The VAR Thread

[Leachy]

Another ridiculous VAR handball and another VAR offside decision with our goal in the first 5 minutes.

I don't see how you you can be deemed to be gaining an advantage when you are 4 inches offside but over 50 yards from goal. Fortunately on this occasion did not effect the result. Still think they need to look at the offside. Maybe daylight between players outside the box and draw the lines inside the 18 yard box

 

[Marty]

Unfortunately the Red ones are all automatic penalties. per laws of the game.

The green (ball travels from close proximity) only comes into play if Hand/arm within body line as part of the subjective decision referee makes under those circumstances (he can still give penalties even if arm next to body)

It is an offence if a player:

• deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, including moving the hand/arm towards the ball
• scores in the opponents’ goal directly from their hand/arm, even if accidental, including by the goalkeeper
• after the ball has touched their or a team-mate’s hand/arm, even if accidental, immediately:
  • scores in the opponents’ goal
  • creates a goal-scoring opportunity
• touches the ball with their hand/arm when:
  • the hand/arm has made their body unnaturally bigger
  • the hand/arm is above/beyond their shoulder level (unless the player deliberately plays the ball which then touches their hand/arm

The above offences apply even if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm directly from the head or body (including the foot) of another player who is close.

Except for the above offences, it is not an offence if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm:

• directly from the player’s own head or body (including the foot)
• directly from the head or body (including the foot) of another player who is close
• if the hand/arm is close to the body and does not make the body unnaturally bigger
• when a player falls and the hand/arm is between the body and the ground to support the body, but not extended laterally or vertically away from the body

Have colour coded for red and green per your sheet and also bolded the relevant bits showing why 100% the Doherty incident was a penalty.

So what these rules say is that Gabriel's handball should have been a penalty because he made his body unnaturally bigger, even if he was on the borderline between red and green area of the arm? Or is that somehow OK?

Even looking at these rules and the picture of the red/green areas I'm still extremely confused.

 

[Trotter]

So what these rules say is that Gabriel's handball should have been a penalty because he made his body unnaturally bigger, even if he was on the borderline between red and green area of the arm? Or is that somehow OK?

Even looking at these rules and the picture of the red/green areas I'm still extremely confused.

I really think it hit Gabriel above the red/green line (on the white of Arsenal's sleeves), and so did the VAR (in fact just looked again, am convinced it is above the "T-Shirt line", that is only reason it would not have been given. If it hit him there it is not a foul of any description as considered part of his body.

 

[mr ashley]

Lots of very informative posts in response, so thank you.
I still have a problem with the way the law is selectively forensic (ie describing a natural position as one of standing still, when in fact the movements of a sportsman take so many varied natural positions that the context is totally removed.
Which ends up with the descriptors posted becoming almost irrelevant.
If you’re allowed to run, jump, hold off an opponent then these positions should be deemed ‘natural’ too.

This, along with the ridiculous offside law changes, give me no faith in the arbiters of the sport, as they are showing that they have absolutely zero understanding of the game.

 

[Who’s our next manager?]

Two hypothetical questions concerning the length of time between Doherty’s handball and the referee checking the monitor and giving a penalty.
Spurs played on ,attack the Saints goal.What if in that attack they scored.The ref then looks at the monitor,and gives Saints a penalty. What happens to the goal Spurs have just scored,after all the ref had not stopped play so the goal was scored in legitimate open play.
Secondly,what if,in that Spurs attack one of their players,already on a yellow card,committed another serious foul which merited a red card. The ref had decided to check the monitor over the handball so would the red card be legitimately given?
If a goal scored could not be given,logically neither should the red card.

 

[Trotter]

Two hypothetical questions concerning the length of time between Doherty’s handball and the referee checking the monitor and giving a penalty.
Spurs played on ,attack the Saints goal.What if in that attack they scored.The ref then looks at the monitor,and gives Saints a penalty. What happens to the goal Spurs have just scored,after all the ref had not stopped play so the goal was scored in legitimate open play.
Secondly,what if,in that Spurs attack one of their players,already on a yellow card,committed another serious foul which merited a red card. The ref had decided to check the monitor over the handball so would the red card be legitimately given?
If a goal scored could not be given,logically neither should the red card.

In your first scenario, the goal would be chalked off. The penalty as happening beforehand would take precedent.
In the second scenario the red/yellow card would still stand (otherwise you technically could have someone knowing that VAR would overturn a decision just punch someone knowing the referee could not do anything). In fact in an abandoned match, goals do not count on a players record, but all bookings/sendings off still do for example.

The reason it still takes a while, for what was a pretty easy decision (to give the handball) was they firstly have to wait for the feed from the TV companies, then check the offence (would have taken no time at all though, as was blatant) but then check all the relevant play beforehand to see if any prior offences (maybe close offside or another handball) leading up to that handball decision occured, also the ball must be out of play or in a neutral action because a promising attack should not be stopped just in case the referee does not overturn his previous decision.

 

[TheBlueRooster]

Two hypothetical questions concerning the length of time between Doherty’s handball and the referee checking the monitor and giving a penalty.
Spurs played on ,attack the Saints goal.What if in that attack they scored.The ref then looks at the monitor,and gives Saints a penalty. What happens to the goal Spurs have just scored,after all the ref had not stopped play so the goal was scored in legitimate open play.
Secondly,what if,in that Spurs attack one of their players,already on a yellow card,committed another serious foul which merited a red card. The ref had decided to check the monitor over the handball so would the red card be legitimately given?
If a goal scored could not be given,logically neither should the red card.

The penalty is given and everything just didn't happen.....unless a straight red card offence took place ie punching an opponent spitting at an opponent (or any one else on the field of play) basically violent conduct etc.

If I was still refereeing, at our level, that would not be a penalty. Doherty could do nothing to stop the ball hitting his arm. Saying that, in the referee's defence his arm is in an unnatural angle.

My personal opinion is unless the ball is goal bound and it is accidental no penalty. Accidental hand ball in the penalty area (with VAR) should be a direct free kick taken from anywhere on the penalty arc, or if requested a corner kick, decided prior to kick off, which would you prefer.

 

[Marty]

Another ridiculous VAR handball and another VAR offside decision with our goal in the first 5 minutes.

I don't see how you you can be deemed to be gaining an advantage when you are 4 inches offside but over 50 yards from goal. Fortunately on this occasion did not effect the result. Still think they need to look at the offside. Maybe daylight between players outside the box and draw the lines inside the 18 yard box

On offsides I agree with the rule as is. Offside is offside, period. Thankfully it looks like they've sped up the process so we get a decision quicker than last season.

Different offside laws depending on how close to goal you are is completely unenforceable.

 

[Cinemattis]

Quite an interesting read by former referee legend Keith Hackett in the Telegraph about last weekend´s penalties (Soton and Palace shouldn´t have been given):

Referees may have been told to ignore the handball law

Both Victor Lindelof and Matt Doherty were unjustly treated, presumably because PGMOL told officials to punish accidental handballs

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[ralphs bald spot]

On offsides I agree with the rule as is. Offside is offside, period. Thankfully it looks like they've sped up the process so we get a decision quicker than last season.

Different offside laws depending on how close to goal you are is completely unenforceable.

but its not though - the rule is a farce how can your shoulder be offside its not in the spirit of the game its ruining the spectacle its robbing the game of its spontainity and has it improved anything things are still subjective

var is made for television and adds nothing to the game in the ground and now you might as well forget about linesmen and the handball law jesus

 

[buckley]

I have not read all the post's but for me the most glaring error was the handball in the West Ham game that should have given West Ham a penalty . To not give that call makes me wonder who was in the VAR room making that no penalty decision .
I think we must be told who is giving the decisions in the VAR room so that you take away any accusations that the decision maker was in this case " A GOONER " . It will take away talk of previous errors in favour of one team or another because if the same man in the VAR room makes decisions favouring one side or another and has previous for doing so . He should not be allowed to mediate in games where his favoured team is playing .

 

[Mattspur]

I have not read all the post's but for me the most glaring error was the handball in the West Ham game that should have given West Ham a penalty . To not give that call makes me wonder who was in the VAR room making that no penalty decision .
I think we must be told who is giving the decisions in the VAR room so that you take away any accusations that the decision maker was in this case " A GOONER " . It will take away talk of previous errors in favour of one team or another because if the same man in the VAR room makes decisions favouring one side or another and has previous for doing so . He should not be allowed to mediate in games where his favoured team is playing .

I'm sure refs and VAR's aren't allowed to be involved in games with teams they support. However, are they allowed to ref the games of rivals of the teams they support? Or could they ref games which have an effect on their team? Could, for example, the VAR be a Millwall fan who thought there's no way he's giving a penalty for West Ham unless he absolutely has to. Does this sort of thing happen or are their safeguards to make sure it doesn't?

 

[LeSoupeKitchen]

Quite an interesting read by former referee legend Keith Hackett in the Telegraph about last weekend´s penalties (Soton and Palace shouldn´t have been given):

Referees may have been told to ignore the handball law

Both Victor Lindelof and Matt Doherty were unjustly treated, presumably because PGMOL told officials to punish accidental handballs

www.telegraph.co.uk

What does he think?

 

[Trotter]

What does he think?

To be honest Keith Hackett is 75 year old man, and has been out of the game for last 10 years back since Old Mother Riley took over his role at PGMOL quite acrimoniously.
Unfortunately (as he was very good referee in his time) he is not really relevant anymore and hasn't been in refereeing circles for many years, but still has a dwindling following on social media, often guiding them wrongly. However in this case he is just plain wrong, he is just not recognising the laws changed in July, and took effect from the start of this season.

 

['O Zio]

On offsides I agree with the rule as is. Offside is offside, period. Thankfully it looks like they've sped up the process so we get a decision quicker than last season.

Different offside laws depending on how close to goal you are is completely unenforceable.

Technically you're right, offside is offside, but there's a margin of error with the technology of above 30cm in some cases due to frame rates, judging when exactly to take the measurement from etc. That's the issue for me. If the technology is only accurate within 30cm then it how can they honestly say for certain that a given player is definitely offside in these cases where they're trying to measure for 2-3 minutes whether someone's nose hair was marginally offside or not? In those cases offside isn't offside because you're just guessing based on a picture that may or may not be accurate.

 

[Marty]

Ref Watch: John Egan red card and handball rule - Dermot Gallagher

Plus: Can Kieran Gibbs, Slaven Bilic and Yves Bissouma have any complaints for their red cards over the weekend?

www.skysports.com

Some actual interesting stuff from Dermot Gallagher here, on all of the weekend's situations. He also says that the ball hit Gabriel too high up on his arm to be an offence, so I'll let it lie and just say I disagree with the actual rule rather than the interpretation of it. This is what he says about the Doherty pen.

INCIDENT: Moussa Djenepo's pass ricochets off Harry Winks and strikes the arm of Matt Doherty, who is a matter of inches away from his team-mate. Referee David Coote points to the spot after looking on the pitchside monitor.

VERDICT: When you look at how the law is written, referees have been very consistent, but this is the one I was most uncomfortable with. I was uncomfortable for two reasons; the proximity is so close, and it strikes Winks' heels before going up to Doherty's arm. In fairness to Doherty, his arms are in front of him and not outstretched, so it could have gone up and hit him in the chest. So this is not a decision I can defend, Doherty was very unlucky.

 

[mr ashley]

Quite an interesting read by former referee legend Keith Hackett in the Telegraph about last weekend´s penalties (Soton and Palace shouldn´t have been given):

Referees may have been told to ignore the handball law

Both Victor Lindelof and Matt Doherty were unjustly treated, presumably because PGMOL told officials to punish accidental handballs

www.telegraph.co.uk

It’s behind a paywall so can’t read.
any way of posting the article (without breaching copyright etc)?

 

[mr ashley]

Technically you're right, offside is offside, but there's a margin of error with the technology of above 30cm in some cases due to frame rates, judging when exactly to take the measurement from etc. That's the issue for me. If the technology is only accurate within 30cm then it how can they honestly say for certain that a given player is definitely offside in these cases where they're trying to measure for 2-3 minutes whether someone's nose hair was marginally offside or not? In those cases offside isn't offside because you're just guessing based on a picture that may or may not be accurate.

So I noticed another point of clarification in the Southampton game.
At one point in the second half, Son was given offside close to the half way line (as we know Southampton had a high line, which we took advantage of).
anyway, at the paused frame, Son was not only marginally offside, but also only marginally in their half. Of course his body was leaning forwards in the direction he was running, but if his foot was touching the halfway line, would that mean he was in his own half (and therefore not offside)?
Would the technology assess this in the same detail? Or would it also judge that as he was leaning, his upper body was in the opposition half?

Sorry I don’t have any still images to illustrate my point, but hopefully those with a greater detailed understanding of the minutiae of the offside law could clarify?

 

[mr ashley]

Ref Watch: John Egan red card and handball rule - Dermot Gallagher

Plus: Can Kieran Gibbs, Slaven Bilic and Yves Bissouma have any complaints for their red cards over the weekend?

www.skysports.com

Some actual interesting stuff from Dermot Gallagher here, on all of the weekend's situations. He also says that the ball hit Gabriel too high up on his arm to be an offence, so I'll let it lie and just say I disagree with the actual rule rather than the interpretation of it. This is what he says about the Doherty pen.

INCIDENT: Moussa Djenepo's pass ricochets off Harry Winks and strikes the arm of Matt Doherty, who is a matter of inches away from his team-mate. Referee David Coote points to the spot after looking on the pitchside monitor.

VERDICT: When you look at how the law is written, referees have been very consistent, but this is the one I was most uncomfortable with. I was uncomfortable for two reasons; the proximity is so close, and it strikes Winks' heels before going up to Doherty's arm. In fairness to Doherty, his arms are in front of him and not outstretched, so it could have gone up and hit him in the chest. So this is not a decision I can defend, Doherty was very unlucky.

This is exactly the problem.
Two former referees are now very clear that they do not agree with the current wording of the laws, and also have observed incorrect applications.
The only stakeholders comfortable with the laws are IFab and PGMOL (not players, coaches, fans)

The laws have been modified to reduce cheating / gamesmanship (as I understand it), but now attacking play (and fair defending) is also being penalised.
No wonder everyone is complaining about it

 

[mr ashley]

I really think it hit Gabriel above the red/green line (on the white of Arsenal's sleeves), and so did the VAR (in fact just looked again, am convinced it is above the "T-Shirt line", that is only reason it would not have been given. If it hit him there it is not a foul of any description as considered part of his body.

Question.

How accurately will VAR/ on pitch referees be able to decide where the t shirt line is on a long sleeved shirt?
What about undershirts ( which are obliged to be the same colour)?
What if the players arm is bent- will the cameras be able to zoom in close enough to distinguish the point of contact?

Do Fifa need to stipulate that all shirt designs have a vivid stripe on the arm at a specific point to aid the decision (going forward)?

Sorry might be being pedantic but again I see how these technicalities are still open to (Arsenal-favouring!) interpretations