Read this and understand (you know who you are)

[NEVILLEB]

Like any team we went through a bad run of form. To suggest there was something rotten at heart is too far.

AVB will be judged on his summer transfer dealings and how he gets the team to gel as a unit.

No excuses and no blaming Harry.

 

[rez9000]

Aye. For each negative remark we get 5 essays defending AVB. It's as if the Politburo are running the Nettlesworth newt watching society. Keep your voices down, you're scaring the newts...

Really, Stav?

Are you saying that supporting the manager, even if it's a nominal support while the ultimate press lynchmob is out to hang our manager carries the hallmarks of some sort of Thought Police?

Are you saying that some of our fans can't see how much damage they do to the club's reputation by booing during the third game of the season? And that calling them on it by defending our manager is tantamount to censorship?

Are you saying that because the defenders of AVB have the loudest voices that they are somehow in the wrong? Maybe their voices are loudest because they care more about defending our manager than in tearing him down?

And I apologise for being a pedant, but if 1 negative equates to 5 positives, doesn't that suggest that perhaps the majority view is with those who are defending AVB and that that makes the negative posters, er, wrong. And just to really drive home the point, isn't majority rule actually the basis of democracy?

But, hey, if all that makes me a member of the 'Politburo', then all I can say is, "Comrades! Spurs Fans! Unite!"

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Maybe harsher on the squad than I would be, but I think the decline started in February of 2011 and we had one winning streak that hid the frailties.

And the issue wasn't Harry, Levy or the players. Time had just caught up to an antiquated tactical system. Our basic setup has been based on a 4-4-2 with speed on the wings, two deep CM's and two forwards. It seems to me that Comolli might have been building it for Ramos from the minute he took over. But that 4-4-2, while fun back when Ramos was using it at Seville or even when Jol was using it here, was on it's last legs even then. The age of the 5 man midfield was already taking over then and the press became common soon after. The fact that Harry got VDV and used him as a second striker was pretty smart. It meant he could get a player as a 5th midfielder in a rigid system that can be overrun by the newer tactics that have 5 in the midfield. As we get further away from the tragedy of last year, its easier to see that what Harry was able to do with the structure in place (getting 4th, 5th and 4th) was actually outstanding. He's a good coach.

But he isn't the guy you want to rebuild the system from the ground floor up. AVB's system is on the cutting edge of today's tactics. That's good but it will take time. We are making a massive change here.

Look at Dortmund. Klopp introduced the press there, via a 4231, and while we see them as a very successful, he had two campaigns of 6th and 5th before he won the title. It took him time to get the system working and adjust the squad and I think the only players still significant by his first trophy from the team he inherited that was 13th were Wiedenfeller, Kehl (who was injured that first title but played all of last season) and Kuba. Sahin had been on loan and he brought him back into the fold. And Hummels had 10 games as a loanee in 07-08. He changed 9 players in the outfield over those 3 years via the academy of purchase (as Kuba went from starter to more of a sub). We have much more talent than that 07-08 Dormund side, but we can expect that there will continue to be changes as AVB tweaks.

Jol used 442. Ramos used a 4411 type system at Seville with Kanoute playing as a deeper type fulcrum. I think Ramos wanted to play a different system at spurs, with GDS as a wide forward, but Berbatov going and his striking options ending up as Campbell, Bent and a knackered and new the country Pav, just made any discernible system hard to work.

We had the players and looked superb when we played 433 last season. Trouble is we had a manager who said after the last time he played it:

“I thought it [the formation] suited us at Chelsea especially,” said the manager. “You get outnumbered in the middle if you play with two central midfield players, so we matched them up in the middle of the park. It gives you a lot of control of the game playing that way.

“It’s hard to play 4-4-2 these days. You can get away with it sometimes, when you are on top of games. But against better teams, when they play three in there, it can make it very difficult.

“With this system, you have an extra player in there and you can get more control of the ball, and more control of the game really.

“Ade [Adebayor] has done well up there on his own in the last few games – I thought he was excellent against Chelsea. So it’s a system I like.”

And then proceeded to not use the system again. The problem very much was Redknapp.

 

[Dan Yeats]

What we need, my fellow Yids, is not to turn on our team, manager, or chairman.

What we need, my fellow Yids, is a seige mentality.

No Passaran!!!

 

[StartingPrice]

What we need, my fellow Yids, is not to turn on our team, manager, or chairman.

What we need, my fellow Yids, is a seige mentality.

No Passaran!!!

Are you saying that AVB has learned the benefit of having a siege mentality from Beetroot Head and this last couple of weeks is all just a fiendish plan to implement Operation Circle-the-Wagons?

 

[ultimateloner]

So someone's offered a solid answer to our decline = 4231/4321 is better than 442 categorically and so we are overhauling to the new system. Apart from the '3rd man in midfield = more control' point, is this really true? I wrote something earlier around the standardization of fball tatics...every big teams gone onto the 4231. However IF its true that 1 systems just better than another then there should be an increase in margin (gulf) between those employing the tatic and those who are not (small teams), but league table last 2 years suggest that the table is made up of 2/3 top teams, tight from 4 to 10th, and everyone else fighting to avoid relegation; so there are 3 segements AND the results of big vs small is getting more unpredictatble if anything else. Thoughts?

 

[SteveH]

OP does make sense.
But it is not wrong to discuss and chat about AVB and even show concern as we did with H. Especial since he was proclaim as the would-be England manager.

 

[Dan Yeats]

Are you saying that AVB has learned the benefit of having a siege mentality from Beetroot Head and this last couple of weeks is all just a fiendish plan to implement Operation Circle-the-Wagons?

Erm.....

Um...

Oh okay then. Yes!

Devilishly cunning those Portugesians y'know.

 

[NEVILLEB]

Jol could blame Santini, Ramos could blame Jol, Redknapp could blame Ramos.....and on and on

If AVB flops it will be because he couldn't manage the team and perhaps more importantly couldn't manage Levy.

 

[HappySpur]

So someone's offered a solid answer to our decline = 4231/4321 is better than 442 categorically and so we are overhauling to the new system. Apart from the '3rd man in midfield = more control' point, is this really true? I wrote something earlier around the standardization of fball tatics...every big teams gone onto the 4231. However IF its true that 1 systems just better than another then there should be an increase in margin (gulf) between those employing the tatic and those who are not (small teams), but league table last 2 years suggest that the table is made up of 2/3 top teams, tight from 4 to 10th, and everyone else fighting to avoid relegation; so there are 3 segements AND the results of big vs small is getting more unpredictatble if anything else. Thoughts?

I think the biggest change is that a four man midfield is almost impossible to succeed at the highest level with. Even a 4-3-3 has a five man midfield when defending. But there are differences in the way this has succeeded from teams that build from the back (Barcelona), teams that press (Dortmund), teams that use inverted wingers (Bayern), teams that use 3 at the back (Napoli), teams that defend from possession (Juve), teams that work off transition (Real), teams that counter (Chelsea), etc.

There is also no end to the differences between those 5 man midfields as we talk more and more about bands.
4-1-4-1 (Germany)
4-2-2-1-1 (Arsenal)
4-1-3-1-1 (Chelsea)
4-6 (Spain)
4-3-2-1 (PSG)
and so forth

plus we get false 9's and 10's and teams that employ a winger on side but not the other such as with Ronaldo.

There so much that coaches are trying to tweak that tactics are far from stagnating, but evolving so much that its hard to keep up it seems. So I think there is less standardization than there was even 15 years ago when 4-4-2 was England, diamond was Italy, 4-3-3 was Holland and 3-5-2 was Germany and east.

 

[rez9000]

OP does make sense.
But it is not wrong to discuss and chat about AVB and even show concern as we did with H. Especial since he was proclaim as the would-be England manager.

Steve, there are times and means of doing so.

The time to criticise a manager is not this early in his tenure with the press baying for his blood. I don't know how else to get it through to people that we don't have all the facts. We don't know what AVB is thinking. We don't know what his plan is. We will never definitively know these things. We may be able to form an idea as to what those things are after a period of time by supposition. But it will never be definitive. And ti most certainly won't happen after only three games!

Add to that the method is not, ever, under any circumstance, to be so vociferous (I'm speaking generally here), so filled with venom, so hate-filled in some quarters. When the manager is dragged over the coals, the club is dragged over the coals.

We are being laughed at! We're not being laughed at for hiring AVB. We're being laughed at for our fickleness!!!

I am to the point of utter incredulity that people are putting their own spleen above the health of the club.

Even if AVB turns out to be a failure, what the fuck will that gain anyone??? Is there a medal, a competition, a cash prize that I've not been told about where the winner is the person who can slate the manager the most?

What is gained by picking apart his tactics? Can AVB hear them? Can he hear them??? For crying out loud, it's as much use as shouting at the telly!!! It might feel good but it doesn't do anything. Except in this case, there are a bunch of journo bastards desperate to get their pound of flesh. They're livid that AVB is smart and erudite. They're fucked off that their bosom buddy Harry has been fired.

Do you think that they're not on these boards? They are! How can they not be? The only qualification they need is an email address. For crying out loud, there's an SC-validated ITK out there called TheJournalist!

So they come on here, read all the shit we've been pouring out over the last few days and then trot off and add their own bile and dislike and sell it back to us!

For Christ sake's, you'd think we'd have the common sense to avoid giving them any more ammunition. You'd think we'd have the gumption to give the man some time! That we'd be wiling to wait more than three games before we start picking him apart!

But no, all we hear is monumentally retarded imbecilic SHIT like "we need to talk about it so we can solve the problems", or "I pay my money so I can boo if I want to", or, "it wasn't broke so why fix it?".

Do these people want us to see us continue to be raked over the coals by the sewer-press (not gutter-press, they've gone even lower)? Are these people so touched in the head that they can't see that what they're doing is like taking an axe to a boat trying to get through a perfect storm? How simple is it to understand? Are the rest of us speaking a foreign language? How much simpler can we make it??? Can these people not grow up a little bit and put their petty mindless gibbering imagined grievance against AVB or Daniel Levy aside for the sake of the club??? Is what they have to say so desperately vital that it has to be said despite what it does to TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR?

I get the feeling that I'll be accused of member abuse for this, but it needs saying:

To any journalists reading this board to use it for your next AVB attack: I hope that the most painful, harrowing, and gut-wrenching misfortunes befall you for the crap that you're unloading on people who's only crime is that their club hired someone you happen to dislike, you bunch of parasitical, good-for-nothing ****s!

 

[parklane1]

Jol could blame Santini, Ramos could blame Jol, Redknapp could blame Ramos.....and on and on

If AVB flops it will be because he couldn't manage the team and perhaps more importantly couldn't manage Levy.

It might help if all the supporters got behind him and the team, especially the dickheads who are already booing him after THREE games.

 

[rez9000]

Jol could blame Santini, Ramos could blame Jol, Redknapp could blame Ramos.....and on and on

If AVB flops it will be because he couldn't manage the team and perhaps more importantly couldn't manage Levy.

And with that point you've just argued yourself out of your own position.

Santini left, therefore Jol took over what he left behind, therefore any temporary dip in form was because of Santini.

If Jol wasn't (in the view of the board) doing so bad a job, why get rid of him. Therefore when Ramos took over from him, he would have had problems to deal with.

And on and on.

What we saw was a general uptick in performance when those managers took over. That happens almost every time as we all know. But then a little time into each of their tenures there was a dip in form too. It happened for every single one of the managers you named.

AVB took over during the off-season. Is it unreasonable to imagine that the dip in form we're now seeing is the one every manager has gone through?

 

[ultimateloner]

I think the biggest change is that a four man midfield is almost impossible to succeed at the highest level with. Even a 4-3-3 has a five man midfield when defending. But there are differences in the way this has succeeded from teams that build from the back (Barcelona), teams that press (Dortmund), teams that use inverted wingers (Bayern), teams that use 3 at the back (Napoli), teams that defend from possession (Juve), teams that work off transition (Real), teams that counter (Chelsea), etc.

There is also no end to the differences between those 5 man midfields as we talk more and more about bands.
4-1-4-1 (Germany)
4-2-2-1-1 (Arsenal)
4-1-3-1-1 (Chelsea)
4-6 (Spain)
4-3-2-1 (PSG)
and so forth

plus we get false 9's and 10's and teams that employ a winger on side but not the other such as with Ronaldo.

There so much that coaches are trying to tweak that tactics are far from stagnating, but evolving so much that its hard to keep up it seems. So I think there is less standardization than there was even 15 years ago when 4-4-2 was England, diamond was Italy, 4-3-3 was Holland and 3-5-2 was Germany and east.

i like this. devils in the detail.

 

[Luka Van der Bale]

Maybe harsher on the squad than I would be, but I think the decline started in February of 2011 and we had one winning streak that hid the frailties.

And the issue wasn't Harry, Levy or the players. Time had just caught up to an antiquated tactical system. Our basic setup has been based on a 4-4-2 with speed on the wings, two deep CM's and two forwards for a long time. But that 4-4-2, while fun back when Ramos was using it at Seville or even when Jol was using it here, was on it's last legs even then. The age of the 5 man midfield was already taking over then and the press became common soon after. The fact that Harry got VDV and used him as a second striker was pretty smart. It meant he could get a player as a 5th midfielder in a rigid system that can be overrun by the newer tactics that have 5 in the midfield. As we get further away from the tragedy of last year, its easier to see that what Harry was able to do with the structure in place (getting 4th, 5th and 4th) was actually outstanding. He's a good coach.

But he isn't the guy you want to rebuild the system from the ground floor up. AVB's system is on the cutting edge of today's tactics. That's good but it will take time. We are making a massive change here.

Look at Dortmund. Klopp introduced the press there, via a 4231, and while we see them as a very successful, he had two campaigns of 6th and 5th before he won the title. It took him time to get the system working and adjust the squad and I think the only players still significant by his first trophy from the team he inherited that was 13th were Wiedenfeller, Kehl (who was injured that first title but played all of last season) and Kuba. Sahin had been on loan and he brought him back into the fold. And Hummels had 10 games as a loanee in 07-08. He changed 9 players in the outfield over those 3 years via the academy or purchase (as Kuba went from starter to more of a sub). Subotic and Hummels were his first signings, but Bender, Kagawa, Barrios, etc came in the second window. It's hard to imagine but he actually got 6th with Tinga, Kringe, Owomoyela, Valdez and Hajnal. Wow! We have much more talent than that 07-08 Dormund side, but we can expect that there will continue to be changes as AVB tweaks.

Top man Happy.

 

[jonathanhotspur]

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/j575a7

Is this from the same guy who wrote that article last year about how Redknapp wasn't the man to take us forward?

 

[rich75]

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/j575a7

With the kind permission of Ewan Roberts who I tweeted this morning to ask if he would agree to my putting this on here for you all to read. Those of you who should have got a grip long before now may particularly benefit:

Many people have said that all AVB had to do to succeed was continue the good work done by Redknapp and build upon healthy foundations. But that’s just not the case. Totally ignoring the players we’ve lost for a moment, AVB’s having to repair rotten foundations, re-build the soul of the team, boost confidence and morale, get a losing team back to winning ways.

"rotten foundations" is a bit of a leap, but yes, then end of last season, the loss of third place will have dented confidence. Although it should also be said that the last 3 or 4 games of last season weren't actually that bad

Our form now is a hangover from our form at the end of last season. AVB was given a team that was rock bottom in so many respects. We may have finished fourth, but that did not adequately represent just how truly awful we’d been in 2012.

To be honest, that could be true or it could be bollocks. We've had shit runs of form at the end of a season and then started off fine the next and of course sometimes we've started off badly. No way of knowing really

If you take the second half of our season – the second set of 19 games – we won just seven matches. A win percentage of just 36%...and three of those wins (none of which were convincing), ( convincing or not is scarcely relevant unless you're going to take into account the losses that were undeserved ) came in our final four games. ( which somewhat negates the "bad form hangover" argument ) If the league existed just over that period of time we’d have been in 9th position, ( it doesn't so who gives a shit ) behind Wigan, Fulham, Everton and the usual suspects.

Those figures include an additional game for us compared to all the other sides (the postponed Everton match @ WHL, because of the riots). If those three points are discounted, we drop to 11th place.

Seriously, a dodgy argument is now being backed up by relying on the fixture list?

There’s been lots of people saying “mid-table here we come” and such, well mid-table’s been beckoning for a while. We’ve had the form of a mid-table side for 5 months prior to AVB’s arrival. This isn’t his fault, our poor early season form isn’t exclusively of his doing.

No, it certainly isn't, we've lost good players, signed a bunch of new ones, changed then system, changed the tactics and changed the manager. All of which are more valid arguments for bad from than whatever the previous manager did or didn't do

If you look at the nine game run from the 5-2 loss at the Emirates in February until the 1-0 loss to QPR in April – a period that represents almost a quarter of the season – we were 19th in the form guide. Played 9, won 1, drew 3, lost 5. 6 points from a possible 27. Goals scored = 9, goals conceded = 14. 0.67 ppg. Only Wolves were worse off. Only two sides (Wolves and Norwich) conceded more goals.

Yeah, yeah, we get the point, we had a really bad run of form last year.

Five teams conceded five goals twice or more in a single game in the league last year, and we were one of them. Norwich, QPR, Bolton and ourselves conceded five goals twice, Wolves conceded five goals three times. Two of the five teams are now in the Championship.

So what? Arsenal let in 8, they still only dropped 3 points because of it. Losing 2 games means we dropped 6 points and nothing else. Whilst conceding 5 goals isn't good, it has no relevance to playing Norwich and West Brom at home 12 months later

We’ve been crap for a while. Not only is AVB having to prepare for life after King, Modric and van der Vaart, he’s also having to turn around the fortunes of a club that has been in a six month slump. Frankly, given the form of the side it’s easy to see why AVB is happy to undertake wholesale changes to the squad. And it’s also clear that it will take time for AVB to mend a broken team. And that's what AVB inherited: a broken team, not a title-challenger.

Bollocks, he inherited a team that spent one half of last season contending 2nd and 3rd place and one half playing like a drain. That isn't a broken team, it's an inconsistent one. Is this seriously suggesting that given the choice AVB wouldn't have wanted to hold onto Modric and quite possibly VDV as well or was he "happy" to show Modric the door?

Fuck me, I'm not even against AVB but the cock being spouted on this forum is ridiculous. In one corner there's a bunch who've got the hump over Redknapps sacking and are so myopic they're just happy to have a go at the new bloke 3 games in, whilst in the other corner are those who wanted Redknapp out and now want to defend their new saviour by yelling about how shit Redknapp was and how nothing could possibly be dangerous with hiring AVB. Somewhere in the middle is everyone else who whilst being aware that we sacked a bloke who did very well for us and took a gamble on the new manager are happy to give him time to get it right.

Nutters the lot of you.

 

[kdspur]

Bored with this AVB talk already. Would like him just to be able to get on with his job. Good luck to him. We will find out what he's made of in the next month or two.

COYS

so new manager in novemeber maybe, start of december so levy can tarin up before we start the fun in january again...

 

[NEVILLEB]

If AVB flops then Levy surely has to consider his position. This was a big gamble on his half and it has to work.

You have to think that not signing Moutinho has made AVB's task all the more difficult.

I haven't booed AVB. I am posting on a football forum. Get some perspective.

 

[ethanedwards]

Really, Stav?

Are you saying that supporting the manager, even if it's a nominal support while the ultimate press lynchmob is out to hang our manager carries the hallmarks of some sort of Thought Police?

Are you saying that some of our fans can't see how much damage they do to the club's reputation by booing during the third game of the season? And that calling them on it by defending our manager is tantamount to censorship?

Are you saying that because the defenders of AVB have the loudest voices that they are somehow in the wrong? Maybe their voices are loudest because they care more about defending our manager than in tearing him down?

And I apologise for being a pedant, but if 1 negative equates to 5 positives, doesn't that suggest that perhaps the majority view is with those who are defending AVB and that that makes the negative posters, er, wrong. And just to really drive home the point, isn't majority rule actually the basis of democracy?

But, hey, if all that makes me a member of the 'Politburo', then all I can say is, "Comrades! Spurs Fans! Unite!"