Our changing blueprint

[SpurSince57]

The problem with Plan C is that we tried to duplicate Arsenal's system overnight.

Wenger started off with an extremely strong squad that had slightly under-achieved, including arguably the best back four the EPL has ever seen in front of one of its best-ever keepers. Rioch had already signed Bergkamp, and Wenger proceeded to blend in more foreign talent. Unlike Hoddle's Dad's Army, all of these players had several seasons at the top level left in them, which gave him ample leeway to bring on youngsters, have them understudy established players, and then introduce into the first team squad when they were ready. He hasn't been 100% successful in this, but he's done pretty damned well.

 

[double0]

The bottom line-for the development of the club is to spend money and lots of it. As texturally illustrated above, THFC have implemented multiple strategies to reach that holy grail and all have fallen short either through sabotage, lack of judgment-too much emphasis on youth and little patience for them to blossom. The model that is left is elementary-if you can't beat them join them (spend big time on the best).

The ideology is very clear and all the top clubs in all the major leagues follow this strategy without fear or judgment.

Man Utd, Real Madrid, Barcelona, B Munich, Ac Milan, Juventus, Inter Milan all spend big and are the names mainly left when the trophies are handed out.

 

[eddiebailey]

The model that is left is elementary-if you can't beat them join them (spend big time on the best).

Quite, and that is the route we now seem intent on going down, but some things are above price, and for a footballer that includes a Champions League medal. Until we can offer the prospect of that the best won't come. So we end up breaking the bank to sign players too old, too young or too crocked to make the starting line-up at a Champions League club. It is a policy that can work, but making it work is going to take more than money.

 

[SpurSince57]

The bottom line-for the development of the club is to spend money and lots of it. As texturally illustrated above, THFC have implemented multiple strategies to reach that holy grail and all have fallen short either through sabotage, lack of judgment-too much emphasis on youth and little patience for them to blossom. The model that is left is elementary-if you can't beat them join them (spend big time on the best).

The ideology is very clear and all the top clubs in all the major leagues follow this strategy without fear or judgment.

Man Utd, Real Madrid, Barcelona, B Munich, Ac Milan, Juventus, Inter Milan all spend big and are the names mainly left when the trophies are handed out.

?????

To which trophies are you referring?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

EB
There's some truths but also some vast over simplifications in there. I think the biggest change in strategy was the post Hoddle one. This is where Levy took time to analyse and evaluate a way forward. A complete model that would see us move forward year on year in a sustainable way. From that point on with the appoitment of a DOF and a strategy of procuring the best possible talent of various ages with an (here comes that phrase) inherent value bias and wherever possible adding the odd player outside the general remit who was deemed to be of a certain quality that would fit requirements. I don't think that policy has completely changed but been slightly modified progressively due to various factors. The success of this policy both fiscally and on the pitch has seen revenues grow and profits increase massively. Even so, only woodgate, of the recent acquisitions (summer/Jan) was purchased outside the normal inherent value guide lines (and you ask would a champions league club have risked buying him - Real Madrid and Newcastle both did, Real when he was already injured). I've always maintained - as you make reference to - that the club have often pursued players outside this remit of top drawer CL quality but the reasons we all know couldn't be persuaded to join us. We were prepared by all accounts to pay big money for Nani and Anderson last summer, did pay big money for Bent (ludicrously) and this was all before Ramos arrived. I don't think the signings we are making now are as down to Ramos (in terms of amount) as people think. I think they are a result of various factors including natural progression of the plan, increased revenue, an awareness that the only type of player that will improve an already very good squad is of a certain standard. I honestly don't think the Arnesen and Commoli era's were two different policies just a very smooth progression of the same strategy. Players like Jenas, Berbatov, Chimbonda, Zokora, Bent (Commoli era) were not young hopeful prospects they were ready to roll first teamers (well apart from Bent but you know what I mean). Which proves that our policy under Commoli wasn't just about developing young talent (but the arsenal model is relevant and runing in tandem I think).

 

[SpurSince57]

But the Arsenal model isn't running in tandem. That's the problem. We haven't had the rock-solid basis for that in years. Compare Lennon and Wallmart. We were taking the piss a season, two seasons ago, but who's developed more?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I think that's a bit harsh. We were starting years behind Wenger's Arsenal sytem. Wenger also has the benefit of the african connection not to mention the same kind of kudos that attracts senior players helps attracts the best youngsters.

I think Lennon has had a pretty good season. But then I've always had a pretty realistic view of that type of winger. They is what they is. I great comparison is the semi-final second leg. For want of something beter to do after a couple glasses of vino the other night I watched it again, Lennon was outstanding. His through ball for Keane's goal was probably the best pass I've seen this season. There are times when he can't win. If he takes someone on and looses out people groan. Remember how people used to question Giggs final ball. At 20 I'm happy to have a player like Lennon in our squad. (for what it's worth I think Walcot doing OK too but he did cost 10 times what Lennon cost)

 

[eddiebailey]

B-C

I won't reply in detail, as I know we are not going to agree. In particular we could argue about what players were recruited under what era - I do not see Jenas and Berbatov as Comolli signings. But I agree that Levy has always been ready to push the boat out for sexy, prestige signings, as was Sugar before him. Tottenham would not be Tottenham without delusions of grandeur. Under Ramos however it seems we will see such signings as the focus of transfer activity rather than special treats.

I do think there was a shift in approach between the Arnesen and Comolli eras: there was less emphasis on buying British and less recognition of the mental toughness that solid journeymen brought to the team. The latter in particular is important as the source of the rift between Jol and Comolli. I am sure that under Ramos we will continue to invest in 'ones for the future', as we have since Pleat was given his own transfer kitty back in the days of Graham, but I think we will see and end to the practice of bringing in raw youngsters on the promise of first team football.

 

[striebs]

B-C

I won't reply in detail, as I know we are not going to agree. In particular we could argue about what players were recruited under what era - I do not see Jenas and Berbatov as Comolli signings. But I agree that Levy has always been ready to push the boat out for sexy, prestige signings, as was Sugar before him. Tottenham would not be Tottenham without delusions of grandeur. Under Ramos however it seems we will see such signings as the focus of transfer activity rather than special treats.

I do think there was a shift in approach between the Arnesen and Comolli eras: there was less emphasis on buying British and less recognition of the mental toughness that solid journeymen brought to the team. The latter in particular is important as the source of the rift between Jol and Comolli. I am sure that under Ramos we will continue to invest in 'ones for the future', as we have since Pleat was given his own transfer kitty back in the days of Graham, but I think we will see and end to the practice of bringing in raw youngsters on the promise of first team football.

During Ramosgate Jol said half jokingly that he thought Kemsley was in Seville to tap up DC's successor .

Clearly you can't have two people (Commoli and Jol) trying to take the club down different paths .

What seams to have happened is one has been got wrid of but the club has not continued along the (transfer) path of the other .

If we don't credit Commoli with the signing of Berbatov then his overall judgement looks woeful (unless his remit was the real problem) .

What is it that he is so good at that keeps him at the club ? Is it his power of persuasion and convincing players to join ? His contacts ?

Given the same amount of money an overall control Harry Redknap would have got Spurs to the CL , Kemsley was right about that .

 

[SpurSince57]

I think that's a bit harsh. We were starting years behind Wenger's Arsenal sytem. Wenger also has the benefit of the african connection not to mention the same kind of kudos that attracts senior players helps attracts the best youngsters.

I think Lennon has had a pretty good season. But then I've always had a pretty realistic view of that type of winger. They is what they is. I great comparison is the semi-final second leg. For want of something beter to do after a couple glasses of vino the other night I watched it again, Lennon was outstanding. His through ball for Keane's goal was probably the best pass I've seen this season. There are times when he can't win. If he takes someone on and looses out people groan. Remember how people used to question Giggs final ball. At 20 I'm happy to have a player like Lennon in our squad. (for what it's worth I think Walcot doing OK too but he did cost 10 times what Lennon cost)

Maybe, but I think it's fair to say that although Lennon's produced some good and very good performances (and some of the posts about him have been ridiculous) he hasn't progressed quite as much as we'd hoped. The point I was making is that at Arsenal he'd have been eased into the team more gradually instead of being pitched in at the deep end. There would have been a quality, experienced player ahead of him from whom he could have learned.

I think in theory the model's a near-perfect one, but you have to have the foundation of a good, highly successful squad for it to work. How well would Wenger have done if he'd come to Spurs to take over from Francis?

 

[yanno]

Ultimately, I think we have been trying to sign players with potential or proven CL ability ever since Hoddle. (Gooner George was of course quite happy to play the Ginger Pele as our centre forward - so he represents the bad old, crap old, days.)

The key challenges are:
i) persuading CL-level players to sign for us in their prime;
ii) creating the right team shape and spirit (winning mentality) to get into the top four EPL positions.

Signing top players isn't always enough. Look at Barca: they strengthened their squad in the summer with Thierry Henry, YaYa Toure & Gaby Milito. Their forward options included: Ronaldinho, Henry, Eto'o, Messi, and the highly talented kids, Bojan and Giovanni Dos Santos. And yet Barca's season has been rubbish by their own very high standards, and Rijkaard is likely to get sacked.

At Sevilla, Ramos managed to mould some very good, and some journeymen, footballers into a UEFA Cup-winning team. He got the always talented & forever frustrating Fredi Kanoute playing the best and most consistent football of his career. I honestly think that, overall, Ramos already has a better group of players at Spurs than he did at Sevilla. By August, he may have a significantly better first team squad. So, let's hope he can prove he is the world-class coach I strongly suspect he is.

 

[stevenqoz]

A point that people seem to miss is the football you need in the EPL to qualify for the Champions League is probably not appropriate for European top level football. Evertons failure a few seasons back illustrates something similar. The paradox is that big Tom Huddlestone is continually criticised for being too slow in the EPL but would look a superstar in the less harried Euro competition.
If Ramos stays at Spurs half our present squad are dead men walking. We are once again a club who is rebuilding. I suppose that even if Jol had lasted the season and won the League Cup he would have still been sacked and Ramos would have come in for season 2008/9. We have, by bringing him early, got some 'build upon' players.
Woodgate, Hutton, Modric, Lennon, King, Bale, Huddlestone and Berbatov being the main ones.
From the way he played this morning I'd like to Macherano come to us from the scousers, he has that element of horrible bastard in him. Lure Petrov if the Citeh manager goes and grab Ashton from West Ham and we would look good. Nurse bring me my medicine ........
--------Keeper
Hutton King Woodgate Bale
Lennon Huddlestone Modric
--------Macherano
-----Berbatov Ashton

 

[Bus-Conductor]

B-C

I won't reply in detail, as I know we are not going to agree. In particular we could argue about what players were recruited under what era - I do not see Jenas and Berbatov as Comolli signings. But I agree that Levy has always been ready to push the boat out for sexy, prestige signings, as was Sugar before him. Tottenham would not be Tottenham without delusions of grandeur. Under Ramos however it seems we will see such signings as the focus of transfer activity rather than special treats.

I do think there was a shift in approach between the Arnesen and Comolli eras: there was less emphasis on buying British and less recognition of the mental toughness that solid journeymen brought to the team. The latter in particular is important as the source of the rift between Jol and Comolli. I am sure that under Ramos we will continue to invest in 'ones for the future', as we have since Pleat was given his own transfer kitty back in the days of Graham, but I think we will see and end to the practice of bringing in raw youngsters on the promise of first team football.

When I made my post I was careful to talk about era's Arnesen era, Commoli era so that we wouldn't get hung up too much on who signed who as this is always another argument (but for the record I don't know why Commoli wouldn't be given credit for Berbatov's signing etc).

But from the moment a DOF was appointed (Pleat originally) a policy of recruitment was put in place and by and large I don't think it has varied that much. And I don't think from that point on Levy has sanctioned sexy, prestige signings for sexy, prestige's sake either. I think you're choice of phrase is a little derogatory and trivialises exactly what the board have been trying to do. I think over the last 4/5 years we have seen a clear concerted push to sign quality footballers of various ages, prices, nationalities. From the Lennons, Huddlestones and Birchichies to the Jenas's, Carricks, Kanoute's, Berbatovs, Chimbonda's, Davids, Naybets.
An emphasis has rightly been placed on players that retain inherent value, ie a sustainable model that doesn't see the club become Leeds etc. But that policy isn't exclusive and exceptions have been made where the player is of a certain high quality.

And I don't think your english, foreign argument is correct either. Arnesen signed people like Edman, Attouba, Mendes & Commoli signed kids like Lennon, Rose, Parret. I think that quality has always been the first criteria for both men not nationality.

 

[SpurSince57]

You could make a reasonable argument that our best bang-per-buck signings of recent years were made by Jol and Levy in the interlude between Arnesen and Comolli—Lee, Tainio, Salty and Davids, all for £1.3m (plus Ed's wages).

 

[yanno]

B-C: whilst "Birchichie" is amusing, the real name of our promising young left-sided defender is Yuri Berchiche. :wink:

You could make a reasonable argument that our best bang-per-buck signings of recent years were made by Jol and Levy in the interlude between Arnesen and Comolli—Lee, Tainio, Salty and Davids, all for £1.3m (plus Ed's wages).

And yet the three of those still on our books (Lee, Tainio & Salty) all look like they're on Juande's "To Be Sold ASAP" list.

In passing, I still think Tainio is as good a DM as Poulsen and I'm astonished at the way he's been treated since having Fabregas in his pocket in CCSF2...

However, whilst I agree that those four were all good signings at the time, especially in bang-for-buck terms, I think our best signings in recent years have been Carrick and Berbatov. Carrick was a deadline day coup signed for very little, against the wishes of our coach Santini (who preferred Mendes). Berba was also signed for way less than his current market value.

As I wrote above, I believe that man-for-man our first team squad is already better than the Sevilla squad Ramos led to UEFA Cup glory, and is likely to be significantly so come the start of next season. So, the real test will be whether he can mould our collection of players, many of whom are of CL quality, into a Top Four EPL team.

 

[eddiebailey]

I think that quality has always been the first criteria for both men not nationality.

I am sure all clubs have a policy of signing the best players they can attract at a price they can afford. But I still think there have been changes of emphasis in buying policy.

Under Arnesen there was a very clearly laid out blueprint. From choice we would we buy British, if we could not find what we were looking for we would then consider foreign players already playing in the EPL, only if we struck out there would we look at players from overseas leagues. We also had two quite separate recruitment streams, those expected to go straight into the first team and ones for the future to be nurtured through the development squad and by loans. Occasionally ones for the future, such as Dawson or Lennon serendipitously exceeded expectations and were called up to the first team sooner than expected, but that was on merit. The path followed by Calum Davenport or Tom Huddlestone was much more the intended model.

Where the policy changed under Comolli, whose expertise after all lay in European youth football, was that less emphasis was placed on British nationality and EPL experience, and the two transfer streams became blurred, so that youngsters signed from outside the EPL were thrown straight into the first team squad. When Comolli recruited Adel Taarabt, an explicit promise was made that he would be involved with the first team, something which Lens had told him he was not ready for. I cannot imagine a deal being struck on those terms under Arnesen.

 

[DFF]

You could make a reasonable argument that our best bang-per-buck signings of recent years were made by Jol and Levy in the interlude between Arnesen and Comolli—Lee, Tainio, Salty and Davids, all for £1.3m (plus Ed's wages).

They may have been signed after Arnesen left, but i don't think it's a stretch to say they were likely identified as targets by him beforehand.

 

[yanno]

When Comolli recruited Adel Taarabt, an explicit promise was made that he would be involved with the first team, something which Lens had told him he was not ready for. I cannot imagine a deal being struck on those terms under Arnesen.

Taarabt had already been on loan at Spurs for half a season before we signed him permanently, training with our coaches every day, so it's not as if we didn't know exactly what we were getting: a prodigious talent with almost zero sense of how to play for the team.

Looking from the outside, three of our highly promising young multi-million pound purchases - Kaboul, Boateng & Taarabt - just seem to have slipped off the radar. Adel makes the odd cameo appearance for the reserves; Younes & the Prince don't even do that.

Do we have a personalized, intensive, programme for developing the talent of these young players? Does it involve loaning them out to suitable clubs and leagues? Are our coaches working rigorously to improve their strengths and minimize their weaknesses - on a daily basis?

I wish I could answer "Yes" to all those questions. But, from the outside, there's no sign of any of this happening. I hope I'm wrong...

 

[eddiebailey]

They may have been signed after Arnesen left, but i don't think it's a stretch to say they were likely identified as targets by him beforehand.

In fact both Stalteri and Tainio had already agreed to join us before Frank left, and we had been chasing Super Ed for what felt like decades.

 

[SpurSince57]

However, they've more than repaid what we shelled out for them, and we'll turn a profit. (And yes, I'm sure they'd been identified by Arnesen).

I can see why Ramos would pick Zokora over TT, but there's very little in it for me. As for Poulsen, I've seen very little Spanish football this season, but I caught Sevilla v. Almeria last week and saw Sevilla fell apart after Jiminez' bizarre decision to sub Poulsen at half-time. What a good side Almeria are, BTW.

If we can put out our best XI we can compete with anyone. The problem has been that it doesn't seem to take too much to weaken us quite considerably, and that's been evident over the past three seasons. This is why last summer's signings were largely inexplicable to me. It wouldn't come as a massive surprise to me if all of them except Bale were moved on this summer, either.