Spurs and VAR

[Neon_Knight_]

I know this has been said multiple times before but what happened to VAR only correcting clear and obvious errors? I would say alot of the fouls given, be it offside or penaltys are not clear and obvious errors.

Exactly! Offsides and handballs (even when accidental handball was allowed) have been treated very differently to fouls right from day 1...even though there is nothing to suggest they should be treated differently. For me, the implementation has been a complete mess, even though the biggest oversights and shortcomings were all predictable and easily avoidable human error, while the governing bodies happily allow the technology to take centre stage of the controversies.

 

[easley91]

The best thing to do is get a panel of defenders and ask them how you jump for a ball or position yourself to defend. They will show you everytime where the arm will normally be. Can't believe Roy Keane saying Dier was a handball. I think I'll take the word of defenders like Carragher in this.

 

[Trotter]

You might be misremembering. The Pique one was much more blatant. This was the one in the FIFA videos I saw:

Actually was the Cedric Soares against Iran that was one I was thinking of as being the identical type of situation FIFA used on their videos to show examples of things that should be given as a penalty, the Pique one was in there as one of the examples in respect of hand being above shoulder height that should also be given.

 

[Saoirse]

On subjective decisions, it's inherently little better than what we had. On objective decisions, it's objectively shit and anti-football. And no matter how many flaws you iron out, it will always dampen the emotion of scoring. I originally supported VAR but I was wrong - it needs to go.

 

[SecretLemonadeDrinker]

Totally agree the handball would not have been given if outside the area (referee did not spot it in real-time, and VAR would not get involved if outside area), but that doesn't make it not an offence.

And of course nobody can define what is a deliberate or accidental handball is, because those are subjective terms, so any decision based on those criteria are subjective, and will always lack consistency. (and I would say as much as 90% of penalties previously given for handball were never deliberate anyway, more accidental, often instinctive, but avoidable)

Downgrading certain types of handball to indirect free-kicks is irrelevant really, it should ideally just go back to what it was, everyone that saying they wanted consistency, just say sorry, we didn't understand the consequences of what we wanted, and we won't moan about handball again

You are / have been a referee and I have to say that, highlighted above, is the sadly typical attitude of referees on the broader issue, it seems to me.

They feel so threatened or offended by VAR that they have done near everything in their power to render it farcical, and deeply unpopular, and thereby get public opinion begging for a return to the "good, old days" when no one could second guess or embarrass them.

VAR is a perfectly good idea, if only it wasn't for morons dictating idiotic and unnecessary rules and yet more morons officiating them.

 

[Trotter]

You are / have been a referee and I have to say that, highlighted above, is the sadly typical attitude of referees on the broader issue, it seems to me.

They feel so threatened or offended by VAR that they have done near everything in their power to render it farcical, and deeply unpopular, and thereby get public opinion begging for a return to the "good, old days" when no one could second guess or embarrass them.

VAR is a perfectly good idea, if only it wasn't for morons dictating idiotic and unnecessary rules and yet more morons officiating them.

Wish there was a totally clueless rating, I would have awarded to you on 3 or 4 occasions today, but have kept it civil.
Not sure I will on your next baseless and incorrect attack, actually sod it will just put you ignore

 

[SecretLemonadeDrinker]

Wish there was a totally clueless rating, I would have awarded to you on 3 or 4 occasions today

Oh, go on..........why not actually quote the posts and give your reasons for them being clueless if you're so confident of your opinion?

What would undoubtedly be clueless would be for anyone to emphatically assert that the foul on Hojbjerg yesterday was actually a foul on Joelinton - despite clear video evidence showing Joelinton deliberately launching himself headlong at Hjobjerg.

But no one would actually say such a thing.....would they?

 

[LeSoupeKitchen]

Agree to disagree, we are getting it in massively enhanced numbers compared to before, on handballs, offsides, penalties etc. Are we at 100% consistency, no, and never will be whilst some laws are subjective, which they always will be.

Maybe the consistency that people wanted is Consistency, but only if that consistency benefits my club, but maybe it is a lesson to all, the grass is not always greener, and better the devil you know.

You are talking such utter s***.

Edit: apologies this is a childish comment. I just despair of your opinion and that you're missing the whole point of what people are annoyed about. I despair even more that what you're saying is probably believed by the people in power too.

I find it so offensive that you think it's only unpopular because the decisions are going against us. That you believe football for all of us has been reduced to just being a case of win or lose and has nothing to do with ability on the pitch. I'm not happy winning or losing based on a roll of the dice with refs and laws.

 

[peterballb]

It is a sport. It is supposed to be, on the balance, fair. Offsides to the mm is not in the spirit of the rules. Hand to ball, not ball to hand is in the spirit of the rules. There should remain the human element. VAR to correct clear and obvious errors (refs do get unsighted and sometimes do not see things as they occur - diving has not helped)

The idea of VAR (which was laudable), was to reverse clear and obvious errors. The game is just too fast. My suggestion has always been to put a second official on the pitch (which will result in most calls being made and will obviate any ideas of bias). Want to make critical decisions reviewable to the mm - give coaches a challenge.

An obvious offside that was missed, a deliberate handball that was missed, an obvious penalty that was missed or a rash tackle that was missed. That's why yellow cards aren't contemplated by VAR. Just straight reds. The reason for this is that any and all, in the TV replay era, with all games televised, can fully appreciate the unfairness of clear and obvious errors. If it wasn't obviously a handball, or a penalty or an offside, or a rash tackle, who was complaining?

Anyone read the tome Dermot Gallagher wrote on all of the calls from the weekend. Errors still being made. How much time do these decisions take? How many are of the opinion that this is justice? It is sucking the life out of the game.

Yes, assuming the cameras are placed properly and similarly in all stadiae, offsides can probably be done to the mm. It'll take time and suck the soul out of the game. Same can be done for the handball rule as it now stands. Both assume that they will be applied to the letter and that the refs looking at the monitor will not interpret the rules. Black and white. Rules are clear, it is or it isn't. No interpretation required. We saw this weekend, penalties sometimes are or are not. A deliberate hand to the face may be a red or not. They are still interpreting, which is not black and white and continues to result in call that make people say WTF.

VAR should reverse clear and obvious (not mm) errors by the official. Beyond that, allow coaches a challenge. Bruce could have challenged the handball (not a clear an obvious error by the official IMO). Mourinho the offside or the foul. Happens in other sports. Unlike the tedium of these VAR reviews which fans cannot stand as they feel the life going out of the game, fans do not mind the time it takes for a coaches' review. Who in tennis does not enjoy the challenges? Way less complaining in modern tennis. Calls that occur after your challenges are gone, are made by the officials. Umpire overrules where he/she finds an obvious error.

There is a better way to do this. That ought to be explored. The current system frustrates all concerned.

 

[Monkey boy]

Sorry @MK Yid , but I have to call BS on your behavior on this thread so far, and here is why:

Last season, after City got a goal disallowed against us with the use of var, because of a handball on the build up to that goal, in the final minutes of the match that ended 2-2, you seemed upset that it got disallowed, arguing that the hand was clearly just a matter of chance, and how it was a bad rule, blah blah blah. That part was kinda consistent with the behavior you're exhibiting right now I guess, even though for some reason back then you didn't have this attitude of "those are rules man, it was clearly a handball, just move on please" as you're having now.

What was totally inconsistent though, is that in that same discussion you argued that Llorente's goal against that same lot, in the season before (CL QFs), should also have been disallowed. In fact, you seemed upset about how that goal was allowed to stand, even though: a. there wasn't any clear evidence that could prove Llorente brushed the ball with his arm (so it indeed was a 50/50 decision for the ref at best) and b. back then that rule had more grey areas than it does now.

The only thing that makes sense to me is that perhaps you're like me, in the sense that you rather us being threated unfairly by the refs than being given an unfair advantage by them over other teams... it's just that you seem to be taking this to the extreme, to a place where I simply can't join you because, well, it's idiotic. How the fuck can you even being to argue that Hojbjerg fouled Joelinton? That's where it becomes clear that you're not being as objective as you probably think you are.

you’ve only got to read his posts on other subjects to come to the conclusion that @MK Yid is not what his name suggests. Great cover plan though, I mean who would have thought that somebody other than a spurs fan would choose a username like that. Genius

 

[BringBack_leGin]

VAR was brought in for clear and obvious errors.

Any situation which takes more than, say, half a minute to decide that the initial decision was wrong is not clear and obvious.

 

[Marty]

VAR was brought in for clear and obvious errors.

Any situation which takes more than, say, half a minute to decide that the initial decision was wrong is not clear and obvious.

This is the crux of it for me. VAR is being misused because the powers that be have determined that offsides and handballs are matter-of-fact decisions so the clear and obvious part doesn't apply to them. In my opinion, this is wrong.

 

[wrd]

Let’s be honest anybody who has seen Tron Legacy knows what has happened. The humans asked for the perfect system and the robots/computer have taken that in such a literal sense that they’re destroying the beauty of the game.

 

[stov]

Is mk yid a ref?

 

[JimmyG2]

Does it enhance the game?
Does it improve the experience for the fans, the players or the referees?
Were the problems it was brought in to remedy so bad?
Is it ready to be introduced on such a wide scale?
Drawing board here we come.

 

[wrd]

I actually think VAR in of itself has rapidly improved since last season. The last problem is this handball rule. If they went back to the old rule and used VAR to interpret it using common sense with the monitor then I think we would have as close to the perfect set up we have ever had in football.

 

[Shadydan]

I actually think VAR in of itself has rapidly improved since last season. The last problem is this handball rule. If they went back to the old rule and used VAR to interpret it using common sense with the monitor then I think we would have as close to the perfect set up we have ever had in football.

If VAR or the people controlling VAR would have done their jobs properly it would have overturned the clear and obvious error of the Hojbjerg 'foul' before the free kick

 

[Marty]

I actually think VAR in of itself has rapidly improved since last season. The last problem is this handball rule. If they went back to the old rule and used VAR to interpret it using common sense with the monitor then I think we would have as close to the perfect set up we have ever had in football.

I agree with this actually. Especially on red cards they're actually getting it right, like properly right. I don't think there's been a single contentious red card decision this season. KWP was shown a red very harshly, the ref was called over to the monitor and changed it to a yellow which was a good call. I still think they're taking too long over hair-splitting offsides but it does seem to go a lot quicker than last season.

The handball rule is the real problem here.

If VAR or the people controlling VAR would have done their jobs properly it would have overturned the clear and obvious error of the Hojbjerg 'foul' before the free kick

But that is outside the remit VAR has been given. It would only be properly checked at if it were a potential red card offence.

 

[nailsy]

VAR was brought in for clear and obvious errors.

Any situation which takes more than, say, half a minute to decide that the initial decision was wrong is not clear and obvious.

I totally agree. That's what we thought we were getting. Although if we get that people will still moan about things that aren't checked by VAR.

If VAR or the people controlling VAR would have done their jobs properly it would have overturned the clear and obvious error of the Hojbjerg 'foul' before the free kick

As far as I can see that isn't cover by VAR at the moment which only looks at:

Goal/No Goal - The free kick led to a goal, but in a different phase.
Penalty/No penalty - Not in the box
Straight Red Card - I guess it could be a yellow for diving, but it didn't look like a red card offense.
Mistaken Identity - Not applicable.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

But that is outside the remit VAR has been given. It would only be properly checked at if it were a potential red card offence.

Straight Red Card - I guess it could be a yellow for diving, but it didn't look like a red card offense.

I would suggest that a flying superman punch leaping from a couple of metres away could quite easily be a red card offence.