Our changing blueprint

[Disconosebleed]

You could make a reasonable argument that our best bang-per-buck signings of recent years were made by Jol and Levy in the interlude between Arnesen and Comolli—Lee, Tainio, Salty and Davids, all for £1.3m (plus Ed's wages).

Fair point, but if you want to get where we want to get, 'bang-per-buck' isn't what you need - you just need the 'bang'. Ignoring Davids, who was theoretically a huge signing and did a great job for us for much of his time at the club, the other three were good value, but if we want to be a top side then cheap and cheerful signings like Teemu, Lee and Salty aren't what we need.

By all means sign that type of player as squad players to give the side a bit of depth, but ultimately you have to speculate to accumulate - as good as Stalteri was (and I realise there's a big question mark against my argument, considering all three were major players in our most successful league campaign in years), if you want to get a top four spot then 8m on an already good and potentially excellent player like Hutton is a better spend than Salty on a free. Similarly signing a 20m man like Veloso would be more use to us than Tainio on a Bosman.

I do see what you're saying though - the value of those signings freed up money for bigger names that we might not otherwise have been able to afford...but my point stands, at the highest end (which, presumably, is where we aim to be) you can't worry too much about getting value for money, other than to the extent that you'd expect a 20m striker to score you 20 league goals in a season.

 

[Disconosebleed]

However, they've more than repaid what we shelled out for them, and we'll turn a profit. (And yes, I'm sure they'd been identified by Arnesen).

I can see why Ramos would pick Zokora over TT, but there's very little in it for me. As for Poulsen, I've seen very little Spanish football this season, but I caught Sevilla v. Almeria last week and saw Sevilla fell apart after Jiminez' bizarre decision to sub Poulsen at half-time. What a good side Almeria are, BTW.

If we can put out our best XI we can compete with anyone. The problem has been that it doesn't seem to take too much to weaken us quite considerably, and that's been evident over the past three seasons. This is why last summer's signings were largely inexplicable to me. It wouldn't come as a massive surprise to me if all of them except Bale were moved on this summer, either.

Agree on most points - Poulsen, to me, is a world class player who isn't recognised as such simply because he's not at a club where he can prove it. Put him in United or Chelsea's team and he'd be considered world class the same way Essien, Sneijder and the like had to move to show people how good they really were.

Have to disagree that we can compete with anyone with our best eleven out there. If things go our way then of course we can compete - but us at our best playing against United at their best, we would lose comfortably. We have to be playing exceptionally well and hope that the opposition underperform to get results against top teams. Dodgy keeper, excellent defence, woefully inadequate midfield and superb strikers would be my summation of the side.

The thing is, I think we need to make only a couple of signings to go from average to very good indeed. It's been galling to see the likes of Everton, Villa and Pompy overtake us this season, but personally I think that those three in particular have an upper limit to their capabilities without major signings.

Everton might have finished fifth, but in order to truly challenge the top four I think they'd need at least five new signings - a keeper, a right back, a left back, a defensive midfielder and probably another striker. Villa and Pompy would need even greater overhauls. Whereas, for me, we only really need a keeper and one or possibly two intelligent midfielders. Our defensive record is, of course, terrible - but our defenders are good.

A back line of King, Woodgate, Hutton and Bale or Gilberto is good enough for a CL side, in my opinion. Behind that we need a better keeper, but more importantly in front of that we need...ANYTHING. Our centre mids, and I include Jenas in this despite him having a decent season...they don't give us nearly enough at either end of the pitch. They don't create enough, and more importantly they don't give nearly enough protection to the back four, leaving us outnumbered at the back very often. A quality, intelligent defensive-minded midfielder would improve our side immeasurably.

Given that we've now signed Modric, presumably for a left-sided role rather than a central role, my ideal scenario would be for us to sign two defensive midfielders - not Makelele-type characters who get the shakes when they get close enough to goal to make out which opposition defender is which, but intelligent ball-playing midfielders who can sense danger and snuff it out. One or two of them (ideally two, but one genuinely top-class player to do that work alongside Jenas' energy would be a good compromise) in front of the defence would improve our defensive record hugely IMO. As poor as we've been this season, we don't need a big overhaul to become the side we want to be. A couple of big signings is all we need.

And finally, I agree on last summer's signings. I don't think Bent will go and Bale certainly won't, but the rest wouldn't surprise me.

 

[SpurSince57]

They were highly instrumental in getting us to a position where we could attract big names, is what I suppose I'm saying, experienced pros who'd all played in European competition. Stop-gaps if you like, but what worries me is that we haven't really improved to the degree I'd hoped.

Well, we can certainly give anyone a game, if not beat them. All our encounters with the Cartel members this season have been pretty close, and most of them could have gone either way.

 

[Coyboy]

They were highly instrumental in getting us to a position where we could attract big names, is what I suppose I'm saying, experienced pros who'd all played in European competition. Stop-gaps if you like, but what worries me is that we haven't really improved to the degree I'd hoped.

Well, we can certainly give anyone a game, if not beat them. All our encounters with the Cartel members this season have been pretty close, and most of them could have gone either way.

You are wrong there, the semi could not have gone either way. We hammered those fuckers!!!

 

[SpurSince57]

Most true! :grin:

 

[Dinpomp]

Cheers all,

Not sure where to post this, but this is an interview with former Croatian International Ivan Leko who played under Ramos at Malaga:

Ivan Leko: Modric is lucky, Juande is even better than Mourinho!

Former Croatian International and current member of Belgium's Club Brugge, Ivan Leko (30) played under Juande Ramos during his time at Malaga. Leko claims that he never had a better manager in his career and that Modric will only improve under his wing.

"In a short time he will certainly be 30-40% better!", said Leko.

"I'm very happy that he came to Ramos, it's the best thing that could have happened to him."

"Under Ramos I was content even when I wasn't playing. With him there is no bullshitting, he respectfully and openly tells you: "You're not playing because you're lacking in this and that...". The first three months I didn't play, but then when I broke into the team, I never fell out of it again. He made me a better player and we had a fantastic understanding."

Leko talks about Juande's specific preparations for games.

"Every opponent gets analyzes to the smallest detail. Already on Tuesday he starts preparing the team for Saturday's match, he immediately points out their weaknesses and the trainings get based on those. There isn't a better manager, not even the celebrated Mourinho is his equal!"

His first season at Tottenham hasn't really been a success?

"It hasn't, because he wasn't the one who selected the team. This summer when he brings in the players of his liking, Tottenham will go to the top of English football", concluded Leko.

 

[Coyboy]

Interesting but I remember when Sheva said Rebrov would score thirty goals and we would win the league.

 

[yanno]

Agree on most points - Poulsen, to me, is a world class player who isn't recognised as such simply because he's not at a club where he can prove it. Put him in United or Chelsea's team and he'd be considered world class the same way Essien, Sneijder and the like had to move to show people how good they really were.

Disconosebleed - I agree with a lot of the comments in your post, for instance about it being our midfield that's our weakest area. We have CL quality in defence & attack, but not in midfield. However, I do disagree a little about Poulsen being world class. Essien has more to his game, and Sneijder is a totally different type of player.

I must have watched Poulsen around 20 times on Sky, and once in the flesh at WHL. When Ramos joined, I even stated that I thought Juande would be likely to make Poulsen his first Spurs signing if the rumoured release clause existed. I think he's an outstanding team player, who breaks up opposition attacks, gives it simply, and has the intelligence to move across and cover when teammates with more flair (eg FBs like Alves) bomb forward leaving the team exposed. But he is an ordinary passer of the ball, and pretty slow.

I would say Poulsen is a very good team player who provides the glue, the defensive cover, to enable flair players to do their stuff. He also plays very much to his limitations: he knows his job and sticks to it rigidly. I can see why he was one of Ramos' untouchables at Sevilla (along with Alves, Navarro & Kanoute). I'm just not sure I'd call him world class.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

You could make a reasonable argument that our best bang-per-buck signings of recent years were made by Jol and Levy in the interlude between Arnesen and Comolli—Lee, Tainio, Salty and Davids, all for £1.3m (plus Ed's wages).

The groundwork for every one of those signings was laid by Arnesen. Arnesen wrote Lee's contract and knew his get out clause (a fact which pissed PSV to the max). I'm positiv Arnesen actually signed Tainio because I remember him explaing how he'd tried to sign him for PSV and Tainio had told him he was a spurs fan. And I'm positive that arnesen had sourced Salty too and was around when the pre-contract was signed (ie I think the deal for salty was done in Jan with him joining in June). Davids again had rumbled from a year or two previous. Davids said so himself. I don't think it was much to do with any of our board/manager singularly just a collective realisation that he wanted to come and would be spot on. And Jol seemed least comfortable with Davids around didn't he.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

In fact both Stalteri and Tainio had already agreed to join us before Frank left, and we had been chasing Super Ed for what felt like decades.

Fuck, I wish I'd read this before making the above post.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I am sure all clubs have a policy of signing the best players they can attract at a price they can afford. But I still think there have been changes of emphasis in buying policy.

Under Arnesen there was a very clearly laid out blueprint. From choice we would we buy British, if we could not find what we were looking for we would then consider foreign players already playing in the EPL, only if we struck out there would we look at players from overseas leagues. We also had two quite separate recruitment streams, those expected to go straight into the first team and ones for the future to be nurtured through the development squad and by loans. Occasionally ones for the future, such as Dawson or Lennon serendipitously exceeded expectations and were called up to the first team sooner than expected, but that was on merit. The path followed by Calum Davenport or Tom Huddlestone was much more the intended model.

Where the policy changed under Comolli, whose expertise after all lay in European youth football, was that less emphasis was placed on British nationality and EPL experience, and the two transfer streams became blurred, so that youngsters signed from outside the EPL were thrown straight into the first team squad. When Comolli recruited Adel Taarabt, an explicit promise was made that he would be involved with the first team, something which Lens had told him he was not ready for. I cannot imagine a deal being struck on those terms under Arnesen.

I'm sorry EB but you are just wrong. You really think that Arnesen's field of expertise was the English young player market ? Arnesen was famous for having the best scouting/contacts in world football (or so the hype went) in particular south america where he had been involved in bringing in people like Ronaldo.

Whilst the club have always stated that young english talent is high on the wish list the whole point of Arnesen was to exploit foreign markets the Arsenal (and other succesfull clubs around europe) were doing.

The one point you have slightly stumbled into (I say that as I don't think it was quite how you meant it) is that we are now at the stage where it will be even harder for any young player to replace the quality of footballer we now have, especially the likes of Berbatov, Modric, Hutton, Wodgate, King etc. But that is the evoloutionary path we are on (hopefully). It is inevitable that if you keep improving and the quality of player you have increases that will be the case. But I don't think for a minute w will stop recruiting the Lennon's and Huddlestones and Berchiche's (did I spell it right Yanno).

 

[eddiebailey]

I'm sorry EB but you are just wrong. You really think that Arnesen's field of expertise was the English young player market ?

No of course not, and the intention was always to exploit his contacts in world football. But he was also recruited for his strategic vision. That was what was lost sight of after he left.

The one point you have slightly stumbled into (I say that as I don't think it was quite how you meant it) is that we are now at the stage where it will be even harder for any young player to replace the quality of footballer we now have, especially the likes of Berbatov, Modric, Hutton, Wodgate, King etc.

Yes, it is a shame the club did not recognise this last summer when he blew our first team budget on a bunch of kids.

But I don't think for a minute w will stop recruiting the Lennon's and Huddlestones and Berchiche's (did I spell it right Yanno).

I think I have made it quite clear that I agree with that. My issue is around the distinction between players for now and players for the future. Tom Huddlestone and Aaron Lennon were not recruited as first team players, the likes of Assou-Ekottu and Kaboul were. Huddlestone had to be bloody patient to get his chance. Lennon was not even a definite starter for the preseason friendly against Stevo, but he got his lucky break and he took it.

 

[There's always next year]

With all these assessments and assumptions, next season is absolutley massive. We have to find the right ingredients for instant success. To clarify sucess, top 4 is a minimum requirement. Levy, Comolli and Ramos will work their socks off during the close season to recruit top quality proven stars. They will also have to work bloody hard to move on the players identified as surplus to requirement. Levy wants CL qualification to raise the value of the club, so that he can sell for more money and CL makes it a more attractive proposition for new investors. He will IMO, be brave this year in terms of transfers. I think this has been demonstrated with Modric deal. I also believe he will sanction big money for one maybe two big name signings. Once the squad is assembled, Levy will insist that Ramo's repays his massive salary with CL qualification. This is Levy's, Comolli's and Ramos's sole objective next year. Failure to deliver will probably see all three depart in different ways.

 

[SpurSince57]

Ah, but Mr Levy has said that if we don't get a top four spot it will not be failure.

 

[stemark44]

I think the main reason we signed the players we did last summer was because they were the only players that we could get.
I genuinely think we had a long list of targets - a few of them big stars - unfortunately we were not an attractive enough proposition for them because they did'nt rate our unknown manager!
What happened ? We ended up paying top dollar for a couple of fairly average young players – Kaboul,Taraabt and Boateng!
I think Comolli went to Levy and told him that his job was becoming impossible because of our managers lack of stature and PLAN B was put in place.Get rid of Jol and get in a manager with a fantastic reputation throughout Europe because he will attract a better class of player!
I am not a great fan of Comolli but I must admit that so far PLAN B seems to be working!

 

[SpurSince57]

I'm sure they were not.

Sorry, but that's totally fucking ludicrous. We spend £40m because of the manager's perceived lack of stature (which didn't prevent us from signing Berbatov)? Our manager was unknown because of two fifth places in one of the two toughest leagues in Europe—not to mention three great cup runs? :rofl: Fuck me, what are you on?

Ramos does, undeniably, have more pulling-power than Jol. That doesn't save your post from being one of the dumbest of the year (although Double0's apparently serious suggestion that we could ground-share with the Orient sweeps the board).

 

[Blotto]

I think the main reason we signed the players we did last summer was because they were the only players that we could get.
I genuinely think we had a long list of targets - a few of them big stars - unfortunately we were not an attractive enough proposition for them because they did'nt rate our unknown manager!
What happened ? We ended up paying top dollar for a couple of fairly average young players – Kaboul,Taraabt and Boateng!
I think Comolli went to Levy and told him that his job was becoming impossible because of our managers lack of stature and PLAN B was put in place.Get rid of Jol and get in a manager with a fantastic reputation throughout Europe because he will attract a better class of player!
I am not a great fan of Comolli but I must admit that so far PLAN B seems to be working!

How doe we know they're average? We've barely seen them play, nor have they had any time to develop at the club. Should they go on the market, I think that all three of them will have no shortage of takers.

 

[stemark44]

I'm sure they were not.

Sorry, but that's totally fucking ludicrous. We spend £40m because of the manager's perceived lack of stature (which didn't prevent us from signing Berbatov)? Our manager was unknown because of two fifth places in one of the two toughest leagues in Europe—not to mention three great cup runs? :rofl: Fuck me, what are you on?

Ramos does, undeniably, have more pulling-power than Jol. That doesn't save your post from being one of the dumbest of the year (although Double0's apparently serious suggestion that we could ground-share with the Orient sweeps the board).

Fifth places in the league and a couple of cup runs means fuck all in the football world - IT'S WINNING THAT MATTERS !
I did'nt mention £40 million,I mentioned Kaboul at £8.5 million,Taraabt at £3 million and Boateng at £5.4 million!
I know you would love to **** over Jol's face but at the end of the day - who lost their job because of the quality of our signings?
Come on - who was it DUMBO?

 

[jimmy-jojo]

I'm sure they were not.

Sorry, but that's totally fucking ludicrous. We spend £40m because of the manager's perceived lack of stature (which didn't prevent us from signing Berbatov)? Our manager was unknown because of two fifth places in one of the two toughest leagues in Europe—not to mention three great cup runs? :rofl: Fuck me, what are you on?

Ramos does, undeniably, have more pulling-power than Jol. That doesn't save your post from being one of the dumbest of the year (although Double0's apparently serious suggestion that we could ground-share with the Orient sweeps the board).

I'm not too sure why spending £40m is an indicator of a manager's stature within the footballing world. Any idiot (not that Jol is an idiot) can spend £40m. Look at Curbishley...

I don't think two 5th place spots would turn people's heads...at the top of your head can you name the managers who finished 5th in La Liga and Serie A in the past two seasons? I know I can't! No cheating. ;-)

Jol's achievements were great, but I hazard a guess what would stick out in a lot of foreigner's minds is the fact despite our 'good' cup runs we managed to lose high profile matches when in great positions to win. The last impressions most would have of Jol from last season is throwing away 2 goal leads and the kamikaze start we endured against Sevilla in the UEFA Cup.

 

[SpurSince57]

Fifth places in the league and a couple of cup runs means fuck all in the football world - IT'S WINNING THAT MATTERS !
I did'nt mention £40 million,I mentioned Kaboul at £8.5 million,Taraabt at £3 million and Boateng at £5.4 million!
I know you would love to wank over Jol's face but at the end of the day - who lost their job because of the quality of our signings?
Come on - who was it DUMBO?

Hey, here's my usual tip for those halfway through their intensive study course to qualify as a Savoy cabbage. Next time you take on a carrot at noughts and crosses, hold the pencil with the pointy end down. It sometimes helps. In your case, I doubt it would, but it's worth a whirl.

Just how fucking thick are you? You didn't mention £40m, you mentioned Kaboul at £8.5 million, Taraabt (spell his name right, FFS) at £3 million and Boateng at £5.4 million. And you forgot Bale and Bent, yeah? We spent £40m last summer. Try using your calculator if you can't cope with basic mental arithmetic that shouldn't be beyond the compass of the average seven-year-old. You do know how to switch on a calculator, don't you?

Has the name Comolli crossed your vacant excuse for a mind? Or Levy? Do you have the first fucking clue about anything?

It would seem that you don't.