The England Thread

[HildoSpur]

I've said it before but I don't think this England team will win anything because there isn't enough quality in central midfield and in central defence. You can change the manager all you want but you just don't have the quality in those positions and they are pretty vital against the really good teams. Very good in attacking areas of course which should see them through many of the average sides and get them to a quarter or semi-final but I just don't see them going the next step.

 

[Thenewcat]

I've said it before but I don't think this England team will win anything because there isn't enough quality in central midfield and in central defence. You can change the manager all you want but you just don't have the quality in those positions and they are pretty vital against the really good teams. Very good in attacking areas of course which should see them through many of the average sides and get them to a quarter or semi-final but I just don't see them going the next step.

Not enough quality in central midfield? Rice/Bellingham is better than anyone we will play this summer, and we have loads of options on who the 3rd should be. Yes central defence isn’t great, but no one else is complete either.

I know Kane and Saka were missing, but it’s actually quite hard to make a team with the attacking talent we had on the pitch yesterday look quite so toothless against an inexperienced defence for a country who have been in rubbish form. Southgate is a rubbish tactical manager. That is why we tend to lose to the first good team we face

 

[Thenewcat]

Oh I completely agree that he could do better.
he plays a conservative style and relies on players who are his favourites despite being out of form.

I guess my point was that his record in tournaments is actually better than venables and robson, who we all look back on fondly.
He’s not free from criticism by any means, but we’ve progressed from the time under Sven etc massively.

I’m clearly not comparing him to Ramsey anyway.
im comparing him to all the other managers since.

But context is everything. With the squad Southgate has, the expectation is higher. So yeah, Southgate has done a better job than Roy Hodgson, but go and look at those squads from 2012 and 2014. Even the golden generation was a collection of talent lacking cohesion and lacking elite forwards.

You can only judge people based on the opportunities they are given. Southgate initially did very well (creating a genuine team atmosphere and getting a not that good squad to the semis in 2018) but as the players available to him have improved his managerial approach has not

 

[dontcallme]

I've said it before but I don't think this England team will win anything because there isn't enough quality in central midfield and in central defence. You can change the manager all you want but you just don't have the quality in those positions and they are pretty vital against the really good teams. Very good in attacking areas of course which should see them through many of the average sides and get them to a quarter or semi-final but I just don't see them going the next step.

I don’t agree that our central midfield is weak.

Keeper and entire back line isn’t top quality though.

 

[McFlash]

I don’t agree that our central midfield is weak.

Keeper and entire back line isn’t top quality though.

And that's part of what annoying me with Southgate, he's not playing to the obvious strengths.
Apart from Walker and Stones, our defenders are pretty crap or unreliable, so why not try the likes of Tomori and Branthwaite instead of persisting with Maguire or playing Dunk.
That's not planning for the future at all and friendlies are the time to give the youngsters a chance because he can't do it in a tournament.

We're stuck with Pickford because I don't think there are any better options but the others need to be replaced.

 

[Shanks]

And that's part of what annoying me with Southgate, he's not playing to the obvious strengths.
Apart from Walker and Stones, our defenders are pretty crap or unreliable, so why not try the likes of Tomori and Branthwaite instead of persisting with Maguire or playing Dunk.
That's not planning for the future at all and friendlies are the time to give the youngsters a chance because he can't do it in a tournament.

We're stuck with Pickford because I don't think there are any better options but the others need to be replaced.

This, although pickford aint as bad as peopke make out, a back three featuring stones and walker is actually bloody strong too, remaining position uo for grabs but there is quality above mcguire.

But the problem is, southgate aint got a clue how to use his best playwrs.

Walker, stones, rice, foden, bellingham, kane are some of the best players in the world in their positions - thats 6 out of 11 starters, throw in players like grealish, maddision, saka, only need another 2 and get them playing to their strengths, its gopd enougg to win everything in my opinion.

The only reason we wont win, is because of southgate, nothing else sadly.

 

[HildoSpur]

Not enough quality in central midfield? Rice/Bellingham is better than anyone we will play this summer, and we have loads of options on who the 3rd should be. Yes central defence isn’t great, but no one else is complete either.

I know Kane and Saka were missing, but it’s actually quite hard to make a team with the attacking talent we had on the pitch yesterday look quite so toothless against an inexperienced defence for a country who have been in rubbish form. Southgate is a rubbish tactical manager. That is why we tend to lose to the first good team we face

Bellingham isnt a central midfielder mate. You got Rice and nobody else really.

 

[McFlash]

This, although pickford aint as bad as peopke make out, a back three featuring stones and walker is actually bloody strong too, remaining position uo for grabs but there is quality above mcguire.

But the problem is, southgate aint got a clue how to use his best playwrs.

Walker, stones, rice, foden, bellingham, kane are some of the best players in the world in their positions - thats 6 out of 11 starters, throw in players like grealish, maddision, saka, only need another 2 and get them playing to their strengths, its gopd enougg to win everything in my opinion.

The only reason we wont win, is because of southgate, nothing else sadly.

I couldn't agree more.
We've got some amazing talent available but Southgate can't, or won't, use them to their strengths.

 

[Bluto Blutarsky]

Best line I've seen about Southgate:

"Southgate is so underrated as a manager. Show me any other manager in the world who can nullify attacking talent like Southgate."

 

[McFlash]

Bellingham isnt a central midfielder mate. You got Rice and nobody else really.

I think Bellingham is more than capable of playing CM alongside Rice.
After that though, yeah, we are beginning to scratch around a bit.

 

[McFlash]

To be honest, I'd be tempted to go 4141, with Rice as the 1 and a 4 made up of Bellingham, Saka, Foden and Maddison.
Give them the freedom to switch about and run off Kane up top.

Ok, it's a bloody attacking formation but it's using the talent available to do what they can, create and score.
A bit like we used to with Dier as a DM, dropping back between Toby and Jan when needed.

 

[For the love of Spurs]

To be honest, I'd be tempted to go 4141, with Rice as the 1 and a 4 made up of Bellingham, Saka, Foden and Maddison.
Give them the freedom to switch about and run off Kane up top.

Ok, it's a bloody attacking formation but it's using the talent available to do what they can, create and score.
A bit like we used to with Dier as a DM, dropping back between Toby and Jan when needed.

You need a manager who can coach possession football to do that. I agree, as a team with the right coach it would be insane but we don’t have that.

 

[McFlash]

You need a manager who can coach possession football to do that. I agree, as a team with the right coach it would be insane but we don’t have that.

Or a manager brave enough to try it.
The players shouldn't need much coaching because of their natural, club style.
I reckon that if we had a motivator in the style of Arry, telling the players to go out there and do what they do best, the attacking threat would negate the potential defensive weakness.
It would certainly be more fun to watch.

 

[mr ashley]

But context is everything. With the squad Southgate has, the expectation is higher. So yeah, Southgate has done a better job than Roy Hodgson, but go and look at those squads from 2012 and 2014. Even the golden generation was a collection of talent lacking cohesion and lacking elite forwards.

You can only judge people based on the opportunities they are given. Southgate initially did very well (creating a genuine team atmosphere and getting a not that good squad to the semis in 2018) but as the players available to him have improved his managerial approach has not

I don’t think the expectation was much lower under Sven. When you go through the teams he had, you had 8 or so of the best players in Europe in their positions too.

Sven never got us past a quarter final. At least with Southgate we’ve actually reached a final.
no one else managed that
Not venables
Not robson
Not Sven

that’s my point.

And with the squad that we have this year, I expect us to reach the final and play France (because they’re the only other team with a squad a strong as ours)
Anything less has to be seen as a failure

but I’m also not here to be an advocate of Southgate’s either.

 

[McFlash]

I don’t think the expectation was much lower under Sven. When you go through the teams he had, you had 8 or so of the best players in Europe in their positions too.

Sven never got us past a quarter final. At least with Southgate we’ve actually reached a final.
no one else managed that
Not venables
Not robson
Not Sven

that’s my point.

And with the squad that we have this year, I expect us to reach the final and play France (because they’re the only other team with a squad a strong as ours)
Anything less has to be seen as a failure

but I’m also not here to be an advocate of Southgate’s either.

That's a fair and valid point but you've also got to consider the quality of the opposition we faced.
I would suggest that some of the managers you mentioned have been up against much better opposition that Southgate has faced.
So yeah, he maybe got us further but there's much more to it than just a page in a stat book.

 

[rossdapep]

And that's part of what annoying me with Southgate, he's not playing to the obvious strengths.
Apart from Walker and Stones, our defenders are pretty crap or unreliable, so why not try the likes of Tomori and Branthwaite instead of persisting with Maguire or playing Dunk.
That's not planning for the future at all and friendlies are the time to give the youngsters a chance because he can't do it in a tournament.

We're stuck with Pickford because I don't think there are any better options but the others need to be replaced.

Yeah..There's no need to continuously keep picking Maguire, especially in friendlies.

And there is none whatsoever in bringing Dunk on.

Dunk should be a reserve. It truly baffles me why he is giving game time to someone so rigid and old when you have younger talents that could use that game time.

 

[mr ashley]

That's a fair and valid point but you've also got to consider the quality of the opposition we faced.
I would suggest that some of the managers you mentioned have been up against much better opposition that Southgate has faced.
So yeah, he maybe got us further but there's much more to it than just a page in a stat book.

Yes of course, it’s subjective until you look at the facts

that was always my point though.

with the strength of the premier league the next manager will be on as much of a hiding to nothing as well.
They should be winning things

hopefully they’ll take the handbrake off

 

[McFlash]

Yes of course, it’s subjective until you look at the facts

that was always my point though.

with the strength of the premier league the next manager will be on as much of a hiding to nothing as well.
They should be winning things

hopefully they’ll take the handbrake off

Sorry, I'm tired but what facts should I be looking at?

Every England manager is on a hiding to nothing really and have been since I can remember because we're a small nation who believe we should punch above our weight.
Only now we should be punching at our weight because of the talent we have, so we need a manager who can enable us to do so.

 

[14/04/91]

To be honest, I'd be tempted to go 4141, with Rice as the 1 and a 4 made up of Bellingham, Saka, Foden and Maddison.
Give them the freedom to switch about and run off Kane up top.

Ok, it's a bloody attacking formation but it's using the talent available to do what they can, create and score.
A bit like we used to with Dier as a DM, dropping back between Toby and Jan when needed.

It’s not that attacking if the full backs don’t bomb on. And under Southgate they don’t tend to.
I think it’s worth exploring; it takes away the problem of ‘the other midfielder’ which I think is going to be our biggest issue. He will continue to play Henderson/Phillips/Gallagher rather than try something different and I think it will cost us big time.

 

[Bluto Blutarsky]

Interesting exercise - I looked at the national teams from the Quarterfinals of Euros 2020 (2021), and the 2022 World Cup.

There are 5 teams who still have the same manager:

Argentina - Scaloni - has won both WC and Copa America
France - Deschamps - has won WC, and finished runner up in WC and Euros

England - Southgate - Euros Runner-up

Denmark - Hjulmand - 3rd place Euros
Croatia - Dalik - WC runners up and 3rd place finish


Argentina and France - proven winners at this level. Croatia had 2 great WC runs - and that is probably as good as it gets for a country of Croatia's size and pedigree - and same thing for Denmark - albeit just the one run in the Euros.


What has Southgate done with England to warrant still being manager for 8 years? Probably that he does not rock the boat. England should demand better of its manager - especially given the talent that is available.