Player Watch - Tanguy Ndombele

[Ronwol196061]

Alright let's see but suggestions saying Poch is detrimental to Ndombele which has no foundation isn't a wait and see attitude. Poch is getting a lot wrong at the moment let's not add suggestions with no basis into the mix.

I'll leave that open. Because we need solutions in the short term and I'd rather have Ndombele hitting 3 through balls in one half that working on his stamina for the whole game right now

 

[Ronwol196061]

All of our players attack and defend, yes, and Ndombele already does that very effectively

He has had a hard time playing two ways for a big portion of the game
If you are right then Poch is a complete idiot to not have started him vrs Liverpool

 

[JollyHappy]

Ndombele was totally out of his comfort zone defending against Bayern and I'm sure would have been the same against Liverpool. But I expect to see him in the next 6 games at least.

 

[Ronwol196061]

Ndombele was totally out of his comfort zone defending against Bayern and I'm sure would have been the same against Liverpool. But I expect to see him in the next 6 games at least.

Against Bayern he was throwing himself forward and that was a good thing
Winks though was back by himself getting hammered as were the backs
There should have been two mids behind Ndombele not one

 

[Ronwol196061]

And thats my point.You can think perfection and have everyone up and back for 60 minutes all day but if you have a talent like Ndombele (how many of our players have even tried to dribble once?or hit a telling pass in a flash?) You would play to his tune. Surround him with finishers and defenders.You cant lose.

 

[heelspurs]

You know I always felt that about Eriksen.When it's there he does take it..or did...but when it didnt he can be as conservative as anyone..he gives teams always time to park the bus

So true. It's because he can't (or doesn't because he is protecting himself from the hit) take the ball on the half-turn. So unless there is obvious space in front of him his first touch is away/backward to get an extra half-beat of time. Ndom, Dembele, and all other proper MFers can effectively utilize their body to shield, take a picture before receiving the ball, and take their first touch to space ie the direction opposite that of the most pressing defender and not just reflexively backward away from play thus killing any forward momentum.

Ndombele and GLC give us another dimension as they can effectively handle all of the typical MF expectations. I don't know how many have noticed but Ndom has surprised so many of our players with passes that they clearly not prepared for because this is a new experience for them. They need to buck up their ideas because the balls are coming. Poch does too. He needs to familiarize himself with the things that actual footballers do.

 

[ClintEastwould]

So true. It's because he can't (or doesn't because he is protecting himself from the hit) take the ball on the half-turn. So unless there is obvious space in front of him his first touch is away/backward to get an extra half-beat of time. Ndom, Dembele, and all other proper MFers can effectively utilize their body to shield, take a picture before receiving the ball, and take their first touch to space ie the direction opposite that of the most pressing defender and not just reflexively backward away from play thus killing any forward momentum.

Ndombele and GLC give us another dimension as they can effectively handle all of the typical MF expectations. I don't know how many have noticed but Ndom has surprised so many of our players with passes that they clearly not prepared for because this is a new experience for them. They need to buck up their ideas because the balls are coming. Poch does too. He needs to familiarize himself with the things that actual footballers do.

This is such a good and on point post!

 

[heelspurs]

So we're now suggesting that the person who from the players own mouth was the deciding factor in joining us might be detrimental to said player.

It's really not that hard to work out. Being an effective salesperson and an effective teacher/leader are two very different things requiring two very different skillsets. Would you automatically assume a person that sold you a car would also be able to instruct you how to fix it? Poch has to instill in him that which he has resisted thus far in his career. That is a delicate situation. There are reports that Poch speaks French and the initial convincing/relationship will help but it's still delicate.

I actually believe Ndombele sitting a little deeper and arriving later to play will expand his game even more but Poch has to sell it. And I say that as someone who has seen at least 90% of his games at Lyon (les gones since 1996).

 

[Ronwol196061]

So true. It's because he can't (or doesn't because he is protecting himself from the hit) take the ball on the half-turn. So unless there is obvious space in front of him his first touch is away/backward to get an extra half-beat of time. Ndom, Dembele, and all other proper MFers can effectively utilize their body to shield, take a picture before receiving the ball, and take their first touch to space ie the direction opposite that of the most pressing defender and not just reflexively backward away from play thus killing any forward momentum.

Ndombele and GLC give us another dimension as they can effectively handle all of the typical MF expectations. I don't know how many have noticed but Ndom has surprised so many of our players with passes that they clearly not prepared for because this is a new experience for them. They need to buck up their ideas because the balls are coming. Poch does too. He needs to familiarize himself with the things that actual footballers do.

I agree with that. For the longest time Kane and also Son..have had to make things happen the hard way.
You watch Liverpool or City and its smooth they are getting fed the ball forward.
Ndombele and hopefully Lo Celso will do more than flicks and long drawn out short pass sequences...they will keep is fluid and create space with their direct passes. We havent seen dribbling,we havent seen through balls. Kane and Son will be able to enjoy them hopefully if Poch gets it right.
For that to happen the DMs have to control the defensive side

 

[Ronwol196061]

I actually believe Ndombele sitting a little deeper and arriving later to play will expand his game even more but Poch has to sell it. And I say that as someone who has seen at least 90% of his games at Lyon (les gones since 1996).

That's great like to hear more about what you saw in his development

 

[Ronwol196061]

t's really not that hard to work out. Being an effective salesperson and an effective teacher/leader are two very different things requiring two very different skillsets. Would you automatically assume a person that sold you a car would also be able to instruct you how to fix it? Poch has to instill in him that which he has resisted thus far in his career. That is a delicate situation. There are reports that Poch speaks French and the initial convincing/relationship will help but it's still delicate.

That's an interesting point,I agree Poch is a people person and a very good salesman,when it comes to teaching I think he is very one tracked. He also,I think, has no time for those that don't agree with him and also finds it difficult to change his system. He is loyal but really loyal to his system. With NDombele maybe they will find a happy medium. BUt I hope NDombele is as strong minded as Poch in the sense that if he trusts his own talent that he will only push him so far. NDombele is a great attacking talent.His through passes and dribbling are sensational, yes he has to get fitter and yes he has to be part of the system but not at the expense of his great talent. If Ndombele is strong and respectful,Poch can learn (I hope) too

 

[Japhet]

So true. It's because he can't (or doesn't because he is protecting himself from the hit) take the ball on the half-turn. So unless there is obvious space in front of him his first touch is away/backward to get an extra half-beat of time. Ndom, Dembele, and all other proper MFers can effectively utilize their body to shield, take a picture before receiving the ball, and take their first touch to space ie the direction opposite that of the most pressing defender and not just reflexively backward away from play thus killing any forward momentum.

Ndombele and GLC give us another dimension as they can effectively handle all of the typical MF expectations. I don't know how many have noticed but Ndom has surprised so many of our players with passes that they clearly not prepared for because this is a new experience for them. They need to buck up their ideas because the balls are coming. Poch does too. He needs to familiarize himself with the things that actual footballers do.

Soldado suffered from completely the opposite. To start off, he used to make great moves to find a bit of space but never (ever) got found with a telling pass. Eventually he gave up making the runs. Was sacked off and labelled as a flop.

 

[Rout-Ledge]

Soldado suffered from completely the opposite. To start off, he used to make great moves to find a bit of space but never (ever) got found with a telling pass. Eventually he gave up making the runs. Was sacked off and labelled as a flop.

Soldado was labelled a flop because he was a flop. Classic case actually. The fans never ever got on his back though. He was full-throatedly supported until the end.

The excuse being made for him was that he wasn't going to be useful unless he had golden chances consistently put on a plate for him, but if he did then he'd clean up. Then when he did start missing good chances the excuse changed to 'his confidence is shot from not having any chances put on a plate for him previously'.

It was all a complete load of rubbish, of course. Kane came in and showed him what a striker is supposed to do.

 

[Shadydan]

Soldado was labelled a flop because he was a flop. Classic case actually. The fans never ever got on his back though. He was full-throatedly supported until the end.

The excuse being made for him was that he wasn't going to be useful unless he had golden chances consistently put on a plate for him, but if he did then he'd clean up. Then when he did start missing good chances the excuse changed to 'his confidence is shot from not having any chances put on a plate for him previously'.

It was all a complete load of rubbish, of course. Kane came in and showed him what a striker is supposed to do.

How do you go from banging them in (30 goals) in La Liga to useless in the Premier League where he scored 6 in his first season I believe and some were pens? It's not as simplistic saying that he was a bad player. You make it sound like he had no ability at all, obviously he did. He was playing in a team which deployed negative tactics as opposed to the season before where Valencia would play though him. Liverpool and Man City went ape shit that season both scoring over 100 goals (we scored 55) you're telling me that would have suffered the same or similar fate with them, you would have at least seem him play up to his ability.

It was a bad buy, that's all

 

[Japhet]

How do you go from banging them in (30 goals) in La Liga to useless in the Premier League where he scored 6 in his first season I believe and some were pens? It's not as simplistic saying that he was a bad player. You make it sound like he had no ability at all, obviously he did. He was playing in a team which deployed negative tactics as opposed to the season before where Valencia would play though him. Liverpool and Man City went ape shit that season both scoring over 100 goals (we scored 55) you're telling me that would have suffered the same or similar fate with them, you would have at least seem him play up to his ability.

It was a bad buy, that's all

It was a bad matchup for sure. Soldado was used to having the ball played into spaces whereas we tried to play everything to feet. We never tried to adapt to what he was used to at Valencia and he couldn't adapt to us either.

 

[Ronwol196061]

It was a bad matchup for sure. Soldado was used to having the ball played into spaces whereas we tried to play everything to feet. We never tried to adapt to what he was used to at Valencia and he couldn't adapt to us either.

There were times when the counter worked and there was tons of space from that or when we pressed in midfield and won the ball but often we lacked getting the ball to the strikers.
Kane is a different kettle.He can dig the ball out and make something from nothing,Son at times does too. But service from our mids were never easy.
Eriksens back and forth short passes often tightened defences more (he did get a lot of assists overall being the only creative player)
I'm convinced of Ndombele being able to find that space that strikers need. We should play to that and protect the defence with two mids that can back him up while he merauds
Soldier may have enjoyed Ndombeles distribution

 

[Japhet]

There were times when the counter worked and there was tons of space from that or when we pressed in midfield and won the ball but often we lacked getting the ball to the strikers.
Kane is a different kettle.He can dig the ball out and make something from nothing,Son at times does too. But service from our mids were never easy.
Eriksens back and forth short passes often tightened defences more (he did get a lot of assists overall being the only creative player)
I'm convinced of Ndombele being able to find that space that strikers need. We should play to that and protect the defence with two mids that can back him up while he merauds
Soldier may have enjoyed Ndombeles distribution

That was my point. On Ndombele, I'd like to see him and Lo Celso on either side of a good defensive midfielder. His reputation is that he switches off defensively so I think 2 in CM could cause problems. I'd also say That I can see our creativity coming from deeper now and as such don't so that much need for a traditional 10 such as Eriksen. Ndombele and Lo Celso both have plenty of ability to bring the ball up the pitch as opposed to trying to do it all by passing.

 

[Rout-Ledge]

How do you go from banging them in (30 goals) in La Liga to useless in the Premier League where he scored 6 in his first season I believe and some were pens? It's not as simplistic saying that he was a bad player. You make it sound like he had no ability at all, obviously he did. He was playing in a team which deployed negative tactics as opposed to the season before where Valencia would play though him. Liverpool and Man City went ape shit that season both scoring over 100 goals (we scored 55) you're telling me that would have suffered the same or similar fate with them, you would have at least seem him play up to his ability.

It was a bad buy, that's all

Didn't Morientes come over to Liverpool a few years before and suffer a very similar fate?

I guess sometimes players just aren't suited to certain leagues. Clearly he was not a bad player, but he was clearly a very limited player and had found a particular groove that worked well for him at Valencia and he was in the optimum conditions for him to do well.

 

[Shadydan]

Didn't Morientes come over to Liverpool a few years before and suffer a very similar fate?

I guess sometimes players just aren't suited to certain leagues. Clearly he was not a bad player, but he was clearly a very limited player and had found a particular groove that worked well for him at Valencia and he was in the optimum conditions for him to do well.

I never really subscribe to the 'not suited to other leagues' mantra, football is a global game played under the same rules on the same pitches etc...

You can not be suited to a team which could happen to any player, even players that move to teams in the same league but I think it's just lazy to suggest that he wasn't suited to this league IMO.

 

[Timberwolf]

Soldado was labelled a flop because he was a flop. Classic case actually. The fans never ever got on his back though. He was full-throatedly supported until the end.

The excuse being made for him was that he wasn't going to be useful unless he had golden chances consistently put on a plate for him, but if he did then he'd clean up. Then when he did start missing good chances the excuse changed to 'his confidence is shot from not having any chances put on a plate for him previously'.

It was all a complete load of rubbish, of course. Kane came in and showed him what a striker is supposed to do.

The big problem with Soldado was that he was the least suited striker imaginable for an AVB team. I remember watching the Youtube vids of him at Valencia when he signed and trying to ignore the fact that practically ALL of his goals were first time shots inside the box. Under AVB we had incredibly slow build up and played the percentages, relying on long range strikes and moments of individual brilliance - despite our league position we barely created any clear cut chances inside the box around that time. Someone like Negredo would've been a much wiser signing but instead Soldado was left chasing shadows and asked to do things he wasn't good at. Before long his confidence was completely shot.

By the time AVB left old Bobby Soldier was already a bit of a joke figure and we never really made an effort to implement a system that suited him - Sherwood was an old school 4-4-2 man and that didn't really work for Soldado either.

But yeah...he was also just a bit shit.