Our changing blueprint

[striebs]

I don't think anyone can dispute the division the board has created in the ranks of Spurs fans by the way they undermined and sacked Jol and subsequently attempted to discredit him with storys about players diets etc .

As far as I can see the boards apologists aren't saying much more than the ends justifies the means .


The Spurs fanbase was almost a happy family before that . The healing process isn't going to start until people stop trying to rewrite history to suit there arguments .

 

[SpurSince57]

I'm not too sure why spending £40m is an indicator of a manager's stature within the footballing world. Any idiot (not that Jol is an idiot) can spend £40m. Look at Curbishley...

I don't think two 5th place spots would turn people's heads...at the top of your head can you name the managers who finished 5th in La Liga and Serie A in the past two seasons? I know I can't! No cheating. ;-)

Jol's achievements were great, but I hazard a guess what would stick out in a lot of foreigner's minds is the fact despite our 'good' cup runs we managed to lose high profile matches when in great positions to win. The last impressions most would have of Jol from last season is throwing away 2 goal leads and the kamikaze start we endured against Sevilla in the UEFA Cup.

I can't either.

But was our kamikaze start against Sevilla Jol's fault? But for Sevilla's keeper scoring an extra-time equaliser we might well have been playing Donetsk in the quarters. That's the fine edge things turn on.

And whilst you say it was Jol 'throwing away' two-goal leads, let's not forget that Defoe had two glorious chances to bury Chelsea and blew both of them. Mido was a foot or so away from killing Arsenal in the second leg—and Defoe and Berbatov wasted opportunities to blow them away in the first few minutes of the first.

 

[stemark44]

Hey, here's my usual tip for those halfway through their intensive study course to qualify as a Savoy cabbage. Next time you take on a carrot at noughts and crosses, hold the pencil with the pointy end down. It sometimes helps. In your case, I doubt it would, but it's worth a whirl.

Just how fucking thick are you? You didn't mention £40m, you mentioned Kaboul at £8.5 million, Taraabt (spell his name right, FFS) at £3 million and Boateng at £5.4 million. And you forgot Bale and Bent, yeah? We spent £40m last summer. Try using your calculator if you can't cope with basic mental arithmetic that shouldn't be beyond the compass of the average seven-year-old. You do know how to switch on a calculator, don't you?

Has the name Comolli crossed your vacant excuse for a mind? Or Levy? Do you have the first fucking clue about anything?

It would seem that you don't.

Look, I don't really want to get into a personal argument here but lets be serious you were extremely patrionising with your remarks and basically called me a moron - thats why I retaliated!
You disagree with me and I disagree with you -lets not continue with this!

 

[stemark44]

How doe we know they're average? We've barely seen them play, nor have they had any time to develop at the club. Should they go on the market, I think that all three of them will have no shortage of takers.

I am not slagging these players but do you really think that we will get anywhere near £17 million for the three of them?
Sorry but I don't!

 

[batigol]

I can't either.

But was our kamikaze start against Sevilla Jol's fault? But for Sevilla's keeper scoring an extra-time equaliser we might well have been playing Donetsk in the quarters. That's the fine edge things turn on.

And whilst you say it was Jol 'throwing away' two-goal leads, let's not forget that Defoe had two glorious chances to bury Chelsea and blew both of them. Mido was a foot or so away from killing Arsenal in the second leg—and Defoe and Berbatov wasted opportunities to blow them away in the first few minutes of the first.

I think this is getting seriously boring. Everyone had a hand in the lost so there is no point in pointing fingers at the players or just Jol; the blame lies at all their feet. Jol has done well and Jol has screwed up as well. Ramos has done well and he has screwed up too. The difference is that Jol had at least 3 seasons for us to form any sort of judgment while it is plainly too early to wonder about what Ramos can do for us.

Like someone mentioned above, we are a family at Spurs and this Jol and not Jol debate is causing too much friction. Can we all move on and just concentrate on supporting Spurs/ Ramos/ Players next season? We have a new coach and now he is bringing in a new set of players so next season is the time where we can really judge him base on performances.

 

[eddiebailey]

The Jol versus Ramos debate is tedious and divisive. It also misses the point.

My beef is not that Martin Jol was sacked, though I think he did not deserve it. It is not even with the way he was sacked, though I think it was disgraceful. What got my goat is that sacking Martin Jol did not address the reason why we were underperforming. The reason we were underperforming was that we did not have the right mix of players in the squad, and I do not see Martin Jol as being primarily responsible for that. Ramos recognised the problem from the get go; the club then took steps to address the problem at the first opportunity, and there is much more to come. Perhaps too much.

But in the meantime I agree that it is pointless to speculate as to what Martin could have achieved had he remained, and insupportable to claim that Ramos is capable of achieving what Jol could not. Perhaps history will lend a clearer perspective, but I doubt it. They are very different managers dealing with very different circumstances.

I have my doubts about Ramos, as I had my doubts about Jol, but both are clearly capable managers, which is as much as I ask. I do not really believe in the concept of the messianic manager who comes in and transforms a club through his genius alone.

What causes ill feeling is posters justifying Ramos by bashing Jol. And that of course leads to a backlash as others, with longer memories, seek to defend Jol. This in turn creates a mindset among Jol's defenders where Ramos has a lot to prove to justify Jol's dismissal.

We need to forget Jol, all of us, and let Ramos stand or fall on his own merits.

The interesting question for me is what lessons have been learnt by the Board. I think we are lucky to have ENIC as owners, but it seems to me that Daniel Levy has been on a learning curve. There is nothing wrong with that, we all learn from our mistakes, and in retrospect there is much that all of us would have done differently in our jobs. Being fair there is also much he has undoubtedly got right. But it is getting to the stage where in the next few years he needs to deliver, in terms of results on the pitch certainly, but also in terms of addressing the issue of stadium capacity, where progress has been similarly disappointing. I could be wrong, as I have never met the man, but events have left me with an impression of Levy as a man who hesitates, letting others take the initiative, rather than standing firm by his own decisions. It is time now to set a course and stick by it.

 

[double0]

The Jol versus Ramos debate is tedious and divisive. It also misses the point.

My beef is not that Martin Jol was sacked, though I think he did not deserve it. It is not even with the way he was sacked, though I think it was disgraceful. What got my goat is that sacking Martin Jol did not address the reason why we were underperforming. The reason we were underperforming was that we did not have the right mix of players in the squad, and I do not see Martin Jol as being primarily responsible for that. Ramos recognised the problem from the get go; the club then took steps to address the problem at the first opportunity, and there is much more to come. Perhaps too much.

But in the meantime I agree that it is pointless to speculate as to what Martin could have achieved had he remained, and insupportable to claim that Ramos is capable of achieving what Jol could not. Perhaps history will lend a clearer perspective, but I doubt it. They are very different managers dealing with very different circumstances.

I have my doubts about Ramos, as I had my doubts about Jol, but both are clearly capable managers, which is as much as I ask. I do not really believe in the concept of the messianic manager who comes in and transforms a club through his genius alone.

What causes ill feeling is posters justifying Ramos by bashing Jol. And that of course leads to a backlash as others, with longer memories, seek to defend Jol. This in turn creates a mindset among Jol's defenders where Ramos has a lot to prove to justify Jol's dismissal.

We need to forget Jol, all of us, and let Ramos stand or fall on his own merits.

The interesting question for me is what lessons have been learnt by the Board. I think we are lucky to have ENIC as owners, but it seems to me that Daniel Levy has been on a learning curve. There is nothing wrong with that, we all learn from our mistakes, and in retrospect there is much that all of us would have done differently in our jobs. Being fair there is also much he has undoubtedly got right. But it is getting to the stage where in the next few years he needs to deliver, in terms of results on the pitch certainly, but also in terms of addressing the issue of stadium capacity, where progress has been similarly disappointing. I could be wrong, as I have never met the man, but events have left me with an impression of Levy as a man who hesitates, letting others take the initiative, rather than standing firm by his own decisions. It is time now to set a course and stick by it.

Well said.:clap:

 

[Coyboy]

The Jol versus Ramos debate is tedious and divisive. It also misses the point.

My beef is not that Martin Jol was sacked, though I think he did not deserve it. It is not even with the way he was sacked, though I think it was disgraceful. What got my goat is that sacking Martin Jol did not address the reason why we were underperforming. The reason we were underperforming was that we did not have the right mix of players in the squad, and I do not see Martin Jol as being primarily responsible for that. Ramos recognised the problem from the get go; the club then took steps to address the problem at the first opportunity, and there is much more to come. Perhaps too much.

But in the meantime I agree that it is pointless to speculate as to what Martin could have achieved had he remained, and insupportable to claim that Ramos is capable of achieving what Jol could not. Perhaps history will lend a clearer perspective, but I doubt it. They are very different managers dealing with very different circumstances.

I have my doubts about Ramos, as I had my doubts about Jol, but both are clearly capable managers, which is as much as I ask. I do not really believe in the concept of the messianic manager who comes in and transforms a club through his genius alone.

What causes ill feeling is posters justifying Ramos by bashing Jol. And that of course leads to a backlash as others, with longer memories, seek to defend Jol. This in turn creates a mindset among Jol's defenders where Ramos has a lot to prove to justify Jol's dismissal.

We need to forget Jol, all of us, and let Ramos stand or fall on his own merits.

The interesting question for me is what lessons have been learnt by the Board. I think we are lucky to have ENIC as owners, but it seems to me that Daniel Levy has been on a learning curve. There is nothing wrong with that, we all learn from our mistakes, and in retrospect there is much that all of us would have done differently in our jobs. Being fair there is also much he has undoubtedly got right. But it is getting to the stage where in the next few years he needs to deliver, in terms of results on the pitch certainly, but also in terms of addressing the issue of stadium capacity, where progress has been similarly disappointing. I could be wrong, as I have never met the man, but events have left me with an impression of Levy as a man who hesitates, letting others take the initiative, rather than standing firm by his own decisions. It is time now to set a course and stick by it.

Well put. I have been too insensitive to posts of the like; 'This wouldn't have happened under Jol' and 'Now we have someone who knows what they are doing'. People tend to rewrite history to support an arguement.

I was going to write a short note, a plea for us here to let Jol go down in history as someone who loved Spurs, who improved Spurs and who, though this word is overused, is a legend at Spurs.

Let him join the likes of Hoddle, Gascoigne, Greaves, Burkinshaw, Rowe and Nicholson. He may have not had the success of the last two but you cannot say he didn't love the club and give his all as they did (he didn't have the same time, we live in a different world now).

I wouldn't say 'forget' but I would say stop relating what Ramos does to what Jol did or didn't do. Who knows maybe he will be back one day to finish what he started.

Thanks.

 

[idlepete]

Yep, well said Eddie. Would rep you but I've gotta spread the lurve.

 

[SpurSince57]

I think this is getting seriously boring. Everyone had a hand in the lost so there is no point in pointing fingers at the players or just Jol; the blame lies at all their feet. Jol has done well and Jol has screwed up as well. Ramos has done well and he has screwed up too. The difference is that Jol had at least 3 seasons for us to form any sort of judgment while it is plainly too early to wonder about what Ramos can do for us.

Like someone mentioned above, we are a family at Spurs and this Jol and not Jol debate is causing too much friction. Can we all move on and just concentrate on supporting Spurs/ Ramos/ Players next season? We have a new coach and now he is bringing in a new set of players so next season is the time where we can really judge him base on performances.

I think Eddie's pretty much answered for me, but I will add that what drives me up the wall is this new received wisdom in some quarters that Jol was some kind of bumbling incompetent who pretty much lucked his way to two fifth places.

It seems pretty clear to me that Ramos is having precisely the same problems as Jol, and we're seeing that reflected in performances. With a couple of notable exceptions Ramos has pretty much stuck to Jol's first choices, and we're still seeing bewildering inconsistency, absurd defensive errors, failure to kill games off despite having a hatful of chances, general collapses when the opposition bites back. It strikes me that if two good managers are having the same difficulties then you have to look at the players, and the policy that's brought them in.

 

[DC_Boy]

With all these assessments and assumptions, next season is absolutley massive. We have to find the right ingredients for instant success. To clarify sucess, top 4 is a minimum requirement. .

Well I'm afraid unless we buy a lot more quality in the summer that's a failure of a season we'll be looking at - because we are way short of top 4 at present - even if we do spend big and well it's still a massive ask to break the cartel

I really think it's setting oneself up for disappointment to expect top 4 next season - maybe I'll change my tune by the first week of September when I do my definitive prediction - but that's how I feel now

 

[striebs]

With all these assessments and assumptions, next season is absolutley massive. We have to find the right ingredients for instant success. To clarify sucess, top 4 is a minimum requirement. ....I also believe he will sanction big money for one maybe two big name signings.

Time is one of the ingredients of success .

Even if you get 9 women together you cannot make a baby in a month , though it would be fun trying

It's depressing how prevalent this belief is in companies where the only solution is to throw money and bodies at problems .

Where is all this money going to come from to bridge the gap with the top 4 ? It's going to take quite a lot .

 

[eddiebailey]

It's depressing how prevalent this belief is in companies

Ah, the dreaded step change! The holy grail of British management.

Anyone who identifies a problem is off message and only losers get bogged down in piddling detail. Just do it. Then sit back and watch as a visionary approach to delivering instant results turns into an overnight shambles.

Welcome to Terminal 5.

 

[SpurSince57]

You can compare our situation with Liverpool trying to become title contenders. They threatened briefly two years ago and have since slipped back, and are no better off than they were when Houllier left. (You also wonder where they'd be without Torres' goals.)

Quite simply, our aspirations have been badly knocked back this season, and unless Ramos pulls off some kind of miracle next season is going to be all about rebuilding—yet another 'transitional' one. Another UEFA spot is the minimum. The 'Big Four' will be strengthening their squads, and Everton, Villa and City aren't going to be standing still either (although the nonsense going on at City might put a spanner in their works).

 

[DC_Boy]

Where is all this money going to come from to bridge the gap with the top 4 ? It's going to take quite a lot .

exactly striebs - and looking at our current business model - I just don't see enough being available- even if we keep all our key players we need I reckon at least another £40m of investment to buy the four quality players we need - given that it's rare to get it all right in one go - call it £50m for a bit of back up -

even then there are no guarantees - it's not just the big 4 players - it's the big 4 mentality - the Sky cheerleading, the ref bias, the whole ****ing caboodle of a decade of dominance those 4 clubs have assembled -

 

[Allen]

Good thread!

There have been various plans; the club has installed leaders - good and bad, mostly good in positions which has taken the club forward / strengthen the brand.

The only plan which hasn't been implemented is bringing leaders into the team. Periodically if we did, we'd have made the CL.

 

[stemark44]

The Jol versus Ramos debate is tedious and divisive. It also misses the point.

My beef is not that Martin Jol was sacked, though I think he did not deserve it. It is not even with the way he was sacked, though I think it was disgraceful. What got my goat is that sacking Martin Jol did not address the reason why we were underperforming. The reason we were underperforming was that we did not have the right mix of players in the squad, and I do not see Martin Jol as being primarily responsible for that. Ramos recognised the problem from the get go; the club then took steps to address the problem at the first opportunity, and there is much more to come. Perhaps too much.

But in the meantime I agree that it is pointless to speculate as to what Martin could have achieved had he remained, and insupportable to claim that Ramos is capable of achieving what Jol could not. Perhaps history will lend a clearer perspective, but I doubt it. They are very different managers dealing with very different circumstances.

I have my doubts about Ramos, as I had my doubts about Jol, but both are clearly capable managers, which is as much as I ask. I do not really believe in the concept of the messianic manager who comes in and transforms a club through his genius alone.

What causes ill feeling is posters justifying Ramos by bashing Jol. And that of course leads to a backlash as others, with longer memories, seek to defend Jol. This in turn creates a mindset among Jol's defenders where Ramos has a lot to prove to justify Jol's dismissal.

We need to forget Jol, all of us, and let Ramos stand or fall on his own merits.

The interesting question for me is what lessons have been learnt by the Board. I think we are lucky to have ENIC as owners, but it seems to me that Daniel Levy has been on a learning curve. There is nothing wrong with that, we all learn from our mistakes, and in retrospect there is much that all of us would have done differently in our jobs. Being fair there is also much he has undoubtedly got right. But it is getting to the stage where in the next few years he needs to deliver, in terms of results on the pitch certainly, but also in terms of addressing the issue of stadium capacity, where progress has been similarly disappointing. I could be wrong, as I have never met the man, but events have left me with an impression of Levy as a man who hesitates, letting others take the initiative, rather than standing firm by his own decisions. It is time now to set a course and stick by it.

Great comments and totally agree with all of them but just to be clear - I was not slagging Jol off in any way by suggesting that he was a pretty unknown manager throughout Europe and had very little pulling power when it came to buying top players!

 

[justfookinhitit]

Hey, here's my usual tip for those halfway through their intensive study course to qualify as a Savoy cabbage. Next time you take on a carrot at noughts and crosses, hold the pencil with the pointy end down. It sometimes helps. In your case, I doubt it would, but it's worth a whirl.

Just how fucking thick are you? You didn't mention £40m, you mentioned Kaboul at £8.5 million, Taraabt (spell his name right, FFS) at £3 million and Boateng at £5.4 million. And you forgot Bale and Bent, yeah? We spent £40m last summer. Try using your calculator if you can't cope with basic mental arithmetic that shouldn't be beyond the compass of the average seven-year-old. You do know how to switch on a calculator, don't you?

Has the name Comolli crossed your vacant excuse for a mind? Or Levy? Do you have the first fucking clue about anything?

It would seem that you don't.

Calm down mate, calm down. You might not like what the guy says but there's no need to rip his head off. You'll only scare off others that want to post but don't want to be ridiculed the same way. Plenty have picked up a ban from the site for something similar.