Our transformation (with avb)

[ShelfSide18]

I don't think I said you were up AVB's arse, I said you had your head in your own arses, much more impressive in my book. Only seen it once in Cirque du Soleil at the Royal Albert Hall.

Let me say where I stand on AVB and his time at Tottenham...

I backed his appointment but had my reservations after the Chelsea situation, and also whether he could command the respect of the players, fans and media. In those respects, I think he's exceeded all expectations - he's shown himself to be flexible, pragmatic and adaptable - a criticism that was levelled at him at Chelsea, and he's absolutely won over a lot of public opinion, from fans and media, and his relationship with the players and the spirit and togetherness they show he has got them on his side, pulling in the right direction. This is a big part of his coaching style that people forget when they talk about his tactics, formations, coaching methods etc, its the way he deals with players and staff on a daily basis which is overlooked. It's just as important, if not more so than the technical, tactical stuff - there is always a worry when you hire a coach who treats the game as more of an academic pursuit, all tactics boards and theory that they forget they have to get their ideas across, simply packaged and understand how to get the best out of their players. I was worried about that after the Chelsea experience, but he's dispelled that worry for me now.

Football product wise, yes, at times it's not been as flamboyant and thrilling as we'd all like, but I also think there is a lot of rose tinted romanticism when people look back to Redknapp's reign. I won't speculate what goes on at the training ground as much as I think it's pretty obvious AVB is in a different league to HR in terms of coaching, but on the pitch we've been so much more disciplined, a foundation has been laid and last year it kept us in the race for 4th every bit as much as Bale's run of ludicrous form. It was rarely pretty, but I think desperately needed - the basis to which you can then add the flamboyance.

I remember early last season, we sat deep, looked lethargic and I was quite disheartened - after the Man City away game I wrote a post saying how much better we needed to be, the hope I had in AVB was being tested. But gradually, it started happening - we took the game 30 yards higher up the pitch, we looked like a drilled unit off the ball and we had forged a group mentality, that remarkably for Spurs, didn't know when they were fucking beaten. On the ball, yes, it could be ponderous and when the opposition sat deep it could be hideously painful until Bale speared one in from range. Our movement sometimes was non existent and also I think better use could have been made with players like Carroll and some of the development squad - AVB was cautious and sometimes overly so.

So the next step is the flamboyance, we've brought in the personnel and we now have a solid defensive structure to work from so I do expect to see us move better, pass better and quicker, create better chances and thrill us fans more - and I back AVB to make that happen. The Norwich game evidence was positive in that respect, although obviously not near enough to say we've cracked it yet, but it was encouraging seeing a team come to sit deep, and actually play with a pretty good shape and discipline and still we won at a canter. No brainless bashing at the front door and waiting on a wonder goal, I liked that very much.

This is not to say it can't go tits up, it sometimes does for whatever reason - but I've not felt this confident about Spurs in my life. The players, the coach, the chairman (even the pair of dickheads who sat behind me for 15 years haven't renewed their season ticket, proof that the economic collapse hasn't been entirely bad after all).

I'm a positive Spurs fan, Bear, if my head's up my arse then fine by me.

 

[nicdic]

Not really sure who that was aimed at, but my point being if he wasn't even appointed as head coach at the time of Vertonghen/Sigurdsson and our first interest in Lloris, I'm pretty confident he would have had absolutely no say in the transfers.

Just in general, not you particularly. I think there's an awful lot of mis-information about how transfers are done at the club, and lot's of guesswork on top.

One thing I will level at you though is drawing a link between not choosing the player and not wanting them. The two don't necessarily go hand in hand. Lloris I'm sure he'd have had some say in it. Who knows whether there were conversations before he was officially bought in, or whether perhaps we started looking to buy players for a particular style and were looking for a manager that fitted that too?

 

[Spurs_Bear]

Let me say where I stand on AVB and his time at Tottenham...

I backed his appointment but had my reservations after the Chelsea situation, and also whether he could command the respect of the players, fans and media. In those respects, I think he's exceeded all expectations - he's shown himself to be flexible, pragmatic and adaptable - a criticism that was levelled at him at Chelsea, and he's absolutely won over a lot of public opinion, from fans and media, and his relationship with the players and the spirit and togetherness they show he has got them on his side, pulling in the right direction. This is a big part of his coaching style that people forget when they talk about his tactics, formations, coaching methods etc, its the way he deals with players and staff on a daily basis which is overlooked. It's just as important, if not more so than the technical, tactical stuff - there is always a worry when you hire a coach who treats the game as more of an academic pursuit, all tactics boards and theory that they forget they have to get their ideas across, simply packaged and understand how to get the best out of their players. I was worried about that after the Chelsea experience, but he's

Football product wise, yes, at times it's not been as flamboyant and thrilling as we'd all like, but I also think there is a lot of rose tinted romanticism when people look back to Redknapp's reign. I won't speculate what goes on at the training ground as much as I think it's pretty obvious AVB is in a different league to HR in terms of coaching, but on the pitch we've been so much more disciplined, a foundation has been laid and last year it kept us in the race for 4th every bit as much as Bale's run of ludicrous form. It was rarely pretty, but I think desperately needed - the basis to which you can then add the flamboyance.

I remember early last season, we sat deep, looked lethargic and I was quite disheartened - after the Man City away game I wrote a post saying how much better we needed to be, the hope I had in AVB was being tested. But gradually, it started happening - we took the game 30 yards higher up the pitch, we looked like a drilled unit off the ball and we had forged a group mentality, that remarkably for Spurs, didn't know when they were fucking beaten. On the ball, yes, it could be ponderous and when the opposition sat deep it could be hideously painful until Bale speared one in from range. Our movement sometimes was non existent and also I think better use could have been made with players like Carroll and some of the development squad - AVB was cautious and sometimes overly so.

So the next step is the flamboyance, we've brought in the personnel and we now have a solid defensive structure to work from so I do expect to see us move better, pass better and quicker, create better chances and thrill us fans more - and I back AVB to make that happen. The Norwich game evidence was positive in that respect, although obviously not near enough to say we've cracked it yet, but it was encouraging seeing a team come to sit deep, and actually play with a pretty good shape and discipline and still we won at a canter. No brainless bashing at the front door and waiting on a wonder goal, I liked that very much.

This is not to say it can't go tits up, it sometimes does for whatever reason - but I've not felt this confident about Spurs in my life. The players, the coach, the chairman (even the pair of dickheads who sat behind me for 15 years haven't renewed their season ticket, proof that the economic collapse hasn't been entirely bad after all).

I'm a positive Spurs fan, Bear, if my head's up my arse then fine by me.

So am I SS, I argued the toss with a load of wankers everytime I wanted to come on here and celebrate with what I thought were fans in the season we qualified for the Champions League, only to be told we'd in fact, yet again been shite in the game and the entertaining football was nothing but a lottery blah blah blah.

You can be as positive as you want, but what I'm telling you and BC, and I'm happy to tell you about it, is that a lot of this fabled things you think you are seeing which you have read about, not everyone else is seeing. And there's no harm in that, you're telling me it's great and exciting and we're right where we need to be, I'm telling you it's slow and boring and that passing the ball between the DM and the CB isn't what I pay my money to watch. Again, there's no harm in that either. For one, I try not to mention the previous regime, because I don't see the point, but it seems the few of you who continually harp on about how much better we are now, are doing it to convince yourselves more so than anyone else.

For every point you make about what happened last season, I could counter with the argument, 'Gareth Bale'. You wouldn't agree.

For me, the Norwich game was good, the previous games weren't. We have some cracking players and I'm hoping we turn into a cracking team, if we do, then fair play to AVB, but we've got a fucking long way to go yet. A, fucking, long way.

But as I said, if it happens, I'll gladly come out and say that he deserves the credit he gets, gladly. Do I expect you Continental Pro Licence coaches to come out and say the same if it doesn't work out?

No. Like fuck.

 

[dudu]

I don't know. I don't know all the managers.

But you know DL enough to speak with such certainty on his wants and needs....

 

[Spurs_Bear]

But you know DL enough to speak with such certainty on his wants and needs....

Yes. We're like peas in a pod.

 

[dudu]

Yes. We're like peas in a pod.

thought so......

 

[dudu]

So am I SS, I argued the toss with a load of wankers everytime I wanted to come on here and celebrate with what I thought were fans in the season we qualified for the Champions League, only to be told we'd in fact, yet again been shite in the game and the entertaining football was nothing but a lottery blah blah blah.

You can be as positive as you want, but what I'm telling you and BC, and I'm happy to tell you about it, is that a lot of this fabled things you think you are seeing which you have read about, not everyone else is seeing. And there's no harm in that, you're telling me it's great and exciting and we're right where we need to be, I'm telling you it's slow and boring and that passing the ball between the DM and the CB isn't what I pay my money to watch. Again, there's no harm in that either. For one, I try not to mention the previous regime, because I don't see the point, but it seems the few of you who continually harp on about how much better we are now, are doing it to convince yourselves more so than anyone else.

For every point you make about what happened last season, I could counter with the argument, 'Gareth Bale'. You wouldn't agree.

For me, the Norwich game was good, the previous games weren't. We have some cracking players and I'm hoping we turn into a cracking team, if we do, then fair play to AVB, but we've got a fucking long way to go yet. A, fucking, long way.

But as I said, if it happens, I'll gladly come out and say that he deserves the credit he gets, gladly. Do I expect you Continental Pro Licence coaches to come out and say the same if it doesn't work out?

No. Like fuck.

Firstly - i personally think the first half of Swansea was a good performance and was very similar to our first half of Norwich - the main difference being Erikson played against Norwich and made us look more dynamic. Even more so without a dynamic number 10 playing we still created chances and dominated. Had Little Paul put away one or both of his 10-15 yard chances i think you might have felt like the performance, in that half, was as good as norwich.
I kind of agree with you with regards to not looking back..... there is no point in discussing the past cos its gone and done and largely irrelevant. But then so it talking about the future.....it hasnt happened yet and there is no way anyone knows what is going to happen - so why speculate and hope to be proved right?

Can you break down what a 'long fucking way' is measurable against? is it a period of time? Its a very ambiguous comment to make, and then repeat without actually explain what it means and also what a 'cracking' team consists of.

The way i see it is that we have already come a long fucking way...... 1 goal conceded in 4 games. Whoever that is against in the prem that is impressive and not something a spurs side ive ever watched has managed to achieve very consistently at all. I would say that defensively we are much better at playing the high line now than we were previously - i will admit that our fullbacks need work still and we are yet to have our best CBs play together but last season our full backs were not that better (i love BAE as a personality but he was far from a defender you could rely on consistently) and we conceded a lot of goals early on in the season.

Its a process that takes time. We are lucky to not have too hard a start to the campaign and we have clearly been improving on a game by game basis so far. Even the Arsenal game saw us have more possession than them - now im not saying we played better at all, ium not even saying we deserved anything for it - but it is an impressive stat at their ground. Its is also a testament to the improvement of our midfield and our ability to retain the ball.

I for one am not saying we are close to being as good as we should, but i also dont think we are a fucking long way a very fucking long way-

If you are brave enough maybe you will live like me for a little bit - from game to game rather than getting ready to hold your hands up for being wrong or chastising others for not admitting to being wrong themselves.

The norwich game was good = improvement = happy

you have absolutely no reason to think we wont improve further.

 

[ShelfSide18]

So am I SS, I argued the toss with a load of wankers everytime I wanted to come on here and celebrate with what I thought were fans in the season we qualified for the Champions League, only to be told we'd in fact, yet again been shite in the game and the entertaining football was nothing but a lottery blah blah blah.

You can be as positive as you want, but what I'm telling you and BC, and I'm happy to tell you about it, is that a lot of this fabled things you think you are seeing which you have read about, not everyone else is seeing. And there's no harm in that, you're telling me it's great and exciting and we're right where we need to be, I'm telling you it's slow and boring and that passing the ball between the DM and the CB isn't what I pay my money to watch. Again, there's no harm in that either. For one, I try not to mention the previous regime, because I don't see the point, but it seems the few of you who continually harp on about how much better we are now, are doing it to convince yourselves more so than anyone else.

For every point you make about what happened last season, I could counter with the argument, 'Gareth Bale'. You wouldn't agree.

For me, the Norwich game was good, the previous games weren't. We have some cracking players and I'm hoping we turn into a cracking team, if we do, then fair play to AVB, but we've got a fucking long way to go yet. A, fucking, long way.

But as I said, if it happens, I'll gladly come out and say that he deserves the credit he gets, gladly. Do I expect you Continental Pro Licence coaches to come out and say the same if it doesn't work out?

No. Like fuck.

I think maybe lottery is not the best word to use, maybe 'too much left to chance' is a better phrase. It means you can wallop a load of teams with the individual qualities shining through, but also rock up at Wembley and fall apart against Chelsea 5-1 etc. I think AVB has us more prepared, mentally stronger and more of a team - I haven't actually claimed we're exciting, that for me is the next step and a test for AVB to get going, and I have confidence he will.

It wasn't just Bale last season, as enormous as his contribution was - we learnt a new defensive strategy which set a solid basis and I think perhaps, guesswork here, was a reason we looked stodgy and one paced (losing 2 world class MFs also didn't help). Players were operating under more tactical/positional instruction, and coaching was maybe more geared towards getting shape, pressure and compactness? Mate, I agree that sometimes our football was brainless, boring and almost entirely geared towards getting Bale within 25yards of goal, I moaned about it last year enough - but I did notice a lot that we did, mostly off the ball, and team spirit, concentration and mentality which I fully believe AVB improved markedly.

Not disagreeing we have a long way to go at all, but for me AVB is the man to take us there. If it didn't work out, then I'd hope I would be objective about what happened, it's what I always try to be and of course sometimes I get it wrong, sometimes massively so, and none of us are impervious to prejudice and seeing what we want to see.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

Firstly - i personally think the first half of Swansea was a good performance and was very similar to our first half of Norwich - the main difference being Erikson played against Norwich and made us look more dynamic. Even more so without a dynamic number 10 playing we still created chances and dominated. Had Little Paul put away one or both of his 10-15 yard chances i think you might have felt like the performance, in that half, was as good as norwich.
I kind of agree with you with regards to not looking back..... there is no point in discussing the past cos its gone and done and largely irrelevant. But then so it talking about the future.....it hasnt happened yet and there is no way anyone knows what is going to happen - so why speculate and hope to be proved right?

Can you break down what a 'long fucking way' is measurable against? is it a period of time? Its a very ambiguous comment to make, and then repeat without actually explain what it means and also what a 'cracking' team consists of.

The way i see it is that we have already come a long fucking way...... 1 goal conceded in 4 games. Whoever that is against in the prem that is impressive and not something a spurs side ive ever watched has managed to achieve very consistently at all. I would say that defensively we are much better at playing the high line now than we were previously - i will admit that our fullbacks need work still and we are yet to have our best CBs play together but last season our full backs were not that better (i love BAE as a personality but he was far from a defender you could rely on consistently) and we conceded a lot of goals early on in the season.

Its a process that takes time. We are lucky to not have too hard a start to the campaign and we have clearly been improving on a game by game basis so far. Even the Arsenal game saw us have more possession than them - now im not saying we played better at all, ium not even saying we deserved anything for it - but it is an impressive stat at their ground. Its is also a testament to the improvement of our midfield and our ability to retain the ball.

I for one am not saying we are close to being as good as we should, but i also dont think we are a fucking long way a very fucking long way-

If you are brave enough maybe you will live like me for a little bit - from game to game rather than getting ready to hold your hands up for being wrong or chastising others for not admitting to being wrong themselves.

The norwich game was good = improvement = happy

you have absolutely no reason to think we wont improve further.

Firstly, I don't know what you're talking about with some of the questions you are asking me.

Not once have I said I think we will fail. Not once have I said I 'hope' we will fail.

I also don't understand why I would spend a shed load of money paying to watch the team and 'hope to be proved right'...to be honest I'm not even sure what I'm hoping to be proved right about.

I am living from game to game, hence why I said Norwich was good. If you want, give me your address and I'll pop round on my way home from the Lane tonight and we'll have a cup of Green Tea while I let you know how I thought the game went.

 

[ShelfSide18]

Firstly, I don't know what you're talking about with some of the questions you are asking me.

Not once have I said I think we will fail. Not once have I said I 'hope' we will fail.

I also don't understand why I would spend a shed load of money paying to watch the team and 'hope to be proved right'...to be honest I'm not even sure what I'm hoping to be proved right about.

I am living from game to game, hence why I said Norwich was good. If you want, give me your address and I'll pop round on my way home from the Lane tonight and we'll have a cup of Green Tea while I let you know how I thought the game went.

You drink green tea, knew you were a ****

 

[Spurs_Bear]

I think maybe lottery is not the best word to use, maybe 'too much left to chance' is a better phrase. It means you can wallop a load of teams with the individual qualities shining through, but also rock up at Wembley and fall apart against Chelsea 5-1 etc. I think AVB has us more prepared, mentally stronger and more of a team - I haven't actually claimed we're exciting, that for me is the next step and a test for AVB to get going, and I have confidence he will.

It wasn't just Bale last season, as enormous as his contribution was - we learnt a new defensive strategy which set a solid basis and I think perhaps, guesswork here, was a reason we looked stodgy and one paced (losing 2 world class MFs also didn't help). Players were operating under more tactical/positional instruction, and coaching was maybe more geared towards getting shape, pressure and compactness? Mate, I agree that sometimes our football was brainless, boring and almost entirely geared towards getting Bale within 25yards of goal, I moaned about it last year enough - but I did notice a lot that we did, mostly off the ball, and team spirit, concentration and mentality which I fully believe AVB improved markedly.

Not disagreeing we have a long way to go at all, but for me AVB is the man to take us there. If it didn't work out, then I'd hope I would be objective about what happened, it's what I always try to be and of course sometimes I get it wrong, sometimes massively so, and none of us are impervious to prejudice and seeing what we want to see.

I don't even agree with 'leaving more to chance', I just think it's a derogatory and disrespectful term thrown around by people too bone idle to put their dislike of a bloke to one side.

For me we left a lot more to chance last season when we were begging Bale to bang one in from 30 yards in the last 5 minutes, but that of course now turns into our gameplan, where as before it was luck? No way.

AVB sets us up to be more compact, yet by doing so we lose an attacking threat, and we still had results where we lost at home to Fulham 1-0 towards the end of the season, and still conceded more goals than we did the season before.

I hope AVB is the man to take us there too, but I will react to having it rammed down my throat every week by those who claim it's a kind of science and the rest of us 'fuckwits who cant see the wood from the trees' ( (c) Beecie) are watching the game with shit in our eyes, when it's just as clear that things are not as cut and dried as they seem. You're not the main culprit, obviously, we know who wears those stripes.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

You drink green tea, knew you were a ****

Indeed, but I am a slim and anti-oxidized ****...

 

[dudu]

Firstly, I don't know what you're talking about with some of the questions you are asking me.

Not once have I said I think we will fail. Not once have I said I 'hope' we will fail.

I also don't understand why I would spend a shed load of money paying to watch the team and 'hope to be proved right'...to be honest I'm not even sure what I'm hoping to be proved right about.

I am living from game to game, hence why I said Norwich was good. If you want, give me your address and I'll pop round on my way home from the Lane tonight and we'll have a cup of Green Tea while I let you know how I thought the game went.

That would be awesome dude.... ive never had green tea with a bear before

But seriously, my questions were simple

you said 'we have a very long fucking way to go' i just wanted you to elaborate on that

you also said youre hoping we turn into a cracking team - i just wanted you to elaborate on what youre idea of a cracking team is - perhaps it will answer the previous question of what 'a very long fucking way to go means'

also i was purely basing my comments on yours. The way you structure your sentences is 'positive followed by negative' Norwich was good - the rest was shit - we have cracking players - they have avery long fucking way to go.

Im not saying the essence of what you're saying is wrong but the way you put it across is extremely negative and doesnt imply at all that you are very hopeful of anything at all.

Just my opinion.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

That would be awesome dude.... ive never had green tea with a bear before

But seriously, my questions were simple

you said 'we have a very long fucking way to go' i just wanted you to elaborate on that

you also said youre hoping we turn into a cracking team - i just wanted you to elaborate on what youre idea of a cracking team is - perhaps it will answer the previous question of what 'a very long fucking way to go means'

also i was purely basing my comments on yours. The way you structure your sentences is 'positive followed by negative' Norwich was good - the rest was shit - we have cracking players - they have avery long fucking way to go.

Im not saying the essence of what you're saying is wrong but the way you put it across is extremely negative and doesnt imply at all that you are very hopeful of anything at all.

Just my opinion.

So because you read it the way you did, it means I want us to fail.

Your opinion is wrong. I don't.

I can't believe I'm having this conversation.

Need a stiff Green Tea.

 

[dudu]

So because you read it the way you did, it means I want us to fail.

Your opinion is wrong. I don't.

I can't believe I'm having this conversation.

Need a stiff Green Tea.

i read it exactly the way you wrote it and didnt read into anything


i also never said i think you want us to fail - i said you come accross as focusing on the negatives more than the positive.

you remind me a little of my ex girlfriend.....

 

[ShelfSide18]

I don't even agree with 'leaving more to chance', I just think it's a derogatory and disrespectful term thrown around by people too bone idle to put their dislike of a bloke to one side.

For me we left a lot more to chance last season when we were begging Bale to bang one in from 30 yards in the last 5 minutes, but that of course now turns into our gameplan, where as before it was luck? No way.

AVB sets us up to be more compact, yet by doing so we lose an attacking threat, and we still had results where we lost at home to Fulham 1-0 towards the end of the season, and still conceded more goals than we did the season before.

I hope AVB is the man to take us there too, but I will react to having it rammed down my throat every week by those who claim it's a kind of science and the rest of us 'fuckwits who cant see the wood from the trees' ( (c) Beecie) are watching the game with shit in our eyes, when it's just as clear that things are not as cut and dried as they seem. You're not the main culprit, obviously, we know who wears those stripes.

Well let's face it that man was happy to be disrespectful to us Spurs fans on occasion. I often pointed out what I thought Redknapp had done well, and have some very happy memories from the years he was with us - but there was loads of stuff that infuriated me too, and think AVB has improved upon - I'm not going to go over it again, you know my thoughts and I don't think either of us is likely to drop what we've been saying and agree with the other.

As for BC, I won't speak for him he's big enough and probably ugly enough to answer to that himself - although I will happily I admit we tend to read off the same page when it comes to Redders and AVB, although BC has his certain way with words at times...

One question then SB, bollocks on the penalty spot for me... who would you rather be in charge of this team right now, Redknapp or AVB?

 

[Spurs_Bear]

i read it exactly the way you wrote it and didnt read into anything


i also never said i think you want us to fail - i said you come accross as focusing on the negatives more than the positive.

you remind me a little of my ex girlfriend.....

I am your ex girlfriend.

 

[dudu]

I am your ex girlfriend.

That explains why you deflected from answering the questions i asked by saying something like 'i cant believe im having this conversation'

this is all too strange.

i still love you/.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

Well let's face it that man was happy to be disrespectful to us Spurs fans on occasion. I often pointed out what I thought Redknapp had done well, and have some very happy memories from the years he was with us - but there was loads of stuff that infuriated me too, and think AVB has improved upon - I'm not going to go over it again, you know my thoughts and I don't think either of us is likely to drop what we've been saying and agree with the other.

As for BC, I won't speak for him he's big enough and probably ugly enough to answer to that himself - although I will happily I admit we tend to read off the same page when it comes to Redders and AVB, although BC has his certain way with words at times...

One question then SB, bollocks on the penalty spot for me... who would you rather be in charge of this team right now, Redknapp or AVB?

I'm glad that Redknapp isn't in charge of this team, and I'm glad that AVB wasn't in charge of Redknapp's team.

Could Redknapp win the league with this team? No.

Could AVB finish 4th with the team Redknapp had in 09/10? No.

This is where you and BC fall down, everything has to revert back to Redknapp. Fuck him, let him go. I'm talking about the here and now with AVB.

 

[dudu]

I'm glad that Redknapp isn't in charge of this team, and I'm glad that AVB wasn't in charge of Redknapp's team.

Could Redknapp win the league with this team? No.

Could AVB finish 4th with the team Redknapp had in 09/10? No.

This is where you and BC fall down, everything has to revert back to Redknapp. Fuck him, let him go. I'm talking about the here and now with AVB.

I agree with everything you say here except that i would let HR go before i fucked him - he just aint my type.