Great tactical analysis of AVB (or why I think will Finish Top 4!)

[Eric_s]

All far too complicated for me.

Football is a simple game complicated by people too often.

Players are not that bright. You could see that on Saturday against Norwich. Fill their head with instructions and they don't know what to do and looked scared on the pitch. Its not natural to them and therefore do not act naturally on the pitch. They are confused and think I will just get the ball away from me so I can then get into the position I need to be in next.

This is what it looked like to me for the first half against Norwich. A tactical genius teaching a bunch of wallies. Our players had no idea what to do. Take away the 'system' and go to 4-4-2 and the faster football came back briefly. Go back to the system and we retracted and lost our confidence again.

Since AVB has joined Spurs I have been a consistent voice about not changing too much too soon. Little steps lead to large leaps. A three year contract means he needs to start well to be able to implement his changes in the long run.

he can do all of the above in the long run but he must do things slowly. he didn't do this at Chelsea and look what happened when he left and they went back to their old way of playing.

AVB has had one season of brilliance. He won the league undefeated and won the Europa League too. Looking at this slightly more closely - he won the league in Portugal with Hulk, Moutinho and mostly Falcao. He won the Europa league because most of the teams (including us) don't take it seriously. He was in the Europa League mainly because of their poor Champions League showing. He lost in the Champs league 5-0 at the Emirates and it could have been a lot more...Porto were a shambles.

Harry may have had his critics but his simple philosophy gained the players trust and enthusiasm. Until the England debacle they wanted to do exactly as he and his coaching team asked. Famously telling Pav just to run around a bit. You may all laugh and say that's just nonsense, but its not. Pav scored, we won and our slump stopped and we went on 3 years of great flowing football.

AVB needs to take a step back and implement his philosophies slowly and bring his players in to do this over time. He does not have the players with the mentality to do this. As JD has said, none of the players have played this way before - which to start a season like this is very, very worrying indeed.

I wish AVB the best and will support him but things need to change and change very very quickly.

Cue the negative rep once again

One of the reason England is a crap football team is that some people think football is just a simple sport where you go out there and do your stuff.
The players do not need a degree in football tactics. They only need to build up their fitness and develop tactical discipline. They did to learn their role in defense, attack in the tactical setup.

 

[JimmyG2]

Love this tactical stuff and credit to those that understand it.
I'm with the players here and tend to get that glazed look while they are straining to get on the pitch and get on the ball.
You cannot force experienced players far out of their comfort zone and a clever manager will compromise
between his preferred system and the natural abilities and tendencies of the players he has,
or hasn't in the case of a manager relying on the negotiating skills of their chairman.
Younger players are more malleable.
But players are not born into positions they develop and expand their potential.

Some players take time to find their most effective positions and some like Bale fight what we all know.

Van Der vaart is a gifted and natural player that played in different roles at
Ajax, Real Madrid, Spurs and importantly for Holland.
Modric is playing much further forward at Real at the moment and played deeper for Croatia
than he did in the main for Spurs.
That's not tactical analysis that's just watching with my eyes open.

There's a tactical conspiracy between the manager and the player.
The manager/coach reads out the shopping list his wife gave him
and the player pretends to listen and nods his head occasionally.
Then goes on and runs about a bit.
Harry got it spot on.

 

[whitestreak]

Oops made amistake

 

[Leachie]

Part of AVB's challenge is communicating these complex instructions to the "thick" players. Reading that article, it comes across as quite complex. It can very easily be simplified during coaching and when giving individual instructions.

 

[kaz Hirai]

I wish there was real football on this weekend, screw England

 

[Spurger King]

Part of AVB's challenge is communicating these complex instructions to the "thick" players. Reading that article, it comes across as quite complex. It can very easily be simplified during coaching and when giving individual instructions.

Without meaning to continue harping on about it I really feel that this just underlines how much of a loss missing out on Moutinho will prove to be. Yes it's a complex system - at least initially - but this would be helped massively by having a player who is fully aware of what AVB wants from his team, and is operating at the very heart of it. Moutinho would have been worth his weight in gold as far as the whole team was concerned, because with him calling the shots it would have been far easier for the other players to get to grips with what they need to be doing.

Still....Dembele strikes me as an intelligent player so hopefully he can become the heart of the team instead.

 

[idontgetit]

Awesome write up, especially your point about how much space Dembele's direct central running will create for our other forwards. When we struggled to break sides down last year I believe it was due to us lacking in that aspect. It was even visible with sides like Barca or Spain. Spain in the Euro's looked tame at times because they wouldn't run at anybody, it made the passing too easy to cope with.

What I'm concerned with is that you have Sig down to play the passing role in the midfield 3. I not seen much of him but in what I have seen there was nothing to suggest he will excel in that role. Likewise, for the front side of the right 3 we need a player who has pace and will regularly score goals. Lennon is hardly a goal machine and Dempsey lacks the pace to seriously disrupt the back four, which he will be required to do if Adebayor keeps dropping deep. (He might be awesome at getting on the end of bales crosses though which would be a big plus!).

Lastly you say that BAE is a massively underrated attacking talent. I think he's ok and plays Bale in over the top well but I wouldn't call him underrated. I don't think he's any where near as attacking as Walker is on the right.

It would be interesting to see if the team was more effective with Bale at left back with Sigurdson and Dempsey playing with Ade as a front 3 and have the excellent passing of Huddlestone stringing everything together from the center. Sandro would provide the steel and Dembele the drive to the side. Ideally we'd have Caulker and Vertonghen as cb's due to them being the most technically gifted and suitable to the high line. Dawson and Gallas are safer and more experienced choices but I'd rather see us play the system.

Last point is that we should get Lloris in straight away. Even though Brad deserves to keep his place he will eventually be replaced by Lloris at some point. I'd rather take the minor disruption of doing it now to the major disruption of doing it once Friedel has been settled with the defence for a large part of the season.

 

[karennina]

Part of AVB's challenge is communicating these complex instructions to the "thick" players. Reading that article, it comes across as quite complex. It can very easily be simplified during coaching and when giving individual instructions.

Lennon said we had a thick squad and it's looked like that for a while. But Dembele, Dempsey, Vertonghen and Lloris appear smarter, especially Dembele. Maybe they're just putting it on.

 

[Luka Van der Bale]

Lennon said we had a thick squad and it's looked like that for a while. But Dembele, Dempsey, Vertonghen and Lloris appear smarter, especially Dembele. Maybe they're just putting it on.

The American players that come over usually seem to be quite intelligent.

 

[ultimateloner]

I argue that it's not a complicated system. The front 3 play similarly as before. The main difference is you are asking more of 1 CM to do the ball carrying job. Thats Modric who now turned into Dembele. There's minimal influence on the other playres (positionally, movement etc). OUr weak showing in the last 3 games is that neither of our CMs are efficient at playing the ball to the final 3rd. With Demebele/Parker i can't see why results wont go our way against Reading.

 

[Mattspur]

Love this tactical stuff and credit to those that understand it.
I'm with the players here and tend to get that glazed look while they are straining to get on the pitch and get on the ball.
You cannot force experienced players far out of their comfort zone and a clever manager will compromise
between his preferred system and the natural abilities and tendencies of the players he has,
or hasn't in the case of a manager relying on the negotiating skills of their chairman.
Younger players are more malleable.
But players are not born into positions they develop and expand their potential.

Some players take time to find their most effective positions and some like Bale fight what we all know.

Van Der vaart is a gifted and natural player that played in different roles at
Ajax, Real Madrid, Spurs and importantly for Holland.
Modric is playing much further forward at Real at the moment and played deeper for Croatia
than he did in the main for Spurs.
That's not tactical analysis that's just watching with my eyes open.

There's a tactical conspiracy between the manager and the player.
The manager/coach reads out the shopping list his wife gave him
and the player pretends to listen and nods his head occasionally.
Then goes on and runs about a bit.
Harry got it spot on.

Which players would that be?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Love this tactical stuff and credit to those that understand it.
I'm with the players here and tend to get that glazed look while they are straining to get on the pitch and get on the ball.
You cannot force experienced players far out of their comfort zone and a clever manager will compromise
between his preferred system and the natural abilities and tendencies of the players he has,
or hasn't in the case of a manager relying on the negotiating skills of their chairman.
Younger players are more malleable.
But players are not born into positions they develop and expand their potential.

Some players take time to find their most effective positions and some like Bale fight what we all know.

Van Der vaart is a gifted and natural player that played in different roles at
Ajax, Real Madrid, Spurs and importantly for Holland.
Modric is playing much further forward at Real at the moment and played deeper for Croatia
than he did in the main for Spurs.
That's not tactical analysis that's just watching with my eyes open.

There's a tactical conspiracy between the manager and the player.
The manager/coach reads out the shopping list his wife gave him
and the player pretends to listen and nods his head occasionally.
Then goes on and runs about a bit.
Harry got it spot on.

You quote three clubs above. Ajax, Real Madrid & Spurs.

The great Ajax under Michaels, you know, the side that changed the way the game is coached and played by millions now around the world, that was all about intricate and complicated repetition of tactics through rigorous coaching that covered diet, fitness, psychology as well as drills for every circumstance on the pitch including what each of the ten players does when those around them move into different spaces etc.

Do you honestly think that Real Madrid under Mourinho, the side that somehow managed to pip the best side the world has ever seen for a title does so by letting players fall asleep during training and tactics discussions and then tells them to run about on match day ?

You have never watched a single game that any team Mourinho has ever managed to titles in four countries if you think that the best approach is to just let players "do their own thing".

What you are spouting there is utter, utter bollocks. Bollocks. Bollocks. Bollocks.

Every single great or high achieving football team in any major league (and many other teams and leagues besides) in the last 30 years completely disproves this utter garbage.

 

[JimmyG2]

You are clearly one of those pompous idiots that doesn´t recognise a joke​

unless it´s got a smiley at the end.​

Get back to Zonal Marking you tactical nerd.​

I´ve forgotten more about football than you´ll ever know.​

I´m not sure that came out right.​

 

[Spurger King]

Have to agree with BC. Players talked about being able to express themselves under Redknapp's management - that's not the same as being given free rein to do what they want. There's a lot of work that goes into creating opportunities for particular players to be able to 'express' themselves.

Personally I think our performances and results will begin to make a serious upturn when we move to the new training facility. That's the sort of environment where I feel AVB's overall philosophy will begin to pay dividends. The more the team is able to work on his system, the easier it will become to them.

 

[JimmyG2]

Which players would that be?

It´s a joke, remember jokes?
Then you became a Spurs supporter and life got much more serious.
Probably Defoe for starters though, and Benny some of the time,
Bale when he wanders off the left wing.
I´m obviously going to familiarise myself with the Smiley button.
Damn, wrong one

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Or you could just do better jokes ?

 

[SpurSince57]

A lot of sense in there, some of us were saying similar things in the ratings and Tactical autopsy threads.

I really hope we switch to 433 soon, I think it will suit the players we have better than the 4231.

I think you're right, but I seem to recall that last season a lot of people were talking about 4-2-3-1 as if it were some kind of magic bullet.

 

[Jaispurs]

I'm no tactician, that's why I am not a football manager. I understand how much I enjoy free flowing open football. Press teams high up the pitch, have Ade closing down the centre backs, Lennon and Bale closing up on the full backs and our central midfielders pressing high up the pitch. These tactics put pressure on the opposition to make a mistake.
With our full backs pushing up and our centre backs holding a line, opposition teams cannot live with us. win the ball, get it out quickly with one touch football to Lennon or Bale and turn the opposition defence.
This is the football I have enjoyed seeing from Harry, especially at the Lane and some of the best counter attacks away from home. I was being ironic about running around a bit but it doesn't take a tactical genius to do this.
Playing a high line leaves you open to the ball over the top and through the full backs and centre backs. In Portugal it would be rare for a centre back to hoof the ball 40 yds up field. In England this happens all the time.
I worry that our team haven't a clue whats going on. I hope they do

 

[SpurSince57]

Well first of all I doubt ALL the players are as thick as you described. I know there are quite a few smart players in our team. In fact all the signings we made this summer strike me as relatively intelligent.

Second, if our team is really a bunch of idiots, I would rather have a smart person like AVB in charge, because when you get a manager who is also a dummy, that's when you go on runs like 6 points in 9 games, 13 points in the last 16 games of the season to throw away a CL spot for the second straight season (cough cough). Lets not forget that Redknapp blew it 2 seasons running because he was incompetent and didn't have a system or strategy to fall back on when the players lost confidence. Let's also not forget that his 'go run about and kick the ball around' tactics almost always failed and often led to massive defeats by the best teams in the league.

All AVB has to do is pick up 4 points in the next 6 games to equal Harry's brilliant run of results from the end of last season, and that's even with an incomplete squad for 3 games and a squad even now that most people think is weaker than the one Harry had at his disposal. Also Harry was 3-4 years into his management of the team. We'll see if 3-4 years down the line AVB's "system" fails that badly game after game, with a squad that had been competing for the title. Somehow I doubt it.

This would be the 'dummy' manager who has the highest PPG of any manager in Spurs' history? Hey, let's pick on the bad stuff and ignore the fact that last season and 2009-10 were the sixth and eighth best we've ever had, points-wise, and the best you've ever witnessed. (I'm taking it that you're quite a bit younger than me, because I have witnessed better.)

Harry got several things seriously wrong, but spare us this infantile clueless bullshit, will you?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I think you're right, but I seem to recall that last season a lot of people were talking about 4-2-3-1 as if it were some kind of magic bullet.

Before we played 433 against Norwich away, I was one them, I admit. I still think 4231 is a better formation tactically for us than 442 or 4411 though, I just think the 433 suits us better.