Spurs Youth - 2019/20

[Insomnia]

I don't remember him playing a single minute of U18 or U23 football last season. Can anyone correct me?

No, you're quite correct, you don't remember

 

[Matecheck]

Can you believe that Georgiou and Dinzeyi were selected to go on the 2017 preseason tour ahead of Edwards and Tanganga .

You know nothing, IGSnow. Poch saw them all in training, you didn't.

 

[King of Otters]

Can you believe that Georgiou and Dinzeyi were selected to go on the 2017 preseason tour ahead of Edwards and Tanganga .

We would take Miller, Marsh, Georgiou over the likes of Shashoua, Bennetts, Edwards, Brown and Hinds, because they were good guys?

Apparently this is a finishing school and not a football club

If those guys were working harder than their more talented teammates in training I can understand why Poch would have chosen to reward them. Talent is nothing without application, and that needs to be reinforced at youth level above anything else.

 

[IGSpur]

If those guys were working harder than their more talented teammates in training I can understand why Poch would have chosen to reward them. Talent is nothing without application, and that needs to be reinforced at youth level above anything else.

As I said it's a football club. What purpose is there investing time in a hard working player who's maximum potential is to be a 4 out of 10, when you have a 8/9 out of 10 at your disposal. You're job as manager is to maximise the resources you have available I thought. Especially if you want funds to buy players, you need to add value.

I think as a manager working with 18 year olds you need to be creative rather than take a one size fits all approach, it's what they do for the first team. Not everyone is going to work at the same level. Anyway by all accounts Tanganga's an excellent trainer so I don't know why he would miss two preseasons in a row but then I don't see them in training and am only going off reports

 

[Steffen]

As I said it's a football club. What purpose is there investing time in a hard working player who's maximum potential is to be a 4 out of 10, when you have a 8/9 out of 10 at your disposal. You're job as manager is to maximise the resources you have available I thought. Especially if you want funds to buy players, you need to add value.

I think as a manager working with 18 year olds you need to be creative rather than take a one size fits all approach, it's what they do for the first team. Not everyone is going to work at the same level. Anyway by all accounts Tanganga's an excellent trainer so I don't know why he would miss two preseasons in a row but then I don't see them in training and am only going off reports

Because potential is not a 100% known quantity. Some players hit their ceiling at 18, some at 23. When they are 15-18 years old, you don't know for sure who has the highest ceiling. Those you THINK have the biggest potential, won't fulfill that potential if they don't work hard enough. A hard-working 4/10 player will be better than a 8/10 player who can't be arsed.

 

[razzmaster]

Because potential is not a 100% known quantity. Some players hit their ceiling at 18, some at 23. When they are 15-18 years old, you don't know for sure who has the highest ceiling. Those you THINK have the biggest potential, won't fulfill that potential if they don't work hard enough. A hard-working 4/10 player will be better than a 8/10 player who can't be arsed.

So why is Edwards suddenly starting to fulfil his potential? Is it because he is working harder or because he has been given an opportunity and has been shown some faith?

My guess would be the latter. Taking a one size fits all approach to anything in life doesn't work as you need to adapt your approach to the individual. You can tell one person they are amazing and it will go to their head and say the same thing to someone else and they will thrive.

Tell someone they need to work harder or they won't make it will have different results depending on who you tell. Some will work harder others will sulk.

I would also always prefer to work on an 8/10 player to improve their mentality than take a 4/10 and ttry to improve their ability.

 

[spursfan77]

Who is now in charge of the academy after McDermott left?

Seems a bit crazy we haven't replaced him. It all seems a bit rudderless behind the scenes though with not much news of things being sorted. Maybe his replacement will be part of a wider plan but it is concerning we haven't heard anything about any of that.

Maybe we will once the season ends but that is still only a short break.

 

[SecretLemonadeDrinker]

I would also always prefer to work on an 8/10 player to improve their mentality than take a 4/10 and ttry to improve their ability.

Agreed. When there is that big a gulf in ability, it’s a no brainer. But when the gulf in ability isn’t so huge, mentality becomes key.

Harry Kane, for instance, was probably a 7/10 in terms of ability when in the academy. But you’d take him every time over an 8/10 Edwards because you know that he has the mentality to squeeze every last drop out of whatever ability he has.

 

[razzmaster]

Agreed. When there is that big a gulf in ability, it’s a no brainer. But when the gulf in ability isn’t so huge, mentality becomes key.

Harry Kane, for instance, was probably a 7/10 in terms of ability when in the academy. But you’d take him every time over an 8/10 Edwards because you know that he has the mentality to squeeze every last drop out of whatever ability he has.

When you are talking fine margins then I would agree but when Georgiou is ahead of Edwards then something is wrong.

As for Kane, I think he was always an 8 or 9 in the academy as he was very highly regarded by the club. Some of our fans weren't so keen initially but that's another story.

 

[thekneaf]

When you are talking fine margins then I would agree but when Georgiou is ahead of Edwards then something is wrong.

As for Kane, I think he was always an 8 or 9 in the academy as he was very highly regarded by the club. Some of our fans weren't so keen initially but that's another story.

Yeah, not loving this revisionism regarding Kane. Sure he had some tough loans, but he was always smashing goals in left right and center through the set up.

Read a Dawson interview once where one of the youth teams roll past and say they beat someone handsomely, and Dawson was like "Kane hattrick?". Everyone knew.

 

[SecretLemonadeDrinker]

When you are talking fine margins then I would agree but when Georgiou is ahead of Edwards then something is wrong.

As for Kane, I think he was always an 8 or 9 in the academy as he was very highly regarded by the club. Some of our fans weren't so keen initially but that's another story.

I don’t believe that Georgiou, Marsh et al were ever really ahead of Edwards. Do you? They were never likely to break into the first team. Not properly. I suspect that keeping them was simply a matter of them being the kind of young player that you don’t mind having around because they are easygoing and hardworking.

Edwards, by contrast, was always going to be dissatisfied with anything other than first team football (or at least tangible progress in his career). He has a far higher ceiling than those other players. He knows it. They know it. He’s not the kind of player that you keep unless you are going to play him.

 

[wizgell]

When you are talking fine margins then I would agree but when Georgiou is ahead of Edwards then something is wrong.

As for Kane, I think he was always an 8 or 9 in the academy as he was very highly regarded by the club. Some of our fans weren't so keen initially but that's another story.

You also need to look at the pre-season tours themselves too. There isn't always the opportunity to develop players whilst on tour, and what is often clear is that some youngsters only get taken to plug the gaps left by those who are still on a break after internationals or injury etc.

The likes of Georgiou were asked to play out of position, and were willing to do so, to plug those gaps, which often isn't a trait that you would expect from the supposed 'wonderkids' that are in the same age group as them.

 

[SecretLemonadeDrinker]

Yeah, not loving this revisionism regarding Kane. Sure he had some tough loans, but he was always smashing goals in left right and center through the set up.

Read a Dawson interview once where one of the youth teams roll past and say they beat someone handsomely, and Dawson was like "Kane hattrick?". Everyone knew.

Point taken. But let’s not get bogged down in what a 7/10 or an 8/10 actually means. That’s just a matter of calibration or benchmarking. I based my 7/10 natural ability rating for Kane on Edwards having already been given an 8/10 ability rating by razzmaster. That’s all.

Agreed that Kane was very highly rated in the academy. But that doesn’t mean that he was so highly rated for his ability alone. He was so highly rated precisely because of the potent mix of his natural ability AND his mentality. The coaches will have seen how Kane worked and improved year on year and always hungered for more. That’s why he was such a good academy player. And that’s why he became such a great senior player.

 

[sly1]

As I said it's a football club. What purpose is there investing time in a hard working player who's maximum potential is to be a 4 out of 10, when you have a 8/9 out of 10 at your disposal. You're job as manager is to maximise the resources you have available I thought. Especially if you want funds to buy players, you need to add value.

I think as a manager working with 18 year olds you need to be creative rather than take a one size fits all approach, it's what they do for the first team. Not everyone is going to work at the same level. Anyway by all accounts Tanganga's an excellent trainer so I don't know why he would miss two preseasons in a row but then I don't see them in training and am only going off reports

Presumably rewarding the hard-workers was an attempt to encourage the other players to work hard, rather than because they thought the hard-workers would make it as top players. They must have thought, right or wrongly, that Edwards' would benefit more from having the importance of hard work demonstrated than he would have from playing with the first team on a preseason tour.

I don't necessarily agree that the club's approach worked or was the right thing to do, but you can clearly appreciate that it is very difficult to instil an elite, professional attitude in a young person that is losing their way. It's not like his loans were all huge successes either. For all we know, had Edwards floated around the first team with us for a few years he may never have started playing at the standard he is now. (Or maybe he would, we just don't know).

 

[spurs9]

So why is Edwards suddenly starting to fulfil his potential? Is it because he is working harder or because he has been given an opportunity and has been shown some faith?

My guess would be the latter. Taking a one size fits all approach to anything in life doesn't work as you need to adapt your approach to the individual. You can tell one person they are amazing and it will go to their head and say the same thing to someone else and they will thrive.

Tell someone they need to work harder or they won't make it will have different results depending on who you tell. Some will work harder others will sulk.

I would also always prefer to work on an 8/10 player to improve their mentality than take a 4/10 and ttry to improve their ability.

It's very possible that not making it here and being sold to a Portuguese team outside the top few gave him the Kick up the Arse or motivation or desire to kick start him. He wouldn't be the first player that this has happened to.

 

[Cochise]

With Wigan being in the difficulties that they are, could we purchase their academy lead?

NB: I know fuck all, but it seems to me that a club that are creating these great youth prospects must have some decent staff. And then there's us seemingly without a McDermott replacement.

 

[SecretLemonadeDrinker]

Question for those of you who follow our youth teams closely:

How far off a place in the first team squad is Dennis Cirkin? Obviously, he has no experience at senior level....so my question is more about his physical and mental maturity. Is he the kind that could thrive and make an immediate impact or will he need time to grow into senior football through well chosen loan spells?

I ask because I see left back as one of the positions that most requires strengthening in our first team. Ben Davies is a decent defender but offers comparatively little going forward. Overall, he’s a bit “meh” to me. Decent, likeable, good squad option......but not a starting left back for a team that aspires to win the biggest trophies. A big downgrade on peak Danny Rose.

Ryan Sessegnon obviously has huge potential. But I’m not sure that it is at left back. So the question is - should we actively be looking to buy a new left back this window or should we give Dennis Cirkin the opportunity to deputise Ben Davies this season and see if he can make the position his own?

 

[Cochise]

I don't know first hand, but I think some on here commented earlier in this thread that he's not afraid to put his foot in.

 

[he is you know!]

Question for those of you who follow our youth teams closely:

How far off a place in the first team squad is Dennis Cirkin? Obviously, he has no experience at senior level....so my question is more about his physical and mental maturity. Is he the kind that could thrive and make an immediate impact or will he need time to grow into senior football through well chosen loan spells?

I ask because I see left back as one of the positions that most requires strengthening in our first team. Ben Davies is a decent defender but offers comparatively little going forward. Overall, he’s a bit “meh” to me. Decent, likeable, good squad option......but not a starting left back for a team that aspires to win the biggest trophies. A big downgrade on peak Danny Rose.

Ryan Sessegnon obviously has huge potential. But I’m not sure that it is at left back. So the question is - should we actively be looking to buy a new left back this window or should we give Dennis Cirkin the opportunity to deputise Ben Davies this season and see if he can make the position his own?

Jose has already confirmed that Cirkin and White are in 1st team squad next season.

Effectively we still have 4 left backs on the books and only Rose is likely to go.

I imagine a new RB is more likely, but I'm sure they will be trying to figure out the Sess conundrum. Maybe he goes on loan to specifically play LB, leaving admittedly young cover in Cirkin/Tanganga?

 

[GetSpurredOn]

Personally I’d keep Sessegnon here. As a bench option due to his ability to cover LB, LWF or RWF, he should be prime for getting minutes to continue his development. You need to factor in that we’ll be in Europa next year (probably), and as such Thursday games against lower calibre opposition will be ideal to get some of these guys competitive minutes, without PL or CL pressure.