Read this and understand (you know who you are)

[Spurger King]

I'd also add that I don't want to turn this into an argument as I'm happy to have a debate.

I don't always agree with your posts SP, but most of the time I find a lot of sense in them, and you always tend to offer a detailed explanation about why you feel the way you do. Much like with BC - a poster I disagree with on a couple of player assessments, but one I respect due to how he puts his points across.

I suspect the key to our differences on the strength of the squad will come down to (as you've already suggested) the importance of versatility - another reason why I'm surprised AVB didn't do more to keep Pienaar (though I guess he had his heart set on a return to Everton).

The problem for me is that we only need injuries to Adebayor and Dembele to find ourselves in trouble. I can only imagine how good our squad would be right now if we had Moutinho and Leandro as well.

 

[StartingPrice]

1) And that's fine that you think that. I don't agree though. I think as the season progresses we're going to start looking paper thin.

2) I've formed feelings of optimism about players. I've also seen Townsend a few times and thought he has potential. How many times have you seen him play premiership football? If we're talking about the potential success or failure of a premiership squad then potential and optimism only count for so much.
You described it as:

3) I only noticed it because my concern is that the squad is too thin. If you meant fitter, well that's another issue altogether, and one I'm inclined to agree with you on.

4) It's not that clear though. I hhaven't once mentioned how well I think we'll do this season. Personally I feel that if we are lucky with injuries and can keep our starting team consistent we'll have a great chance of doing well. It strikes me that for AVB the system is the star that creates the chances, rather than one or two individuals. It's a huge shame that we missed out on Moutinho as I feel he would have made this much easier to achieve, but I certainly think we have the players to compete this season - provided they stay fit.

5) It's not about being proved right or wrong. I'd be pretty pissed off to be 'proved right' in any case as it would mean that our season had been scuppered by not having enough depth in the squad to cope with injuries and suspensions.

6) I responded to what you wrote. You questioned how I could interpret what you said as meaning that. I quoted your sentence which clearly showed why I would interpret it that way. If it was a typo then of course that changes things in terms of how I would NOW interpret it, but you thought I had poorly interpreted you when in fact I was commenting on something you (rightly or wrongly) wrote.

7) I consider the summary of my post as being "facile" to be patronising, dismissive, inaccurate, and generally insulting. Part of my job is delivering comprehensive dissertation feedback to students and all the tutors have to be very careful when it comes to the language we use. Even if an essay was 'facile' I would never refer to it that way as it's usually used in a derogatory way. Seeing as I didn't consider it to be facile, your use of that word was in fact doubly insulting. In fact it smacks of being supercilious.

8) My best days are all ahead of me

1) All I said in the first place was that my opinion was different to yours on the relative strength, or otherwise, of the squad, viz. last season.

2) As seen as I rarely miss I match, I would guess I've seen him in every appearance for the first team. Clearly potential and optimism can only count for so much, but that I didn't state my estimation of his potential as being proof-positive of how strong our squad was. I said I personally rate him and then went on to say that AVB has assessed the squad and perhaps feels he can rely on some of the younglings, and so maybe you are seeing gaps were none our there. Whether your opinion is that he is up for the task, or not, is a different matter - there is a difference between saying that there is no cover at all, and saying that the cover may not be up for the task.

3) Clearly that is my bad. I may have said it, originally, being tongue-in-cheek (about Fatty Krankjar), but the general tenet of my argument is that the incoming players are fitter and less injury prone, and I'm sure you know that.

4) You may not have said we will do poorly, but it really doesn't take much imagination to extrapolate from your frequent statements that the squad is too thin and weaker than last season, carried over several threads, to a situation where it has serious repurcussions on our performance. Indeed, if lack of depth in squad was one of the causes of our alarming dip in form last season, as many assert, I cannot see but that it will be interpreted like that. Maybe that isn't what you mean, or maybe you are making a null hypothesis for the sake of pursuing the implications of having a thin squad (as you believe).

5) I never said you would enjoy being proven right - I said that we will likely see whether the squad is stronger or weaker over the course of the season, and if it is weaker you qualms will have been justified (in layman's terms, you will be proven right). Another non-issue, really, SK.

6) No. You quote a part of my sense string, knowing full well that that wasn't my intended meaning by any stretch of the imagination. I don't even know why you are pursuing that. You showed you can be pissy if you want, presumably because you inferred an insult where none was made. But FFS, I know and you know that there should have been a question mark there, and that, given my level of qualification (of which you are fully aware), the most obvious conclusion, without me even stating it, was that it was a typo/accidental omission. And, hey, look, I spotted a typo in your post, here - am I going to get pissy about it? No. I'm sure I've made a few in this very post - but, there again, I put it in context, it's a fucking football forum, nothing more and I refuse to spend hours composing and recomposing posts of a fucking football forum.

7) I meant nothing more than that the taking the easy route to answering my post produced nothing but two disconnected lists with no reference points, and no effort to make any elucidation whatsoever other than to assert again your subjective viewpoint harldy answered the point I was making. I then showed how I would produce an answer. Would you contest that your post was an easier interpretation and mine more complex?
But there again, being aware of the literal meaning of the word and the etymology (and conversant in French), I tend to use it very precisely, too. OED:

facile



adjective
1 ignoring the complexities of an issue; superficial.
2 (of success) easily achieved.

DERIVATIVES

facilely
adverb
facileness
noun
ORIGIN

C15: from French, or from Latin
facilis 'easy'.

I felt that you did give an easy answer, I felt that you were ignoring the complexities of the issue, I felt that your answer was superficial. I would refer, again, to my post comparing incomings and outgoings. I think I provided a complex answer and you ignored the complexities of the issue - which is why I described it, within the literal meaning of the word, as facile.

Like I said, you inferred an insult where none was intended. When I want to insult someone I know can hit back, I prepare the ground far more thoroughly than that. If it makes you feel any better, I feel that you have slipped into patronisation and resent it, deeply

8) Yes, but don't tell the juvies

 

[StartingPrice]

I'd also add that I don't want to turn this into an argument as I'm happy to have a debate.

I don't always agree with your posts SP, but most of the time I find a lot of sense in them, and you always tend to offer a detailed explanation about why you feel the way you do. Much like with BC - a poster I disagree with on a couple of player assessments, but one I respect due to how he puts his points across.

I suspect the key to our differences on the strength of the squad will come down to (as you've already suggested) the importance of versatility - another reason why I'm surprised AVB didn't do more to keep Pienaar (though I guess he had his heart set on a return to Everton).

The problem for me is that we only need injuries to Adebayor and Dembele to find ourselves in trouble. I can only imagine how good our squad would be right now if we had Moutinho and Leandro as well.

And last season, an injury to Adebayor and one to Modric would have, likewise, left us in trouble. Just, well I would rather be left with Dempsey and Defoe than Pav/Saha and Defoe. The debate isn't whether the squad has deficiencies, or whether we could be in serious trouble with a few injuries/suspensions, or whether it would have been stronger if we had got Leandro and Moutinho*, but whether this squad is stronger than last seasons.

*Clearly it would be, and I was somewhat disappointed that we couldn't finalise at least one of those deals.

 

[luka loopy]

How is replacing Modric and VDV for Dempsey and Dembele progress?

VDV's transfer was openly discussed by Redknapp and Levy.

We are an outside bet for 4th spot. The same as we were in 2006.

No in 2006 we were not even considered to be top 4 it was only towards the end of the season when we were still in fourth that the media (begrudgingly) took us seriously. Abit like newcastle this season.

Now we are always considered among the usual suspects for top four. We have since had Milan, Madrid and Maicon!

If were stick with avb we will have a tactical system. not 8 players giving the ball to VdV modric or bale and hoping that something will happen. You also didnt mention Lloris who media bs aside is going to be an epic keeper for us and vertoghen the dutch player of the year.

This is progress. Im 26 so ive never experienced the dizzy heights of the real glory glory days bu slow season start aside,t this is exciting.

 

[vegassd]

I posted a list of the incoming and outgoing players as a direct (and obvious to most people) follow-on from your statement. In fact you could say I listed all the players we have bought and sold in order to see if your statement stands out more starkly. I presented the information you referred to, and offered a brief statement to show how I don't think it implies that the squad has improved in the way you believe.

I don't see any value in implying that because we have lost Nelson, Saha and Bentley without replacing them that we are weaker. Because those guys weren't going to play, so how has their loss made us any weaker in real terms?

You said that you would prefer to have the 'out' list at Spurs rather than the 'in' list but when you rationalise it that sounds pretty crazy! Modric and VDV we had little choice about so you can remove them. King was (I hate to say) a ghost of himself so you can remove him. Look at the list again now and tell me you still want the 'out' list.

So on paper our squad may look weaker because there are fewer players in it, but we can only ever play 14 players in one game so we don't need 35 senior players knocking about the place. We're not playing in the CL so we don't need our first XI playing twice a week

I personally prefer a slimmer squad of better quality players than a large squad of above average players. Modric and VDV are huge losses, no doubt about it, but when the whole underlying point of this thread is about recent transfer business and progress as a club you have to realise that those two were going to go no matter what. Making a season-to-season comparison of playing staff isn't really fair because there was no way that we were going to find like for like replacements for those 2.

Further to that, implying that Levy is shit because our first XI is weaker than last season (which was becoming the theme) is painfully short-sighted. It's tantamount to red top writing, where you find the most one-dimensional issue around that a D-minus readership can understand and use it to put forward an argument.

You write far better than a red top by the way... I'm not having a dig at you, I just get pretty miffed when this dumb stuff just stirs up the anti-Levy brigade.

 

[Spurger King]

I don't see any value in implying that because we have lost Nelson, Saha and Bentley without replacing them that we are weaker. Because those guys weren't going to play, so how has their loss made us any weaker in real terms?

You said that you would prefer to have the 'out' list at Spurs rather than the 'in' list but when you rationalise it that sounds pretty crazy! Modric and VDV we had little choice about so you can remove them. King was (I hate to say) a ghost of himself so you can remove him. Look at the list again now and tell me you still want the 'out' list.

So on paper our squad may look weaker because there are fewer players in it, but we can only ever play 14 players in one game so we don't need 35 senior players knocking about the place. We're not playing in the CL so we don't need our first XI playing twice a week

I personally prefer a slimmer squad of better quality players than a large squad of above average players. Modric and VDV are huge losses, no doubt about it, but when the whole underlying point of this thread is about recent transfer business and progress as a club you have to realise that those two were going to go no matter what. Making a season-to-season comparison of playing staff isn't really fair because there was no way that we were going to find like for like replacements for those 2.

Further to that, implying that Levy is shit because our first XI is weaker than last season (which was becoming the theme) is painfully short-sighted. It's tantamount to red top writing, where you find the most one-dimensional issue around that a D-minus readership can understand and use it to put forward an argument.

You write far better than a red top by the way... I'm not having a dig at you, I just get pretty miffed when this dumb stuff just stirs up the anti-Levy brigade.

I think Saha would be useful, but I agree that Nelsen and Bentley didn't really add anything. With Modric, King and VDV it was more of a hypothetical comparison. I don't blame anyone for us no longer having those players. Modric was always off, King as you say was a ghost of his former self by the end of the season, and VDV (despite not kicking up a fuss like Modric) must have wanted to move for personal reasons. Still, it doesn't change the fact that they were present at the start of last season, and as a result of not replacing them with players of the same or better quality our squad was stronger then than it is now.

It's a tricky issue because on one hand I would feel more comfortable knowing that if our squad got depleted by injuries we'd have players like Bassong, Gio, Saha, Pienaar and/or Kranjcar to call upon, in addition to the players we signed this summer. However on the other hand I can recognise that we had a lot of players on high wages that were not happy merely being contingency plans. Perhaps the bloated size of the squad last year has given me a false impression of the squad depth being reduced, when in fact it's a necessary clear-out that frees up more finances.

I don't think too many people are suggesting Levy is shit because our first XI is weaker than last season - at least I'm certainly not. It's frustrating that we didn't get Moutinho and I'll admit that at the time I thought it was a huge cock-up to let VDV go without having Moutinho sorted. I also think we needed a back-up for Adebayor (I know that technically Dempsey can play there, but he's not an ideal replacement). However Levy's done an amazing job over the last few seasons, and if players like Vertonghen, Lloris, Dembele and Sigurdsson can live up to their potential we'll have a fantastic team again this year.

 

[Maske2g]

I totally agree with the first post and have said many times that our bad form started before the court case, and before England at home to Wolves on jan 16th.

I'd like to offer some possible reason for the start of that and the continuation of it. Apart from the obvious players sold.

1) During the purple patch we hit, when we went 11 undefeated, we had a far better first 11 than any we could have put out since, and that form could have been the exception to the norm. We may well have JUST gone on a great run (just as the mighty wigan did at the end of the season), and normal business resumed after. King was an integral part of that run too. After that he got injured, and a fit King is hugely missed, and now alas, he is gone.

2) Some players in our team, who are deemed worldbeaters, maybe aren't the players some think they are for various reason, and were possibly riding on the coat tails of that run.

Kyle Walker - is technically very average, and he seems quite thick on the pitch. He plays some mystifying passes. He doesn't use his pace going forward with the ball, i.e he checks his runs when attacking a full back, at which point he gets lost. And defensively, whilst he has improved a bit, he gets out of problems because he is probably in the top 10 athletes in the league. Not a bad thing, but not a a great player.s

Sandro - his passing is woeful. I hate to use the term "every second touch is a tackle" but the lowest common denominator always loves a player who puts his foot in, and it's a shame that Sandro has to do that more than most due to his own mistakes in the first place. Sloppy.

Gareth Bale - Incredible. But, mentally, is he up to the challenge? Has he strung together 3 good performances in a row in 2012? I don't care how he is used, when you have that much ability and pace, you find a way to make an impact if your that good.

Aaron Lennon. 25% great 25% injured, 25% throwing his arms in the air in a huff 25% disinterested. 5% on the lash...105 yes....

3) Starting this season with Jermaine Defoe as our only forward was incompetent.

4) Parker may not be a great footballer, Im not his biggest fan, but he clearly is inspiring on the pitch. Our team is "soft in the middle" to say the least. Livermore could be good, he has far too little beef in his bollocks though.

5) We're predictable at the moment. Everyone moans when Bale comes inside. This season he's spent large periods of the game hugging the touchline and he's not getting enough of the ball. BAE is not getting far enough up the pitch often enough either. Our play is ponderous and people are scared to take chances. It's not a winning attitude.

6) Have we ever really recovered from Defoe's miss at the Etihad? Did the massive gulf in elation and deflation casued by that 90 seconds of football have such an impact on our players, that they considered themselves also rans, and the subsequent run of poor form has left them stuck in a rut?

We still can be a very good team, I still see a lot of positives, and we just really need a couple of wins on the spin. I think we are looking like we're close to dominating games, but are lacking the confidence to do it. We've been so nervy this year. I must admit, I expected AVB to get more out of our better players, and it's not happening at the minute. Time will tell, and I hope he does.

 

[vegassd]

Perhaps the bloated size of the squad last year has given me a false impression of the squad depth being reduced, when in fact it's a necessary clear-out that frees up more finances.

I reckon this is probably the case for a lot of people. We were spoilt for choice really, but that didn't necessarily translate to performance on the pitch. For example, I don't think that Pav, Saha, Gio or Bassong would have even made the bench for today's game. Pienaar and Krancjar would be in with a shout, and there's a case to be made for the others certainly, but at the end of the day we would have had far too many players.

There is the threat of injuries of course, but if we had 10 or so senior players on decent wages who were never making the bench then it's just not sustainable for a club our size. If we lose Defoe, Ade and Dempsey all at the same time then we're in trouble, but the same goes for any team that loses 3 strikers - especially in a 433.

The Moutinho miss is the one that bugs me too. With him in the team I think we would have been incredibly formidable. Sig's form has also been frustrating because I thought he could fill in centrally and on the flanks. But I agree, if the new guys all live up to potential then we will have a great team on our hands.

 

[ultimateloner]

Don't agree with any of your points

y not?