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The Defence Thread

SUIYHA

Well-Known Member
Jan 15, 2017
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Have seen a lot of coverage of our defensive woes in different player threads, so instead of trying to blame every individual then I think it's worth aggregating it in one place and trying to think of where things are going wrong and more importantly, what the solutions are.

In a most un-Mourinho but very Tottenham type way, we now appear to have a devastating attack that can blow teams away but a defence that is ultimately costing us far too many points. We are now up to ten games in a row without a clean sheet (statisticians help me out please - when was the last time we went on a run so bad?) and whilst I fully accept that some of our attacking players also deserve some blame for not killing certain games off at vital moments, the fact is we are dropping points and are vulnerable because of an inability to defend at important moments. Let's say Liverpool (at least pre-Van Dijk injury) go three goals up in a game, or even two goals up in a game - the opposition's heads drop and they stop trying, as they know there's no chance of getting it back. But with us - teams know that even when Kane, Son and co are firing, they feel they can still nick a goal and turn it around, so they keep banging on the door.

On one hand - you can say that nobody bar Villa look particularly strong defensively this season - that the new handball rules are giving away more penalties, the lack of crowds changes the dynamics, and that if we'd held on five minutes longer we'd have the second best defensive record in the league. But what I think is - these "wondergoals" and "bullshit decisions" seem to happen to us more often than they need to, partially because we allow ourselves to get into negative positions where bad luck can go against us.

In the Skriniar thread before the window closed, I wrote:

I don't see how anyone can look at our complete inability to keep clean sheets (nine games in a row without one - think we've only had about three in all competitions since the City game at the start of February), and think our defence is good enough.

We played some brilliant counter-attacking football yesterday, but a savvier, better organised side should have been able to beat us after we threw a goal away in the opening minutes. We can talk about how our "mentality" got us back into the game after the early setback until the cows come home, but how many times have we dropped points over the years against these annoying teams that nick a goal off a defensive mistake and then put 10 men behind the ball to which we have no answer. We need to cut out those situations and I don't see Dier, Sanchez, an ageing Toby and a still raw Tanganga as good enough to do that on their own.

The top class CB is the missing piece of the puzzle that we desperately need. Ideally a top class Eriksen replacement too but without shifting Alli I think that would be a struggle.

My opinion hasn't changed - I don't think any of our CBs are good enough unless Rodon turns out to be the next big thing. We are still giving away too many needless fouls in dangerous positions and failing to deal with the oncoming set pieces. We are still conceding too many goals because of poor concentration and poor technical ability amongst our defenders. I love Hugo and think he's massively improved since lockdown, but I also think that if we'd had the genuine 10/10 transfer window people were going on about, then instead of Joe Hart we'd have signed a top class, younger keeper who could be Hugo's long term successor - Lanzini's goal was a brilliant strike but I couldn't help but think if Hugo has got a hand to it he should be strong enough to keep it out - maybe I'm being harsh but it still feels like he's not as reliable as some of his rivals.

I also think tactically we're letting ourselves down. Easy for me to say with hindsight that the subs were wrong, but we've seen multiple games now where teams punish us with set-pieces and us regressing deeper as teams push forward in hope of getting something out of the game. Yesterday we should have brought on Davies instead of Moura and gone three/five at the back - if our CBs are making too many mistakes then we need more bodies back to help them and minimise the space for the opposition. Aurier, Doherty and Reguilon all appear better suited to wing-back roles anyway, so I'm not sure why we are not experimenting more with three at the back as I think it removes a lot of the burden on the likes of Sanchez or Dier having a brain fart if there are two other CBs to cover them.

We're stuck with the current bunch until January at least - but we urgently need to figure out how to sort out this mess if we're going to genuinely compete. Thoughts, suggestions, solutions - let's have 'em.
 

spursfan1991

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2008
1,747
4,058
I dont see levy signing anymore defenders unless someone leaves which will be a difficult task in January, possibly even in the summer.

We need tanganga to step up and become the next ledley king and we need the new welsh kid to be an instant success too. Aurier needs to go back to being a back up right back.
 

cliff jones

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
4,081
6,599
Think it should called be the defending thread, since during the home games to date most of our problems have been when we have a lot of players back but still concede.

the other comment I’d have is that we need to stop trying to control a game from a low block, the pressure mounts and chances come, give away silly free kicks and corners, and have a keeper who is glued to his line
 

kent brockman

Beware of the Daviesaurus
Sep 1, 2012
1,253
2,618
One particular aspect that has been very exposed this season is our CB’s weakness in the air. We have conceded four goals (Everton, Southampton’s first and Spammer’s first and third) and one penalty (Newcash) from pretty much the exact same freekick from our right side. I think we should seriously consider throwing Rodon into the pool asap.
 

chrissivad

Staff
May 20, 2005
51,646
58,072
I still think we have an issue at CM that isn't helping.

Winks and Sissoko just don't have the awareness to play there. They get drawn out of position to easily leaving huge gaps for players to walk through.

Hojbjerg needs to be at least one of the deeper cm's and just hold that position.

We are lacking that leader at CB at the moment. Dier is the closest, but is making silly mistakes due to being a CM for so long.
 

yankspurs

Enic Out
Aug 22, 2013
41,941
71,357
It isnt good enough. We have severe problems at CB. Toby is really so far past it now its not worth mentioning him in this discussion. Signing him to a new deal was a mistake. Dier makes so many stupid mistakes. Sanchez is still on the younger side and will get better. But he needs someone competent alongside him. Tanganga is young with really good potential but is never fit at all. Rodon just got here and wont get time to prove he should play until January at the earliest. Another problem, the stark lack of leadership at CB. Jan was past it but we sorely miss his leadership on the back line.
 

Mark_147

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2011
1,808
3,019
It isnt good enough. We have severe problems at CB. Toby is really so far past it now its not worth mentioning him in this discussion. Signing him to a new deal was a mistake. Dier makes so many stupid mistakes. Sanchez is still on the younger side and will get better. But he needs someone competent alongside him. Tanganga is young with really good potential but is never fit at all. Rodon just got here and wont get time to prove he should play until January at the earliest. Another problem, the stark lack of leadership at CB. Jan was past it but we sorely miss his leadership on the back line.
Agree look at Sanchez in his second season when Toby was out injured for 4 months Sanchez stepped in and looked very good alongside vertonghen. We need a good experienced LCB.
 

dude573

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
1,601
4,881
Our defence is not the best, but we have also had some rotten luck this season and I do think there is a good chance we can get better.

Taking all things into account, in the Prem we have only conceded two goals from open play - one of which was a wonder strike. We have given away three pens - two of which were thanks to the new handball rule and the other goals were from set pieces and one own goal.

Besides the Everton game and a good ball over the top for Ings, I don't think our defence has been torn apart of truly breached during open play. Our weakness right now seems to be long balls and defending set pieces, which I would argue are easier to improve at. I have no doubt that we will be working on these in training this month.

Even the most pessimistic Spurs fans will surely see that we have had such bad luck at home this season too. No complaints about the Everton game, but during Newcastle/West Ham a lot of things went against us.

We should have been more clinical in the first 45 against Newcastle. We weren't and they responded by bringing on Andy Carrol, pumping the ball forward and then screaming handball at every opportunity - they got it and a dodgy call turned three points into one. That game also led to the officials 'softening' the handball rule.

Besides one Fornals chance in the second half, West Ham didn't really create anything amazing against us. They deserve a lot of credit to draw, but in reality they scored from a free kick, an own goal and a wonder strike. We also hit the post and had a rusty Bale shoot inches wide of the goal.

I don't think our defence is anywhere near bad as it feels it is. Sanchez had poor moments, but he also completely nullified Antonio/Bowen who're West Ham's best players. He put the ball in his own net, but he was put in that position because Lucas/Reguilon were suckered in by a reverse pass.

You could also argue that we were without our first choice CB in Dier, and Rodon who is 6ft4 has clearly been signed for a reason. All the talk of 'same old Spurs' or 'Spursy' makes it feel worse than it is.
 

fortworthspur

Well-Known Member
Nov 12, 2007
11,248
17,550
everyone focuses on CBs, but the guys around them are leaving them exposed, Aurier in particular. It must be hard for a CB when you dont know where your fullback is going to be. Agree with the point about the midfielders, too. That year we were so good on defense - 2016 I believe, we had Walker and Rose who would always get back into position outside and Wanyama/Dembele in front .
 

kent brockman

Beware of the Daviesaurus
Sep 1, 2012
1,253
2,618
everyone focuses on CBs, but the guys around them are leaving them exposed, Aurier in particular. It must be hard for a CB when you dont know where your fullback is going to be. Agree with the point about the midfielders, too. That year we were so good on defense - 2016 I believe, we had Walker and Rose who would always get back into position outside and Wanyama/Dembele in front .

It still does not explain the large amount of goals conceded from set pieces, which is largely due to our CBs losing their aerial duels.
 

fortworthspur

Well-Known Member
Nov 12, 2007
11,248
17,550
It still does not explain the large amount of goals conceded from set pieces, which is largely due to our CBs losing their aerial duels.

Sissoko was guarding Balbuena yesterday. Id have to look at the others but obviously with only two CBs on the pitch other players are going to have defend set pieces as well.
 

Neon_Knight_

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2011
4,007
6,660
This thread is a bit sensationalist to me. Our defence is not perfect and yesterday was not pretty, but anyone who has been watching other games (or MotD) will be aware that the majority of our rivals have worse defences than ours - based on performances over the first five games, not just the poor half a game that ours had yesterday. If our defence is as bad as some of you are making out, most other defences in the PL must be an utter embarrassment...cos they're worse than ours.

48 hours ago, we had the best goal difference in the league. We had scored the joint most PL goals while conceding the second fewest. Only one team in the PL had conceded fewer goals than us (Aston Villa).

We hadn't kept a clean sheet (would have if not for the penalty against Newcastle), but we had been playing attacking football and scoring far more than we conceded. 2/5 goals conceded were ridiculous penalties for "hand ball", while 3 could have been avoided with better defending. For me, that is very acceptable.

We had an awful (but brief) defensive spell yesterday, which cost us the game. Despite this, we've still conceded fewer goals than Liverpool, Chelsea and Man United. Most of the teams who have conceded fewer goals than us are below us in the table, because they can't/don't attack well enough. If it wasn't for that ridiculous penalty against Newcastle, we would be 3rd in the league and only two teams would have conceded fewer goals than us.

If we still had a CB pairing of Toby and Jan in their prime, our defence would be better than it is right now and we would concede fewer goals. We'd have an extra 3 points (goalless draw against Everton and a win against West Ham), but would still have drawn 1-1 against Newcastle, because even the very best CBs flail their arms if pushed in the back mid-jump. We would be 3rd in the league - the stupid handball rule has had as much impact on our league position as our defensive errors have.

After the next round of games it is very possible that we'll be back to having the second best defence in the league, in terms of goals conceded.




 

mil1lion

This is the place to be
May 7, 2004
42,450
77,954
With the exception of Sheff Utd away and West Ham yesterday we haven't been too bad since the restart. It just seems like a lot of goals we do concede are soft ones that we should be able to avoid. I miss having an aerial presence defending crosses. I used to love Dawson for that, hopefully Rodon can do it well because we're crying out for someone at the back who dominates in the air.
 

BringBack_leGin

Well-Known Member
Jul 28, 2004
27,719
54,929
Isn’t everything in the OP being covered extensively enough across the mourinho thread, the match thread, the ratings thread, various player threads and even the Skriniar thread off in the TW forum?

No insult intended, but this side was antsy enough today without a place to amalgamate the angst.
 
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