What's going wrong? Passmap for SCBC sums it up nicely

[spursfan77]

This,

He barely even offers Aurier any protection either, hes caught in that no-mans land between CM and the place he should be covering the majority of the time, thats we get absolutley smashed down the right side, and there is never an outlet for our CB's to pass to. His positioning is piss poor.

It's why I wouldn't play him. Both him and Aurier arent good enough.

 

[Johnny J]

No wonder every single opposition can walk through our midfield with ease. We basically don't have one.

 

[WiganSpur]

We have two fundamental problems. The first is mistrust between the backline and some of the midfield players in terms of midfielders being willing to receive the ball, turn and find a vertical ball or at least retain possession. This results in too many long balls from the backline, passes to midfield players under pressure who haven't made the required movement, or the midfield players turning back and going to square one because they aren't confident in their ability to beat an opposition press. Under Pochettino you saw so many times that we only started playing when Eriksen was moved back by Poch to create a midfield three or when Mourinho has used him as part of a CM2. The recent Brighton game being an example of that.

The second is being too vulnerable to counter attacking. This is I feel a combination of poor positional sense and a lack of athleticism from our midfield players. We need to be more proactive in defending them, hunting down the opposition closer to source, but you need the players to do that.

For all this talk of things going stale, these problems started for me (particularly no.2) when the Dembele and Wanyama partnership came to an end in 17/18. They were both superb CMs, athletic, extremely strong, neat and tidy in possession with the defence very happy to give them the ball. Most of the time they'd clear up counter attacks very easily, and it meant that no tactical changes were required to get control over a game. We all say the reason for our decline is that barely anything changed, but it did in terms of us effectively losing these two and not replacing them adequately. The common denominator in us turning in a shitshow is the continual presence of one if not both of Dier and Sissoko plodding in our midfield. Pochettino and Mourinho also cannot be absolved from blame for continuing to pick them even when youth options would be better.

With VW and Moussa leaving/declining, it's meant we've had to rely on any combination of Dembele and Wanyama mk.2, Dier, Sissoko or Winks.

None of those are able to solve both problems effectively. Dier and Sissoko can do neither. Winks offers some ability to neat the play together and is confident in receiving the ball. But in a two he often leads us too open to counter attacks because of his lack of strength and his diminutive size. He also still struggles with positional awareness.

Ndombele is of course the closest to being good at both these things. He offers a bit more strength and athleticism than Winks, but he is superb in terms of being able to receive it, turn and find the progressive pass. He still however lacks the concentration and awareness stop the counter attacks. Fitness also now a major concern which is just our luck.

I also like Skipp's aggression and he too can show for the ball well. He is a much better option than Dier and Sissoko and should be starting a lot more games. Whether he is a long term solution in a CM2, I don't know but in theory I feel our current best CM2 combination would be him and Ndombele.

If you're asking me where £100m needs to be spent, it's on at least one if not two complete midfield players. Defensively strong, aggressive and athletic whilst being assured in possession. To play a CM2 you need these types of players or you get bullied.

Winks I feel may improve with that sort of player next to him, but as far as i'm concerned Dier and Sissoko need to change position or they can go.

 

[parj]

Our best games have been played without Eriksen starting & with Son, Dele, Moura & Kane up front & only tended to call on Eriksen if things weren't going right.

Things seem to unravel when we don't have Kane, Son etc. up front & we don't get the ball forward quickly enough & that's because we don't have another system that works without those 4 involved.

Kane's going to be out for a few weeks at least, so Jose going to have to find another system to cope with his loss. Mind you he needs to find away of getting the likes of Lucas & Lo Celso to look anything other than bang average.

The problem is Son provides the energy which also gets Lucas going cos not many teams have players that can cos with the pace of both Lucas and Son. If only one plays then it's easier to double on the one playing.

 

[rsmith]

Your logic is flawed. You're suggesting that sissoko is unavailable to receive a pass out of defence because he is covering aurier's RB position. The real reason is sissoko doesn't want the ball. Just watch him over 90n minutes and it's constant pointing away, rather than move into space and ask for the ball. Because he's essentially non-existent, the opposition always have an extra man to cover aurier, or whichever poor sod has found himself partnering sissoko n midfield. The first map seems to show not one single pass from either CB to sissoko which clearly shows what both he and his teammates think of his ability to play football.

 

[Syn_13]

We have two fundamental problems. The first is mistrust between the backline and some of the midfield players in terms of midfielders being willing to receive the ball, turn and find a vertical ball or at least retain possession. This results in too many long balls from the backline, passes to midfield players under pressure who haven't made the required movement, or the midfield players turning back and going to square one because they aren't confident in their ability to beat an opposition press. Under Pochettino you saw so many times that we only started playing when Eriksen was moved back by Poch to create a midfield three or when Mourinho has used him as part of a CM2. The recent Brighton game being an example of that.

The second is being too vulnerable to counter attacking. This is I feel a combination of poor positional sense and a lack of athleticism from our midfield players. We need to be more proactive in defending them, hunting down the opposition closer to source, but you need the players to do that.

For all this talk of things going stale, these problems started for me (particularly no.2) when the Dembele and Wanyama partnership came to an end in 17/18. They were both superb CMs, athletic, extremely strong, neat and tidy in possession with the defence very happy to give them the ball. Most of the time they'd clear up counter attacks very easily, and it meant that no tactical changes were required to get control over a game. We all say the reason for our decline is that barely anything changed, but it did in terms of us effectively losing these two and not replacing them adequately. The common denominator in us turning in a shitshow is the continual presence of one if not both of Dier and Sissoko plodding in our midfield. Pochettino and Mourinho also cannot be absolved from blame for continuing to pick them even when youth options would be better.

With VW and Moussa leaving/declining, it's meant we've had to rely on any combination of Dembele and Wanyama mk.2, Dier, Sissoko or Winks.

None of those are able to solve both problems effectively. Dier and Sissoko can do neither. Winks offers some ability to neat the play together and is confident in receiving the ball. But in a two he often leads us too open to counter attacks because of his lack of strength and his diminutive size. He also still struggles with positional awareness.

Ndombele is of course the closest to being good at both these things. He offers a bit more strength and athleticism than Winks, but he is superb in terms of being able to receive it, turn and find the progressive pass. He still however lacks the concentration and awareness stop the counter attacks. Fitness also now a major concern which is just our luck.

I also like Skipp's aggression and he too can show for the ball well. He is a much better option than Dier and Sissoko and should be starting a lot more games. Whether he is a long term solution in a CM2, I don't know but in theory I feel our current best CM2 combination would be him and Ndombele.

If you're asking me where £100m needs to be spent, it's on at least one if not two complete midfield players. Defensively strong, aggressive and athletic whilst being assured in possession. To play a CM2 you need these types of players or you get bullied.

Winks I feel may improve with that sort of player next to him, but as far as i'm concerned Dier and Sissoko need to change position or they can go.

I'm inclined to agree on most of what you say here. I would add that the full backs are a large part of the problem as well. In the past we had Rose and Walker, a dynamic duo who pressed high up the pitch and provided us with real width. They could be relied on, and even if they had their flaws at times (sometimes poor delivery or lapses in concentration from the likes of Walker) they were strong, athletic players who would just keep giving. What they provided to the team far outweighed their flaws. Dembele and Wanyama were perfect to sit in front of the defence whilst those 2 helped support the attack. We had a lot more balance in the squad.

I know plenty of people have commented on the full back situation so there's not much point going in to it further, but I feel like the CM2 with the players we currently have at our disposal is not going to work with the full backs we currently employ as well. They need more protection and we're more susceptible to the counter, like you've said. I think the best thing for us to do right now is sacrifice one of the attackers, be it Alli or Moura, and switch to a CM3.

It's a shame that we've got an issue with Ndombele's fitness/injuries, but even when available I don't think we have another player who can sit alongside him that will give us protection and complement his abilities. What we need is the old Wanyama, a pure powerhouse to protect the back line and allow the rest of the team to play, but we don't have that. Southampton dominated our midfield and we seem to get overrun in the middle often. Adding an extra player in that midfield might help, but it's all about balance with a CM3. It's okay to have defined roles - a tackler, a creator, a workhorse, a water-carrier, a metronome, etc. - but the key is finding 3 players that can excel in certain roles and overlap slightly within others. Not sure if we'll truly cover everything but I feel like we have a few options to explore with the players we have at our disposal.

 

[idontgetit]

While I wholeheartedly agree regarding our midfield issues, could the foundational issue actually be that our defence is not as aggressive pushing up as it once was.

We were a team built from the back. Maybe the problem starts at the back. The charts clearly show a gap and it might not simply be an absent midfielder. Would be interesting to compare to the likes of Liverpool etc where the average backline is on the pitch

 

[spursfan77]

While I wholeheartedly agree regarding our midfield issues, could the foundational issue actually be that our defence is not as aggressive pushing up as it once was.

We were a team built from the back. Maybe the problem starts at the back. The charts clearly show a gap and it might not simply be an absent midfielder. Would be interesting to compare to the likes of Liverpool etc where the average backline is on the pitch

There’s not enough aggression all over the pitch now in terms of everything. The players could rouse themselves to do it for jose’s first few games now they’ve reverted to type. Nothing is going to change until we have a major overhaul. We need to get Campos in from Lille and just let him get on with building a new first XI.

 

[tototoner]

I thought this was a useful/interesting image to sum up what I think's going wrong.

My interpretation of this is that:

Sissoko is having to cover for Aurier's poor positional awareness and because of this:

• We basically lose a central midfielder.
• There is no shield in front of the back 2.

Alli in a free role does nothing productive and although he's heavily involved, attacks die out when they get to him. Alli, Kane and Moura are all trying to occupy the same space and that causes various problems.

• It often gives Eriken little choice but to pass backwards.
• Toby/Verts have no one to pick out going forward.
• Sessegnon has no one to cross the ball to.

Losing Eriksen without trying to change this system is going to be a nightmare.

Son coming back should make a huge difference.

I wonder why Eriksen doesn't pass to Vertonghen

 

[daryl hannah]

There’s not enough aggression all over the pitch now in terms of everything. The players could rouse themselves to do it for jose’s first few games now they’ve reverted to type. Nothing is going to change until we have a major overhaul. We need to get Campos in from Lille and just let him get on with building a new first XI.

It's difficult to understand it really - the first couple of games under Jose we looked like we had a spring in our step and new manager bounce. January window approaches and everyones' heads drop. Jan looked particularly unhappy - his body language spoke volumes.

Funnily enough I think Sissoko is one of the ones actually trying. Why is Dier now so poor?

Our forward play is largely ineffective again it looks neither as though the team have been coached by Poch, nor by Jose. It's a free for all - no strategy. Jose needs time and we've had a lot of games in quick succession where there's been little time to prepare. FOr some reason, Norwich and Saints were able to prepare.

Press us and we crumble - it was ever thus.

 

[rsmith]

It's difficult to understand it really - the first couple of games under Jose we looked like we had a spring in our step and new manager bounce.

Not that difficult to understand - the first couple of games he dropped sissoko.

 

[spursfan77]

No wonder every single opposition can walk through our midfield with ease. We basically don't have one.

It was the problem with the diamond under Poch and it’s a problem now when sissoko plays centrally. For all their faults I’d go back to a midfield two of Dier and winks maybe even with skipp or lo celso in there too, flat back four and an attack of lo celso or sessegnon, Dele and Son. Try and stop the goals being conceded.

 

[Johnny J]

It was the problem with the diamond under Poch and it’s a problem now when sissoko plays centrally. For all their faults I’d go back to a midfield two of Dier and winks maybe even with skipp or lo celso in there too, flat back four and an attack of lo celso or sessegnon, Dele and Son. Try and stop the goals being conceded.

I love Sissoko's attitude but we've caused a lot of problems in continually trying to accommodate someone who can barely trap a football in midfield.

 

[idontgetit]

Another way of looking at it is we've been conditioned to play too narrow and there's not enough passing options in front of the ball because they're all squashed and easily blocked.

 

[Johnny J]

Another way of looking at it is we've been conditioned to play too narrow and there's not enough passing options in front of the ball because they're all squashed and easily blocked.

Our movement off the ball is usually awful too.

 

[malin]

Found Liverpool's from against City in November.

Although these are examples from just one game, the stand-out for me in comparison to the Spurs maps are the positioning of Fabinho and Salah.

With Fabinho playing deeper the triangle formed between goalkeeper, centre backs, fullbacks and central midfielder looks more solid.

At the other end of the pitch Salah’s position highlights just how much Kane drops back into midfield. As Rob mentioned in the initial post, all of our forward players were trying to occupy the same space.

 

[spursfan77]

Although these are examples from just one game, the stand-out for me in comparison to the Spurs maps are the positioning of Fabinho and Salah.

With Fabinho playing deeper the triangle formed between goalkeeper, centre backs, fullbacks and central midfielder looks more solid.

At the other end of the pitch Salah’s position highlights just how much Kane drops back into midfield. As Rob mentioned in the initial post, all of our forward players were trying to occupy the same space.

I agree and it should be easy to rectify. I can’t imagine Mourinho is telling the players to play like the diagrams show us to be. They can’t be listening.

 

[southlondonyiddo]

Tactics smashtics

All well and good but if your not up for it, not winning any 2nd balls, not closing down, not tracking back enough. If there is a lack of commitment and movement with players not giving each other options and pass after pass being misplaced then all this means absolutely sweet FA

First and foremost you've got to win the battle then the rest may follow

 

[Metalhead]

Selling Trippier without an adequate replacement continues to look like a fantastic decision doesn’t it.

Totally agree Tucks but yet the guy was getting slagged off royally before he was sold.

 

[DJS]

If everyone was fully fit and we played:

Lloris

Aurier (??) Alderweireld Sanchez Davies

Winks Dier (Skipp?) Ndombele

Lamela Kane Son


We’d be a lot more solid.

Need a new first choice right back desperately though and probably a right sided midfielder.