club so his decisions reflected that.

3. I wouldn't have sold Berbatov on deadline day.

4. I wouldn't have allowed Dembele to leave mid-season without a replacement coming in.

5. I wouldn't have chased glory by appointing Jose and then Conte. I would have appointed a manager who was in it for the long term.

Vote for me!!

Agree with point 2, I want us to hoover up the best young talent in the world. Before the stadium we wouldn't have been able to afford them but now there's no reason why we can't invest 30-40mil each on some of the most highly rated youngsters in world football. We need to be like Dortmund but without the intention to sell the players on for profit. I'd love to watch us assemble a great young squad that can grow together and achieve things.