The Game Is About Glory

[Sevens]

I was at the debacle that was the Palace game and came out of there bitterly disappointed and rather angry. Poch’s comments after the game only made me more annoyed and frustrated. After a day’s reflection I am now just feel sad at the state of the game and how completely out of touch Managers and Players are with the fans. You’ll notice I didn’t mention owners and that is because, for the bigger clubs at least, the owners have been out of touch with the fans for as long as I can remember.

This isn’t a Poch or ENIC rant. Let me be clear in saying that I don’t want Poch or ENIC gone, but let’s face it. The chances of us ever winning a trophy with them at the helm are slim to none.

I can’t pretend I don’t get the disdain Pochettino holds for the domestic cups. We’ve known for years that it is all about money. It is all about Champion’s League football. When we last won a trophy all it effectively did was put our players in the shop window. I agree with Poch that the benefits of winning a domestic cup aren’t financially rewarding and outside of the winning club’s own fans they aren’t glorious achievements either. From a Manager’s perspective winning a domestic cup isn’t a guarantee of not getting the boot if you fail to get into the Champion’s League. Football has gone so bonkers that you can win the league with Leicester and then get sacked the following season. That lot over the road fired their long-term manager the moment he failed to get them top four, despite him winning a load of FA Cups and never failing to qualify for the Champion’s League before.

The League Cup never held much prestige but the FA Cup certainly did. That’s gone now, for several reasons. The arrival of the Premier League, playing semi finals at Wembley, the demise of the Cup Winners Cup (meaning the reward of the FA Cup, other than the glory of winning it, was no different to winning the League Cup) and a spate of doubles.

For me personally the FA Cup lost its magic the year Man Utd, the holders if I recall correctly, decided not to bother entering it. Then you had mid-table Premier League clubs fielding weakened teams because the FA Cup was deemed an unnecessary distraction that could potentially lead from going from mid-table safety to a Premier League relegation dogfight.

As the FA Cup’s magic has waned some younger fans don’t look at it as something worth winning or particularly glorious. Some of those young fans go on to become professional footballers who don’t see it as anything special and that is just domestic players. Foreign players don’t see it like Ossie did all them years ago. They don’t give a toss about it either and neither do foreign managers.

Do fans care about winning trophies? Realistically, unless you’re a glory hunter or lucky to live locally to a consistently successful club, a lot of fans will spend most of their life supporting a club that won’t win many trophies or ever compete for a League title. With that in mind, is Pochettino right? In my opinion no. I think it merely demonstrates he is another product of the footballing machine that doesn’t understand what keeps it alive. The fans.

Supporting a football club, especially one like Spurs, isn’t rational. Ultimately what entertains a person is entirely subjective but that is why we watch football. It’s not about winning, it’s about entertainment. For a lot of fans part of that entertainment is the banter between rival sets of fans. For some it is winning trophies. For some it is their definition of beautiful football etc. For most of us football is tribal. That tribalism entertains us. Whether it be our own success or finding amusement in the failure of others.

I can only speak for myself but when I look back at those seminal moments of being a Spurs fan aren’t just winning trophies but certainly some great results and performances have gone on to be tainted by failing to go all the way. Let me give some examples.

Winning the FA Cup in 1981 was magical. Two hard fought games with the second one being especially entertaining. Now think of 1982 and hardly anyone talks about it. Speaking for myself, winning it in 1982 was a relief by the end. It was a grind. The outcome was the same, FA Cup winners, but the emotion behind it was very different.

Fast forward to 1991 and the glory for me wasn’t beating Forest in the final, it was beating Arsenal in the semis. Had we gone on to lose the final then that semi would’ve been tainted and not worth as much, but we didn’t. We went on to win and that elevated the Arsenal win even more.

The 1999 League Cup win was dull. Like 1982 for me it was a relief we won it rather than any kind exultation. What I remember more passionately is the run of games to get there, beating Liverpool and Man Utd.

The 2008 League Cup win was special. Not just because we won it. But because who we beat in the final, how we beat them and also how we made it through the semis in such style.

There have been some great League games but ultimately because they failed to amount to a title they just don’t hold the same weight in my heart. The exception to this would be the run in to the end of the 09/10 season and beating Man City to qualify for the Champions League. It wasn’t just the City game thought, it was a cumulation of beating City, Chelsea and Arsenal in that run in.

I’ve enjoyed many of our Champions League games but for me personally the above positive examples trump them comfortably. From a footballing fan’s perspective it is not just about the Champions League. In 20 years time when I think back fondly of my key Spurs memories, it will either be winning finals or the matches that saw us get to the final. The 2008 League Cup win over Chelsea means more than beating Real Madrid in a group stage game of the Champions League. It does for me anyway.

If winning a trophy is just an ego thing and doesn’t take the club to the next level (and what is the next level? Does winning the league but not winning the Champions League count?) then why bother competing at all? It is like when he came out and send finishing above Arsenal in the league doesn’t matter. Thousands of fans turn up week in, week out to support the club. It is insulting to those fans to basically come out and state that what you’re turning up to support does not matter. It does matter. If it doesn't matter then why bother travelling to go and watch the team in Cup games? And from what I've witnessed in this world there are very few successful top sportsman that don't have a massive ego. Poch may struggle to manage those types of players but that ego and arrogance is often what elevates one sportsman above another. Confidence in sport is an amazing thing.

You lose in a cup game and you’re done. It’s over. You lose in the league then usually you have time to recover. Where you get one of those tough runs between cups and league, I get it. But sooner or later you will face weaker teams. Rest players for league games. A Spurs team without one or two key players (who are likely to be on the bench anyway) should have more than enough firepower to see off most Premier League clubs at home. Choose those games to rest players. I remember a few years ago where he effectively threw a game against Borussia Dortmund, in the Europa League, because we were going for the title. If we had to play a top team the weekend after the tie I could get that. But we were playing Bournemouth, a team that we should be comfortably beating even if we rest three or four players after a tough midweek European game.

My final comment is that what I find even more bizarre is that we don’t even throw away these competitions. It is like we aren’t that interested in winning them and yet still pay lip service to them by playing a portion of our first team squad. We get to a final would he play Lloris? No. But he’ll play Kane. I mean seriously, why risk Kane against Tranmere?!

I’ve resigned myself to the fact that unless the cards fall in our favour our chances of winning a trophy under Poch are slim to none. That knowledge takes a shine off any excellent individual result or performance we put in.

The game is all about glory? Only for the fans unfortunately.

 

[vegassd]

I applaud your effort mate but we don't need to create new threads every day to run over the same ground. You could have posted this in the Poch thread and it would have been brilliantly refreshing. Instead this is going to turn into an ENIC debate by page 2 and get locked.

The Kane against Tranmere thing has been done fairly extensively as well.

 

[JimmyG2]

Well written
interesting and informative.
I don't agree with your basic premise
so I'm out.

 

[SpartanSpur]

Good piece, but not quite sure I agree. I was gutted after the game - really wanted another crack at a final this season after Thurs - but I'm just not feeling the anger towards his 'ego' comments.

Had we had a fully fit squad I'm sure Poch would have played a stronger team than he did on Sunday. He does want to win every competition he's in, he's said that numerous times. He doesn't want to settle for a domestic cup though, he wants to make us genuine contenders in the PL and Europe over a sustained period. Achieve that and we'll probably get the odd cup or two as a byproduct. To do so CL income is going to be absolutely vital. Poch isn't just 'settling' for top 4 so he keeps his job and earn his bonus, it's all part of a long game to try and get some real glory. That's where he's coming from.

Now I guess the anger at this Cup exit is framed in how much faith you have in Poch taking us to that promised land. Personally I have a lot of faith in Poch, my concern is the club giving him enough of a hand in the transfer market to facilitate this. Currently I have almost zero confidence in that.

 

[rez9000]

I have a friend, Steve, who wants to be a writer. He's incredibly clever, witty, and head and shoulders above anyone else, the funniest person I have the privilege of knowing.

And he's a workhorse. He will sit and write and write for hours on end sometimes, never seemingly running out of energy. And once he's done he'll give some of his stuff to us, his friends, to read. And... his writing has a lot of holes. There's some really great stuff intermingled with a lot of faulty material.

Why? Because once he's done his first draft, that's it for him. He'll never revisit the piece again (actually, I think he's done it once and that was only because he co-wrote it with someone else who insisted). He won't even proof read beyond a quick scan. He doesn't craft anything. So what he ends up with is a lot of dross, with a few nuggets of brilliance buried in it.

And has he had anything published or produced? No. Why? Because he doesn't edit, he doesn't hone, he doesn't craft. He doesn't consider writing to be a process, or dare I say it, a project? He thinks that one outpouring of effort is enough. And though it pains me to say it, I don't think he'll ever find success as a writer, because his stuff will always be unrefined.

Why am telling you all this? Because what is happening at Spurs is similar. We are honing, we are in the middle of a process. There is a start and a finish. But in the same way that Steve can't just make one effort and expect that to bring sustained success, nor can we expect to go all in for one trophy and then expect everything to be fine.

Yes, there would no doubt be advantages in winning something (and God knows how I ache to see us lift a trophy again), but at this point, it would only be an event in a different process. Let's look again at Steve: if he were to get one thing published, that doesn't mean anything else he produces will be because he still hasn't sorted out the main reason he doesn't get published all the time - that his stuff is unfinished. And the same is true of us were we to win a trophy. It would be sweet, it would be glorious, but it won't automatically lead to more success.

Apologies for putting it like this, but the Blanchflower quote is actually out of context. What Danny was saying was more about the style of football Spurs played, not their winning of trophies. As I'm sure you know, the full quote reads, "The game is about glory. it is about doing things in style and with a flourish, about going out and beating the other lot, not waiting for them to die of boredom".

You could quote Bill Nicholson, who said, "If you don't win anything, you've had a bad season". But he said that at a time where we were the dominant force in English football. We were kings. But we're kings no longer. To be kings today, you need to feed the beast that is modern football. And we can't feed the beast properly yet. So we need to build. We build so that we can feed the beast and be kings again. Winning a trophy today would be sweet, would be great, but it would still only makes us pretenders.

 

[longtimespur]

That's a really good analogy, can't fault the premise at all.
Totally agree as well, we are where we are in our journey, some want to be at the end without the effort and care taken to get there.
Me I'm old school and don't expect miracles to happen they are things we have to work hard to attain.

 

[jonnyrotten]

The *business* is about *profit*

 

[Nerine]

I was thinking about this just now.
"The game is about glory"

Would you swap the last five seasons with Leicester?

I don't think I would, to be honest. Back in mid table with nothing to play for nearly every year. Doesn't seem like much fun to me, title win or not.
I'd rather see us play in the CL every year and challenge for the title if not necessarily win it.

I think our time will come, though.
The foundations of our club are now too strong for it to become a failure IMO.

I think we can agree that the TV money bubble will at some stage, burst. Man City and Chelsea owners might not be in possession of those clubs in a few years time. What happens when they pull the plug?

When ENIC eventually sell up, we are a very attractive proposition for anyone looking to buy a club. All the work has been done. Work that means we don't have to rely on sugar-daddies and TV money to be competitive.

Ok, we might be "one step back" at the min, but Jesus, we took three bloody great strides forward before that. And we will do again.

Patience.

It's a project. Let's enjoy the ride rather than acting like fucking spoilt brats.

 

[double0]

Glory just doesn’t happen by chance or luck. A solid foundation lots of hard work planning and dedication are exercised before you reap the glory. Pochettino is that man , he’s incrementally changing the mind set of our club.

 

[Sevens]

I applaud your effort mate but we don't need to create new threads every day to run over the same ground. You could have posted this in the Poch thread and it would have been brilliantly refreshing. Instead this is going to turn into an ENIC debate by page 2 and get locked.

The Kane against Tranmere thing has been done fairly extensively as well.

I take your point and a mod can move it if they desire. But it's not a post about Poch, it's not a post about ENIC. It's a post about the state of football, it's a state questioning was is success and glory.

 

[Sevens]

Good piece, but not quite sure I agree. I was gutted after the game - really wanted another crack at a final this season after Thurs - but I'm just not feeling the anger towards his 'ego' comments.

Had we had a fully fit squad I'm sure Poch would have played a stronger team than he did on Sunday. He does want to win every competition he's in, he's said that numerous times. He doesn't want to settle for a domestic cup though, he wants to make us genuine contenders in the PL and Europe over a sustained period. Achieve that and we'll probably get the odd cup or two as a byproduct. To do so CL income is going to be absolutely vital. Poch isn't just 'settling' for top 4 so he keeps his job and earn his bonus, it's all part of a long game to try and get some real glory. That's where he's coming from.

Now I guess the anger at this Cup exit is framed in how much faith you have in Poch taking us to that promised land. Personally I have a lot of faith in Poch, my concern is the club giving him enough of a hand in the transfer market to facilitate this. Currently I have almost zero confidence in that.

I'm sure he does. But actions speak louder than words. Maybe it is a limitation of the manager that he doesn't seem to get his squad rotation right when it comes to "weaker" opponents in the Premier League or that his in game management means that Spurs players are subbed less often than any other club in the League, irrespective of the Spurs score at the time.

It's clear that Poch doesn't really care about the domestic cups. It's clear that he has been told from up high that they don't matter. It's also clear that the clubs owners are delighted with us continually getting top four and the safety of that money is more important than risking a little to try and win the league.

I'm in my mid forties. I don't know how long I'll live for but for the first time in my life I am seriously starting to believe that I may not see Spurs lift another trophy in my lifetime.

 

[Sevens]

I was thinking about this just now.
"The game is about glory"

Would you swap the last five seasons with Leicester?

I don't think I would, to be honest. Back in mid table with nothing to play for nearly every year. Doesn't seem like much fun to me, title win or not.
I'd rather see us play in the CL every year and challenge for the title if not necessarily win it.

I think our time will come, though.
The foundations of our club are now too strong for it to become a failure IMO.

I think we can agree that the TV money bubble will at some stage, burst. Man City and Chelsea owners might not be in possession of those clubs in a few years time. What happens when they pull the plug?

When ENIC eventually sell up, we are a very attractive proposition for anyone looking to buy a club. All the work has been done. Work that means we don't have to rely on sugar-daddies and TV money to be competitive.

Ok, we might be "one step back" at the min, but Jesus, we took three bloody great strides forward before that. And we will do again.

Patience.

It's a project. Let's enjoy the ride rather than acting like fucking spoilt brats.

That's a great question. I think the answer is, it depends on the next five years. Let's put it this way. The last time we seriously challenged for the title was 84/85. We should have won the league that year. Even the season Leicester won the title we were always chasing. We were often brilliant in 84/85. We also had other great league seasons around that era. 86/87, 89/90. What was better, winning the FA Cup in 82 or those three seasons?

And I wish people would stop calling football a fucking project. It's not. A project is a temporary organisation (usually within an existing organisation) set up to achieve a specific goal. Spurs are not a temporary organisation. The stadium build is a project. Running the team is BAU. Always. Irrespective of staff changes, culture changes etc.

 

[scat1620]

Would you swap the last five seasons with Leicester?

I absolutely would, in a heartbeat. And then I'd go ahead and make the same choice every day for the rest of my life. To win the League title? I'd sacrifice a lot, lot MORE than having the same last 5 seasons as Leicester just to win it once.

I'm in my 30s and I don't truly believe in my heart that I'll ever live to see us win the League. The last time we did was a good deal longer than my lifetime ago, so I have no realistic expectation that we'll do it before I die. A single bird in the hand would be much better for me than 50 in the bush if we're not going to get to that glorious future while I'm on the earth. I'm not immortal, I would prefer Spurs to be fleetingly successful while I'm here to see it rather than eternally successful starting many decades into the future.

Let's enjoy the ride rather than acting like fucking spoilt brats.

Not a big fan of this as a closing sentence, given that you seem to be implying that people who don't agree with your take are acting like spoiled brats. You can agree to disagree without chucking the insult in there.

 

[Sevens]

I have a friend, Steve, who wants to be a writer. He's incredibly clever, witty, and head and shoulders above anyone else, the funniest person I have the privilege of knowing.

And he's a workhorse. He will sit and write and write for hours on end sometimes, never seemingly running out of energy. And once he's done he'll give some of his stuff to us, his friends, to read. And... his writing has a lot of holes. There's some really great stuff intermingled with a lot of faulty material.

Why? Because once he's done his first draft, that's it for him. He'll never revisit the piece again (actually, I think he's done it once and that was only because he co-wrote it with someone else who insisted). He won't even proof read beyond a quick scan. He doesn't craft anything. So what he ends up with is a lot of dross, with a few nuggets of brilliance buried in it.

And has he had anything published or produced? No. Why? Because he doesn't edit, he doesn't hone, he doesn't craft. He doesn't consider writing to be a process, or dare I say it, a project? He thinks that one outpouring of effort is enough. And though it pains me to say it, I don't think he'll ever find success as a writer, because his stuff will always be unrefined.

Why am telling you all this? Because what is happening at Spurs is similar. We are honing, we are in the middle of a process. There is a start and a finish. But in the same way that Steve can't just make one effort and expect that to bring sustained success, nor can we expect to go all in for one trophy and then expect everything to be fine.

Yes, there would no doubt be advantages in winning something (and God knows how I ache to see us lift a trophy again), but at this point, it would only be an event in a different process. Let's look again at Steve: if he were to get one thing published, that doesn't mean anything else he produces will be because he still hasn't sorted out the main reason he doesn't get published all the time - that his stuff is unfinished. And the same is true of us were we to win a trophy. It would be sweet, it would be glorious, but it won't automatically lead to more success.

Apologies for putting it like this, but the Blanchflower quote is actually out of context. What Danny was saying was more about the style of football Spurs played, not their winning of trophies. As I'm sure you know, the full quote reads, "The game is about glory. it is about doing things in style and with a flourish, about going out and beating the other lot, not waiting for them to die of boredom".

You could quote Bill Nicholson, who said, "If you don't win anything, you've had a bad season". But he said that at a time where we were the dominant force in English football. We were kings. But we're kings no longer. To be kings today, you need to feed the beast that is modern football. And we can't feed the beast properly yet. So we need to build. We build so that we can feed the beast and be kings again. Winning a trophy today would be sweet, would be great, but it would still only makes us pretenders.

That's the problem. There isn't a start and finish. Football is a cycle. It's not a project where you close down the project once the project aims have been achieved. We've had a mini golden era in recent years (before Poch too, it started with Jol). We are back to where we belong. People forget that after the 90's. The anomaly isn't us being competitive as a top four challenging side. The anomaly was us being so shit for a few years. Now we are back where our fanbase size and financial might should have us. Top six, taking advantage of other clubs when they aren't playing so well and them taking advantage of us when we aren't playing so well.

Poch inherited a great team. Yes they under performed the season before but we still finished 6th. It wasn't a bunch of duffers. He then built on that inherited team and made it even better. But ultimately the greatness has come from two sources. Kane and Eriksen. I've said time and time again that Eriksen is the key for us. When he plays well, we play well. When he doesn't play well, we struggle. If Eriksen leaves this Summer then that "finish" you are talking about may well be the end of this season.

The last two or three years may be as good as it gets. In fact, I'm pretty convinced of that already. The League has been in a strange state of flux for the last few seasons. Very much akin to the late 80s / early 90s. I think we are on the cusp of a new era. Man Utd can't keep under performing forever with their resources. This season Liverpool have absolutely blasted past us and it doesn't look like we'll be catching them anytime soon. Man City are going to be pretty pissed off if they fail to win it this year. That leaves the London clubs scrabbling for that 4th spot.

 

[Nerine]

I absolutely would, in a heartbeat. And then I'd go ahead and make the same choice every day for the rest of my life. To win the League title? I'd sacrifice a lot, lot MORE than having the same last 5 seasons as Leicester just to win it once.

I'm in my 30s and I don't truly believe in my heart that I'll ever live to see us win the League. The last time we did was a good deal longer than my lifetime ago, so I have no realistic expectation that we'll do it before I die. A single bird in the hand would be much better for me than 50 in the bush if we're not going to get to that glorious future while I'm on the earth. I'm not immortal, I would prefer Spurs to be fleetingly successful while I'm here to see it rather than eternally successful starting many decades into the future.



Not a big fan of this as a closing sentence, given that you seem to be implying that people who don't agree with your take are acting like spoiled brats. You can agree to disagree without chucking the insult in there.

I'm not referring to people disagreeing with what I said. People can think what they like.

I'm talking about some of the compete drivel and vitriol you see in the ITK and Match Threads.

Our situation is viewed overly dimly by some of our fan base and they moan when we can't have this or do that or sign x or whatever.
Some of the comments are terrible. Very spoilt and very brattish. I don't think you can disagree with that.

I wasn't referring to anyone in this thread at all.

 

[scat1620]

I'm not referring to people disagreeing with what I said. People can think what they like.

I'm talking about some of the compete drivel and vitriol you see in the ITK and Match Threads.

Our situation is viewed overly dimly by some of our fan base and they moan when we can't have this or do that or sign x or whatever.
Some of the comments are terrible. Very spoilt and very brattish. I don't think you can disagree with that.

I wasn't referring to anyone in this thread at all.

Well in that case I don't know why you brought that point up in this thread at all. IMO your post would have worked a lot better just finishing on, "Let's enjoy the ride".

 

[Gassin's finest]

Well that was pretty fucking glorious...

 

[rez9000]

That's the problem. There isn't a start and finish. Football is a cycle. It's not a project where you close down the project once the project aims have been achieved. We've had a mini golden era in recent years (before Poch too, it started with Jol). We are back to where we belong. People forget that after the 90's. The anomaly isn't us being competitive as a top four challenging side. The anomaly was us being so shit for a few years. Now we are back where our fanbase size and financial might should have us. Top six, taking advantage of other clubs when they aren't playing so well and them taking advantage of us when we aren't playing so well.

Poch inherited a great team. Yes they under performed the season before but we still finished 6th. It wasn't a bunch of duffers. He then built on that inherited team and made it even better. But ultimately the greatness has come from two sources. Kane and Eriksen. I've said time and time again that Eriksen is the key for us. When he plays well, we play well. When he doesn't play well, we struggle. If Eriksen leaves this Summer then that "finish" you are talking about may well be the end of this season.

The last two or three years may be as good as it gets. In fact, I'm pretty convinced of that already. The League has been in a strange state of flux for the last few seasons. Very much akin to the late 80s / early 90s. I think we are on the cusp of a new era. Man Utd can't keep under performing forever with their resources. This season Liverpool have absolutely blasted past us and it doesn't look like we'll be catching them anytime soon. Man City are going to be pretty pissed off if they fail to win it this year. That leaves the London clubs scrabbling for that 4th spot.

You've just argued yourself out of your own point, there. If football is cyclical (which it is), then by your own lights, there's no reason to do anything - eventually it'll all come round again.

However, just because something is cyclical, doesn't mean you don't set objectives along the curve.

And beyond that, my point is that there are longer-term objectives at work here that will not be affected by us being glorious at some point before we reach it. Winning a trophy will not positively affect the thing under construction at the moment and may even have negative effects if that objective is added.

And with your point about Eriksen, you've also undermined your own point. If football is cyclical, then the loss of one player is not the be-all and end-all of things. When Berbatov left, people said it was the end of everything. When Carrick left, people said it was the end of everything. When Bale left, when Modric left, etc. etc. etc.

As @vegassd pointed out earlier in the thread, what you've posted (eloquent though it certainly was) is not a new view and has been echoed many a time on this forum. The underlying position is one in which we look at where we are now and say we should be winning trophies. But all too often that's sparked by us crashing out of a competition. And that's to be expected because football is emotive.

As I've outlined elsewhere, we have a very potent combination of emotional drivers at the moment as Spurs fans right now. It's a cocktail of anticipation fuelled by our increasing stronger performances in the league, frequent dismay over missing out on a trophy or after a bad result (I note that you posted your reply at half-time tonight when we were 1-0 down), with a good measure of pessimism from the number of false dawns we've experienced or when star players have departed (I draw your attention to your rather apocalyptic analysis of the potential loss of Eriksen).

I sympathise with all those feelings, because I feel them all as well. I do have a keen sense of anticipation over the future, and I do feel dismay and disappointment when we've been knocked out of the cups, and I've seen more false dawns and star departures than most people have had hot dinners. But none of those things are going to magically disappear if we win a solitary trophy.

As I said, there are advantages to winning one, but none of those advantages will directly feed into the objectives the club has set for the foreseeable future. Now, I readily concede that nothing is certain. We may travel this line for the next few years and find, at the end, that it brings us nothing. There are no guarantees. Other than this one: going all out for a trophy and lifting one will not bring long-term sustained success. Long-term sustained success will bring us trophies. And that takes time, purely because of the nature of football as it is today. This isn't the 60s, nor the 80s. For better or worse, football is a business and the only way a business succeeds is by being business-like. In the current circumstances, there is no other way.

 

[Sevens]

You've just argued yourself out of your own point, there. If football is cyclical (which it is), then by your own lights, there's no reason to do anything - eventually it'll all come round again.

However, just because something is cyclical, doesn't mean you don't set objectives along the curve.

And beyond that, my point is that there are longer-term objectives at work here that will not be affected by us being glorious at some point before we reach it. Winning a trophy will not positively affect the thing under construction at the moment and may even have negative effects if that objective is added.

And with your point about Eriksen, you've also undermined your own point. If football is cyclical, then the loss of one player is not the be-all and end-all of things. When Berbatov left, people said it was the end of everything. When Carrick left, people said it was the end of everything. When Bale left, when Modric left, etc. etc. etc.

As @vegassd pointed out earlier in the thread, what you've posted (eloquent though it certainly was) is not a new view and has been echoed many a time on this forum. The underlying position is one in which we look at where we are now and say we should be winning trophies. But all too often that's sparked by us crashing out of a competition. And that's to be expected because football is emotive.

As I've outlined elsewhere, we have a very potent combination of emotional drivers at the moment as Spurs fans right now. It's a cocktail of anticipation fuelled by our increasing stronger performances in the league, frequent dismay over missing out on a trophy or after a bad result (I note that you posted your reply at half-time tonight when we were 1-0 down), with a good measure of pessimism from the number of false dawns we've experienced or when star players have departed (I draw your attention to your rather apocalyptic analysis of the potential loss of Eriksen).

I sympathise with all those feelings, because I feel them all as well. I do have a keen sense of anticipation over the future, and I do feel dismay and disappointment when we've been knocked out of the cups, and I've seen more false dawns and star departures than most people have had hot dinners. But none of those things are going to magically disappear if we win a solitary trophy.

As I said, there are advantages to winning one, but none of those advantages will directly feed into the objectives the club has set for the foreseeable future. Now, I readily concede that nothing is certain. We may travel this line for the next few years and find, at the end, that it brings us nothing. There are no guarantees. Other than this one: going all out for a trophy and lifting one will not bring long-term sustained success. Long-term sustained success will bring us trophies. And that takes time, purely because of the nature of football as it is today. This isn't the 60s, nor the 80s. For better or worse, football is a business and the only way a business succeeds is by being business-like. In the current circumstances, there is no other way.

Apologies, rushed my post as I watching the game at the same time. Cyclical as in BAU activities.

What do you think the objectives of the club are? Poch has said that finishing above our rivals doesn't matter, winning trophies doesn't matter (other than for the ego). Makes me wonder what Poch thinks DOES matter. Winning the Champion's League? So winning the Premier League doesn't matter and is nothing more than an ego boost, so 4th is as good as 1st?

 

[rez9000]

Apologies, rushed my post as I watching the game at the same time. Cyclical as in BAU activities.

What do you think the objectives of the club are? Poch has said that finishing above our rivals doesn't matter, winning trophies doesn't matter (other than for the ego). Makes me wonder what Poch thinks DOES matter. Winning the Champion's League? So winning the Premier League doesn't matter and is nothing more than an ego boost, so 4th is as good as 1st?

From what I gather, the plan has been along the lines of:

Build new training facilities
Build a new stadium

The stadium will be used both as an increased revenue stream in and of itself, but also to build the Spurs brand more widely around the world, which in turn generates revenue. This increased revenue is used to bring in the resources needed to challenge on four fronts on a regular basis. Buying the elite players with big names will also feed into the development of the brand, to sustain that increased revenue. It is basically trying to do what clubs like Real and Barca currently have - enormous presence around the world, which allows them to buy the big players and win trophies and maintain their fame, thus generating the money to buy the big names, win trophies and maintain their fame, and on and on and on.

Now, there is an argument that all of this tarnishes the purity of the game. There's certainly much grist for the mill when it comes to that debate. But whatever one's view of it is, we can't deny what the state of football actually is. That, at present, it is a business. That may change in the future or it may not, but today it is what it is. And so we have to play the game as it is, which is to treat it as a business.