The beginning of the end...

[rossdapep]

By the time the window closes we will have played four matches, including 40% of our away matches to top six clubs for the whole season, with players such as Eriksen, Rose, Aurier, and evidently Vertonghen all unsettled. Surely you can see why Poch would be frustrated with that.

I can understand, certainly. But it's making excuses again, we won't ever be title winners if we have ready made excuses. Neither will we if we can't beat Newcastle at home.

Hopefully we'll see a massive improvement once the window finishes so we can garner some positivity again. But that has to start with the manager.

 

[JayB]

Then that's ridiculous. Neither City or Liverpool drop the press.

In fact, Liverpool counter press, which allows them to press intensely for 10-15 mins and then drop deep to reserve energy.

The fact that our press just disappeared is just mind boggling.

Is it really mind boggling when you consider how threadbare the squad was last season and the fact that we're miles away from full strength right now? If the squad gets fully fit and settled and the press is still nowhere to be seen I'll agree with you wholeheartedly, but that is simply not the situation we find ourselves in right now.

 

[Phomesy]

Dominating a game is more than possession and shots. A team can deserve 3 points more than the opponent even if they only have 25 % of the ball and only shoots 5 shots vs 17 for the opponent. It's about creating good chances (expected goals). Before Eriksen was subsituted on, we had nothing vs Villa.

I agree with everything in your post except the bolded part.

We were much better with Eriksen (he's our best player after all) but we should have scored 3 goals first half.

I had the benefit of watching a full replay days after the game (after following it on here while in Paris). The difference between what the people watching it real time and the reality watching it "cold" was stark.

We completely dominated Villa from go to woe. It's just a fact. Not a "feeling".

 

[Lighty64]

Then that's ridiculous. Neither City or Liverpool drop the press.

In fact, Liverpool counter press, which allows them to press intensely for 10-15 mins and then drop deep to reserve energy.

The fact that our press just disappeared is just mind boggling.

Liverpool have played 3 games so far this season, and not once have the oppos sat with 10 players behind the ball. yet so far we have played 2 that have stuck everyman behind the ball and hit on the counter

 

[hatch]

I’m sorry I can’t get past the “unsettled” squad comment already but MP picks players, from what I’m lead to believe, on their merit in training. If he’s picking players on that then the “unsettled” comment goes out the window and what we should have is a group on matchdays ready and equipped but we don’t seem to get that.

 

[kendoddsdadsdogsdead]

You're acting like Poch has taken over a team battling relegation? we have a really strong squad, you seem to think it's acceptable that we've been so poor because of various reasons, but I completely disagree. We continually lost games last season against vastly inferior opposition, we are hardly a cobbled together shadow of a squad that Poch is turd polishing.

How has my post indicated that? Check the threads at the start of last season. People thought we would struggle last year(obviously not talking about relegation, that’s stupid, but top four)

If you don’t refresh you become stale, that’s what happens to football teams. Players get comfy/complacent and I think some of ours lost the belief in what the club/owners want to achieve.

 

[Mr Pink]

I agree with everything in your post except the bolded part.

We were much better with Eriksen (he's our best player after all) but we should have scored 3 goals first half.

I had the benefit of watching a full replay days after the game (after following it on here while in Paris). The difference between what the people watching it real time and the reality watching it "cold" was stark.

We completely dominated Villa from go to woe. It's just a fact. Not a "feeling".

Mate, respectfully, I disagree with that.

We didn't create anywhere near the amount you'd expect for the poseession we had.

If that's domination, it's sterile domination.

It's not banging the door down creating an avalanche of clear cut chances - that's domination.

 

[ajspurs]

Is it really mind boggling when you consider how threadbare the squad was last season and the fact that we're miles away from full strength right now? If the squad gets fully fit and settled and the press is still nowhere to be seen I'll agree with you wholeheartedly, but that is simply not the situation we find ourselves in right now.

Maybe other elements, like creativity and flow may be further achieved with all our players available but I don't see why we'd have to wait for that us to be able to press. The high press hasn't been in a constant in our play for a long long time.

 

[scat1620]

There is no question that we have gradually regressed over the past three seasons, that's a statistical fact based on league games anyway. I'm not just talking about points on the board but number of shots taken, number conceded etc. Three years ago we were number one on those kind of stats, now I'm not sure if we're top 6.

The question is who is responsible for that regression and is it reversible? There's no doubt that not freshening up the squad over the past couple of years has played a major part in this. Our best players have got older (or left) and we haven't adequately replaced them. Obviously I'm not including this summer's signings in that, far too early to judge but they all have massive potential.

However, Poch has overseen this decline so ultimately he has to take responsibility. Levy may well have hampered him in terms of signings (certainly wouldn't be the first time) but ultimately the buck stops with him. Whether it is reversible or not depends on Poch but his demeanour over the past 6 months or so does not inspire me with confidence.

That's where I'm at too. We have unequivocally been on the decline for the 2 seasons since 2016/17 (plus the opening signs of 2019/20), and I think it's a combination of some terrible player recruitment and retention in that time (I'll never ever get over how stupid of a decision it was to sell Kyle Walker to a rival with 4 years left on his contract, and to not even have the minerals to hold out and insist that Jaden Sancho came the other way as part of that deal), and some less than stellar management of the players we have had available.

Hard to tell exactly how much the transfer ins/outs business has directly caused problems with the squad management: I'd argue that the chronic lack of backup/competition to Eriksen has directly contributed to his dip in form over the past year, for example; but equally I've been frustrated for some time with our terrible first half showings compared to our second half performances, which is a problem that lies squarely in Poch's camp.

Overall I think probably both Poch and Levy have got a lot wrong on the football side of overseeing our club since the end of 2016/17, and I think we're going to continue our current slide down the table unless both of them pick up their respective games, and fucking quickly.

 

[Tonio]

I inferred it from your post. If you’re sure you’re more passionate than @am_yisrael_chai how can I be sure you don’t think the same of me or any other poster?
Don't take it so personally.

 

[Phomesy]

People saying that we should not worry about last years form as we got to the CL final, may as well say dont worry about key players wanting to leave as we nearly signed Dybala.

Its the whole picture we need to look at. Does Poch have the enthusiasm to start a new 5 year project and rebuild again?

I hope so but have serious doubts on how this changes, I cant remember many managers turning things around when the players stop responding and playing like they used to.

Is it worth asking ourselves why Poch would want to continue when an apparently large part of our support base thinks his time is up?

Can’t think what he and the new players make of the “Wall of silence and moaning”...

We will reap what we sow.

 

[absolute bobbins]

I always love this line. What are you going to do to avoid settling for mediocrity?

Most just parrot that line and then go on with their distinctly mediocre life.

 

[Phomesy]

Mate, respectfully, I disagree with that.

We didn't create anywhere near the amount you'd expect for the poseession we had.

If that's domination, it's sterile domination.

It's not banging the door down creating an avalanche of clear cut changes - that's domination.

It might not look as pretty as City but the xg was similar to their most dominant games.

Anyway my point was simply that it shouldn’t be per of this conversation because it was a good performance much better than it felt “live”

Newcastle was a completely different prospect

 

[Snarfalicious]

Anyone correlate the lack of pressing to our injury concerns right now? Pochettino comes from the Bielsa coaching tree and one of the common qualms with Bielsa’s preferred pressing is the common place for break down of the players over the course of the season. Could very well be that Pochettino views that as too big of a risk right now, and until we are closer to full health and some of our players put their injuries well and truly in the rear view mirror, the press is temporarily shelved. It may be an all or nothing thing for Poch. Half-ass pressing is typically a waste of energy and can easily be worked around, leaving you more exposed.

 

[JayB]

Maybe other elements, like creativity and flow may be further achieved with all our players available but I don't see why we'd have to wait for that us to be able to press. The high press hasn't been in a constant in our play for a long long time.

That's fair, we can only really speculate as to why Poch has made the decisions he's making. You're right that we haven't pressed the way we once did for a long time now, but my hope is that once the squad is fully fit and Poch has the ability to rotate as needed we'll see it come back. Last season it was a complete impossibility and as for this season, it's a lot to ask of players who are still working their way up to full fitness in the early going to press like animals when you know there's little possibility to rotate and rest them with half the squad out recovering from injury or in Poch's bad graces. Fingers crossed that once we're fully up to speed we'll see the press return because the current complacency on the pitch is not cutting it.

 

[fortworthspur]

Most just parrot that line and then go on with their distinctly mediocre life.

not to mention we're Spurs fans! Mediocrity comes with the territory.

 

[arunspurs]

I remember mediocrity. This isn’t it.

15 points from 15 games. 1 point a game putting us in 18th spot in this 15 game table.
General known stat is, if a team is in relegation zone after 50% of games, its more than likely to finish in same relegation zone...

But then, aren't we supposed to challenge for title & get top4 ?

Unless a big turn around happens in form, if same thing persist we will end up being a mediocre side.

Times have moved on. Club have moved on. We have become a bigger club in last 15 years or so.

We cannot apply the 90s mediocrity reference to now. Now the mediocrity for us, is to finish outside top6.

Its time, we acknowledge the bad rut we are in. Yes, this is new season. But if the old problem persist and there is no solution then we are in trouble.

We have to improve massively in next few PL games, to clearly come out of this trend.

 

[absolute bobbins]

not to mention we're Spurs fans! Mediocrity comes with the territory.

Amen brother. I was signed up for football mediocrity in 1989, thanks Dad!

 

[slartibartfast]

I'm trying to make the point that we had 17 shots, not 3 like the other poster said. I don't really see why it matters whether shots come in the 1st minute or the 91st but yes I agree we didn't play well.

Really?
Then I'll explain.
It matters because if you are behind and have had 17 shots in the first half but are still behind, you then have another 45mins to score.
If you leave it until the last minute to shoot you won't have scored up until that point (because you haven't had a shot, makes it difficult) and then if you still dont score then you're fucked.
I'd have thought that was obvious.
Apparently not.
Sorry for being pissy but was a bizarre thing to say

 

[ohtottenham!]

Maybe other elements, like creativity and flow may be further achieved with all our players available but I don't see why we'd have to wait for that us to be able to press. The high press hasn't been in a constant in our play for a long long time.

An effective, sustained high press works if you have the squad to maintain it. We don't; we ain't been fit or injury free for a long time, and had no adequate rotation for games, which would help with a high-press approach. Really think this is a squad issue.