Can we take a moment to laugh heartily at Everton?

[muppetman]

Turns out that had they sold Gordon to us when we bid £25m for him they would have been able to put that money towards FFP but as they sold him to Newcastle for £45m in the next January they couldn’t as it was outside the accounting periods. So they just kept on shooting themselves in the foot repeatedly. How anyone can have any sympathy with them is beyond me.

I have zero sympathy for the owners or those "running" the club as they were clearly incompetent over a long period of time.

What i do have, is some sympathy for the fans who don't get to decide who the owner is or the CEO or sits on the board and makes these decisions. Owners, chairmen, directors all come and go but the fans remain - it's why football (for me) isn't simply a business and needs a much better governance structure.

 

[For the love of Spurs]

I would not recognize a title won simply as a result of another team being stripped of their title.

Titles and trophies are won on the pitch, not in some court room after the fact.

Yes but we would be the rightful winner as the first placed team who performed best on the pitch without cheating. I wouldn’t celebrate but that title belongs to us, we didn’t cheat, they did, they sit on that title as frauds like a 200m runner who used steroids.

 

[easley91]

Anyone know why so much delay with city’s investigation?
Is it because of the volume of charges (115) or something else?

Probably because of how large and complicated it is. It goes back a decade and the commission has to be seen to be taking due diligence over it. Everton's was simple in comparison.

 

[allatsea]

I have zero sympathy for the owners or those "running" the club as they were clearly incompetent over a long period of time.

What i do have, is some sympathy for the fans who don't get to decide who the owner is or the CEO or sits on the board and makes these decisions. Owners, chairmen, directors all come and go but the fans remain - it's why football (for me) isn't simply a business and needs a much better governance structure.

You are right about Governance. Football has shown it is not capable of governing itself fairly and I give Man City, Chelsea, and Newcastle as proof. Only the football governing bodies it seems were unaware what was going on at Chelsea and Man City. Plus only the football governing body thought it was OK to allow Newcastle to be taken over by the people that took them over.

My worry is who will the government appoint to govern football. I fear some crony of whoever is in power at the time of the appointment.

 

[Col_M]

Probably because of how large and complicated it is. It goes back a decade and the commission has to be seen to be taking due diligence over it. Everton's was simple in comparison.

Yup, and Everton of course admitted it.
Additionally, the sheer volume of offenses means the formula for the penalty isn't so clear-cut. I mean is a -45 points a big enough punishment when it only means single relegation rather multiple.

 

[aliyid]

Anyone know why so much delay with city’s investigation?
Is it because of the volume of charges (115) or something else?

From what I understand it's a very different type of case for City than the Everton one.

Everton was clean cut, they posted losses of over £120m/yr which was beyond the trigger point for a breach (£105m) and gave justification that it was out of their control due to COVID, horrible teams like Spurs taking advantage of them and other external influences.

City haven't made losses beyond the trigger point due to over inflated sponsorship deals and dodgy off-book agent fees / payments. The difficult parts on the City side are: how do they prove these off-book payments were made, how do they prove they were actioned by the club and not a 3rd party, how do they prove the amounts / scale compared to a fair market price.

When the case was run by UEFA they had all of the evidence and had them bang to rights but.... City delayed and delayed and delayed long enough that the evidence couldn't be used do to being too old (LINKY). This shouldn't be an issue for EPL as there isn't the same time-barred condition but they know City can throw money at the best legal teams so need to make sure they don't rush into it underprepared.

 

[spursfan77]

I have zero sympathy for the owners or those "running" the club as they were clearly incompetent over a long period of time.

What i do have, is some sympathy for the fans who don't get to decide who the owner is or the CEO or sits on the board and makes these decisions. Owners, chairmen, directors all come and go but the fans remain - it's why football (for me) isn't simply a business and needs a much better governance structure.

I don’t have sympathy for even the Everton fans because when it then hopefully happens to Man City and Chelsea then I should have sympathy for them, when I don’t. Fuck em!

 

[spursfan77]

From what I understand it's a very different type of case for City than the Everton one.

Everton was clean cut, they posted losses of over £120m/yr which was beyond the trigger point for a breach (£105m) and gave justification that it was out of their control due to COVID, horrible teams like Spurs taking advantage of them and other external influences.

City haven't made losses beyond the trigger point due to over inflated sponsorship deals and dodgy off-book agent fees / payments. The difficult parts on the City side are: how do they prove these off-book payments were made, how do they prove they were actioned by the club and not a 3rd party, how do they prove the amounts / scale compared to a fair market price.

When the case was run by UEFA they had all of the evidence and had them bang to rights but.... City delayed and delayed and delayed long enough that the evidence couldn't be used do to being too old (LINKY). This shouldn't be an issue for EPL as there isn't the same time-barred condition but they know City can throw money at the best legal teams so need to make sure they don't rush into it underprepared.

Personally I don’t know why the option to appeal is available, seems like it undermines the whole process. The panel’s decision should be full and final.

 

[muppetman]

I don’t have sympathy for even the Everton fans because when it then hopefully happens to Man City and Chelsea then I should have sympathy for them, when I don’t. Fuck em!

I think that Everton is slightly different - there can't be many fans of City, Chelsea or now Newcastle who aren't aware that their success is bought and paid for and that they were absolutely cheating. Everton got nearly relegated so I can see that the fans can't see it as cheating, even though it obviously is.

I understand that others feel differently though, which is obviously fine.

 

[Frozen_Waffles]

Clearly City and Chelsea should be punished with relegation, City perhaps to the conference.

However taking trophies away doesn't sit right with me. Yes, they were using illegal means, but that doesn't make it any less real for the players and managers involved.

If they are actually bribing refs then yes, but offshore accounts and financial trickery for me is not grounds to punish after the fact with the removal of trophies. I don't see how it benefits anyone.

The clubs themselves (when found guilty) should have the book thrown at them though. They need to make an example of them. Financial penalties are pretty pointless so relegation from the premiership is a must and then it's a case of how many divisions.

The thing is, all this is very late, I mean what Abramovic and Chelsea did from about 20 years ago was bad enough. The stuff involving the youngsters is incredibly dark as well. We could even go back to Blackburn in the early 90s.

The 3 year FFP is a good idea and Everton have been punished fairly imo. Other clubs won't spend like lunatics in the future.

I'd be keeping an eye on a few clubs, Wolves, Villa, Newcastle, City and Chelsea. All sorts of issues and overspending there.

The signing of youngsters in particular and wage caps for players under 21 would be a start.

Spurs should be shown as the model club as the ideal that you reinvest money into the structure and stadium of the club, redeveloping the area, and creating a more profitable and better experience for the fans and staff.

Another step would be banning sponsorship from countries in the middle east (but I can't see how they would do that).

There should be certain objectives from the clubs, improving facilities, stadium and working with the local council to improve the area (City have done well with this), should all help with FFP.

The big problem (currently) is Chelsea, the deal of selling them to Boehly was dodgy as hell and pretty much everything that has happened there since Abramovic, even Ken Bates and his stupid spending was an issue.

If only we had a fit and proper persons test for owners

 

[Bluto Blutarsky]

Spurs should be shown as the model club

Yeah... about that.

Maybe today is not a good time to show off the "Model Club"

 

[Frozen_Waffles]

Yeah... about that.

Maybe today is not a good time to show off the "Model Club"

Didn't see that about Defoe. And under Redknapp as well, who'd have thunk it

Yeah, maybe pick another club

 

[rossdapep]

 

[Spriggan]

Well, that clarifies the "independent" part!

 

[Col_M]

I think that Everton is slightly different - there can't be many fans of City, Chelsea or now Newcastle who aren't aware that their success is bought and paid for and that they were absolutely cheating. Everton got nearly relegated so I can see that the fans can't see it as cheating, even though it obviously is.

I understand that others feel differently though, which is obviously fine.

“Nearly”. So they cheated to avoided relegation. And some other clubs got relegated because THEY followed the rules.

 

[Col_M]

so they’ve got someone who KNOWS the tricks. I’d say that’s sensible

 

[whitechina]

Oh, it was nasty Spurs who under paid for Richie~ FFS WE PAID an agreed price
Wankers

 

[rossdapep]

so they’ve got someone who KNOWS the tricks. I’d say that’s sensible

Oh yeah, that is probably a good idea as they can point out the actions.

However, this guy was on the panel awarding a club a 10-point deduction yet was at a club who illegally signed Tevez and Mascherano which ultimately saved West Ham from relegation that year.

 

[brasil_spur]

Oh, it was nasty Spurs who under paid for Richie~ FFS WE PAID an agreed price
Wankers

Would at least have some merit if he was proving he was worth £60m, let alone £80m. At this point we could be considering our position on whether we were sold a dud or not

 

[Col_M]

Oh yeah, that is probably a good idea as they can point out the actions.

However, this guy was on the panel awarding a club a 10-point deduction yet was at a club who illegally signed Tevez and Mascherano which ultimately saved West Ham from relegation that year.

Key thing here is "WAS". He doesn't work for them and he no longer has any affiliation with WHAM. Frankly, the story is just throwing dirt to see where it sticks,