Blackburn Vs Tottenham: Match Thread

[Bus-Conductor]

Yep, this is it really. There have been a few good posts from the likes of yourself, JerryGarcia, Angermanagement, Jurgen, Steve etc and others who i can't think of at this time in the morning, who have basically summed up what a lot of us feel.

Since the internet came along, there has been so much over analysing it's unreal. Whereas in the old days we'd chat with our workmates/schoolmates about the game on a Monday morning and that was mainly it, forums like these have brought about lots of impatience and over-analysis. Now, far from me to have a go at anything with the word 'anal' in it, it just seems that sometimes, some people can be too analytical like they have to be a master technician or something. In the real world, Ramos was apparently a great technician yet Harry came, told Pav to run around a bit and gave Hudd his tomato sauce back, and a year later we're Champion's League.

My point is people don't have to look into every single thing too much. Especially when we're on the run we're on. I can understand it if we'd lost 5 of our last 6 and people were trying to work out what's gone wrong, but these are good times. Even sloth apparently gives high fives. So why not come online and give a virtual high five rather than open with 'that was a load of rubbish and all the apologists are just making excuses for Harry'.

Sure we can be better, and sure talk about the game and what we could've done better etc, but the manner in which some people post you'd never believe we're currently 3 points off of 3rd placed Chelsea with a game in hand. There are so few critical 'we maybe could've pressed higher' posts and so many 'we're fucking lucky, we're shit, why aren't we fucking putting shit teams away' posts. It just seems like those posters aren't grateful for how far we've come and how well we're doing.

Bomber you're wrong. Fans have been analysing and discussing football for decades, at length. Just read some of the books on the subject.

If you don't like the way internet forums generate this kind of analysis, why come in here and not just stick to discussing it with your mates on monday ?

Personally I'd rather you stuck around and argued your point, whatever that may be, but it's a bit daft coming onto an internet forum dedicated to a football team and being disappointed that some people are analysing football matches involving that team.

Isn't that really the point of football ?

It's just like you watching a porn film and thinking "I could make a better job of that" and you know what, I reckon there would be times when you probably could, despite not being in the (professional) porn business, just because you've watched and taken part in so much of the shit.

You said something to me earlier about why is Redknapp getting shit despite years of crap we have watched at Spurs. But one of the reasons is that Redknapp has one of best sides I've seen in my time as a spurs fan (which he deserves credit for his part in assembling) but at times their work rate, pressing and movement is no better than some of those shit teams we have seen. At times the organisation and tactics applied are really no better than some applied by plenty of managers past. At times it is just exceptional individual talent that is winning games. Not always, but more often than it should be.

There have been times when Redknapp has impressed me and has deserved credit. Aspects of his management are clearly good. Some of his teams and tactics have had me giving him credit recently.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I'm a player myself, and a real student of the game I'd like to think. I absolutely eat up analysis and tactics. I love football, it's that simple.

I'm also (hopefully) an aspiring coach. And I just would like to say that if I want to have any coach's qualities, it's Harry Redknapp who wins.

We know that tactically he doesn't experiment much and he doesn't take risks. Guess what? He has proven results with what works. Is he old-fashioned and builds his side around older players? Yes. But that works for his system. He is a great man-manager, and consistently gets the best from his individual players.

His flaws are evident. There is no debating that. Would I like to see us try the "great 4231?" of course. Would I like to see 4-3-3, players out of position, 5-3-2, more experimentation? Of course. But the thing is, we can speculate all day long about what would have been the better change, but in the end, ol 'Arry has played VDV, Modric, hell even Livermore on the right in his beloved 4-4-2/4-4-1-1 and instead of speculating about what would have happened if he had done something differently, has won 5 of 6 and hasn't lost since August.

The players seem happy and it is clear that he has complete control over the dressing room. If only he could rotate a bit more? He has rotated a lot, and people need to realize his options have been limited due to injuries.

But more than anything, we look like a winning side. We are grinding out results, we are fighting to the end, and we aren't even always the better side with more on-form players. That has to come from the top.

For better or worse, 'Arry is our manager and he has his style. It's working, and fair play to him for sticking with it. He's proving me and others wrong so far.

I understand what you are saying. You make a couple of fair - arguable but fair - points.

But Redknapp didn't prove anyone wrong last season. He got more wrong than right in the last 6 months of the season. We failed to win half our home games, had one win in 12 games, played some pretty poor football for much of the season and he undoubtedly contributed to our failure to qualify for the Cl at Arsenal's expense.

You will rightly remind me of his achievements, getting the fourth best team to fourth, and the CL quarter finals and various other achievements, individual games, performances etc. Al valid. All I'm saying is, he isn't getting everything right and last year it cost us a great deal. CL football for the second season running would have helped our revenue, our appeal to better players and in turn helped us cement ourselves as a CL side.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

BC we all want that but unless we have a team of cyborgs that will never happen - I've never seen a team do it or come remotely close. The best take their foot off the gas all the time especially when they play muggy teams - see Man City at Fulham, Chelsea vs Norwich, Man Yoo the same.

Modric is lauded on here and often quite rightly but away from home his average to poor performances far outweigh his good ones - is that Redknapp's fault? Most of the players today at some point did some diabolically pony things, either poor passes, poor touch, or poor decision making - I watched Adebayor kick the ball out of play after taking 3 touches to try and control it (and fail), Modric play a square pass under minimal pressure 5 yards away from his intended target straight out of play, and Bale balloon the ball 10 yards over the bar from the edge of the box when he had all day.

I'm no Redknapp lover by any stretch but the team picked today was about the best he could've picked (maybe Livermore instead of Lennon but that's debatable).

At what point do the players take responsibility?

Afterthought. I think some weeks, like last week, you definitely can blame players more than the manager - and I said this last week. But some games like Arsenal and today, the manager has to take a big chunk of the blame.

 

[PrettyColors]

I understand what you are saying. You make a couple of fair - arguable but fair - points.

But Redknapp didn't prove anyone wrong last season. He got more wrong than right in the last 6 months of the season. We failed to win half our home games, had one win in 12 games, played some pretty poor football for much of the season and he undoubtedly contributed to our failure to qualify for the Cl at Arsenal's expense.

You will rightly remind me of his achievements, getting the fourth best team to fourth, and the CL quarter finals and various other achievements, individual games, performances etc. Al valid. All I'm saying is, he isn't getting everything right and last year it cost us a great deal. CL football for the second season running would have helped our revenue, our appeal to better players and in turn helped us cement ourselves as a CL side.

Obviously I wasn't on here last season but I was a Spurs fan during that time and I was, rightly, pissed off at 'Arry and pretty much everyone associated with Spurs that we did so poorly. However, what we lacked that season was leadership. King healthy (he was) and Parker: problem solved. We also lacked a top striker, a target man who can hold up the ball and score. Adebayor, problem solved.

Now I'm not taking blame off of Harry, his so-called man-management and his motivation (or lack thereof) really cost us last season as we couldn't get up for the small teams. And the fact that there is no player in the world who he thinks is "triffic" is obviously frustrating. So over the summer I was pretty pissed.

But I think that is what makes my point that much more important: I've not always been a 'Arry fan. The things you're asking me to list or thinking that I will, I won't list them. I applaud him for bringing us CL but that really means fuck all if it's only one year. Look at Benitez.

Since August (which I have blocked out of my head to keep my sanity) we have not lost a game in any competition (okay CC but only because Pav is shit.) And that tells me we are getting it right. Arsenal went to Blackburn, played good football, had the possession.... and lost 4-3. We won 2-1, while it wasn't pretty, it was effective, and we're 5th with a game in hand.

'Arry has handled the EL admirably, the PL admirably, and his tactics, while not great, have been effective enough.

And it will get better with time- he won't have to play Modric on the right all the time and when we get the likes of Gallas, Huddlestone, Kranjcar, etc. back it will only get better. And so will his team selection.

There hasn't even been a game this year (apart from Liverpool) that I've said "wow, that was awesome" afterwards.

But if you look at the table, every result has made me say "wow, that was awesome!"

And that is how 'Arry has changed.

 

[bomberH]

Bomber you're wrong. Fans have been analysing and discussing football for decades, at length. Just read some of the books on the subject.

If you don't like the way internet forums generate this kind of analysis, why come in here and not just stick to discussing it with your mates on monday ?

Personally I'd rather you stuck around and argued your point, whatever that may be, but it's a bit daft coming onto an internet forum dedicated to a football team and being disappointed that some people are analysing football matches involving that team.

Isn't that really the point of football ?

It's just like you watching a porn film and thinking "I could make a better job of that" and you know what, I reckon there would be times when you probably could, despite not being in the (professional) porn business, just because you've watched and taken part in so much of the shit.

You said something to me earlier about why is Redknapp getting shit despite years of crap we have watched at Spurs. But one of the reasons is that Redknapp has one of best sides I've seen in my time as a spurs fan (which he deserves credit for his part in assembling) but at times their work rate, pressing and movement is no better than some of those shit teams we have seen. At times the organisation and tactics applied are really no better than some applied by plenty of managers past. At times it is just exceptional individual talent that is winning games. Not always, but more often than it should be.

There have been times when Redknapp has impressed me and has deserved credit. Aspects of his management are clearly good. Some of his teams and tactics have had me giving him credit recently.

I understand the irony of blaming the internet forums yet using one to get across my point, i'm just saying that's one of the reasons behind the recent impatience. No matter how much you discussed it with mates or via books, there is no way it would've been on the scale the internet has provided with people the other side of the world that you've never met, and the fact we're discussing this at 0220 on a Monday morning proves that. It's a blinding thing, don't get me wrong, but it's part of the reason, along with media outlets like SSN, that there is a growing impatience and need for everything to be analysed.

I've argued the point about Redknapp having one of the best squads on here before. My argument is that most new managers over the past few years have also had the best squads since the early 80's, and each one failed. When Santini took over, he had the best squad in years, when Jol took over, when Ramos took over etc. Fergie would say almost every season that we'll be a threat this season, and it never ever came to fruition. As you rightly say, Redknapp does deserve credit for his part in assembling it, he saw we needed a Palacios etc. But even the players he didn't buy he got the best out of. A hell of a lot of our current success (in terms of CL quallification) is down to him. Honestly, i do realise that he's not a tactical genius but he's far from the naive manager some make out to be. You mention that sometimes we still play football like we did with the shit teams, but look what's happened over the past few weeks, we're beginning to win our games, the ones we couldn't last season. Maybe he's helped instill the confidence needed to do this. Maybe buying Adebayor (who said himself that Harry was a major factor in him signing) and Parker was a masterstroke. Rafa has said how much he likes Redknapp and he doesn't seem like the sort of person who would hold back if he thought otherwise. And one of the reasons he likes him is because he's not the technician Mourinho is, no drawing boards etc. Maybe the main reason Modric didn't make a massive fuss like he could've in the summer was because Harry was saying all the right things publicly and privately. All these little factors add up to why we've been successful over the past 3 years.

Most of the time i wouldn't bother posting in Harry's defence, i don't feel i really need to. One of the main reasons i do is because i think that there may be a few youngsters on this forum that are easily led and will believe anything posted on here by the people who hate Harry. That may sound stupid but it genuinely worries me. I want them to realise we've never had it so good in nearly 30 years. I've always said i'm for constructive criticism, which includes things like we didn't press enough etc, but a lot of the recent stuff is unfounded and is just said to make a big statement without really thinking about what they're saying - in my opinion of course.

I thought that criticism overall last season was harsh considering it was our first time ever mixing CL and Prem football - and we did very well in both of them. I know we fucked up against the smaller teams towards the end of the season and some of the criticism was deserved, but on paper, quarter finals in our debut CL season and 5th in the league, which had been our highest placing for about 20 years before the previous season, isn't too shabby. This season, the criticism has completely baffled me, especially on our current run. The amount of negative posts considering our run is amazing, no?

We can't play the perfect game every week but 16 out of our last 18 points suggest we're doing better than you'd think reading this forum. We are performing better than the end of last season, our results show that, so the amount of criticism is sometimes odd.

Funny you should mention porn, because i've just finished watching 'Analyze Piss' online. I probably couldn't have done a better job to be honest :smile:

 

[Narnill]

You said something to me earlier about why is Redknapp getting shit despite years of crap we have watched at Spurs. But one of the reasons is that Redknapp has one of best sides I've seen in my time as a spurs fan (which he deserves credit for his part in assembling) but at times their work rate, pressing and movement is no better than some of those shit teams we have seen. At times the organisation and tactics applied are really no better than some applied by plenty of managers past. At times it is just exceptional individual talent that is winning games. Not always, but more often than it should be.

There have been times when Redknapp has impressed me and has deserved credit. Aspects of his management are clearly good. Some of his teams and tactics have had me giving him credit recently.

I understand what you are saying. You make a couple of fair - arguable but fair - points.

But Redknapp didn't prove anyone wrong last season. He got more wrong than right in the last 6 months of the season. We failed to win half our home games, had one win in 12 games, played some pretty poor football for much of the season and he undoubtedly contributed to our failure to qualify for the Cl at Arsenal's expense.

You will rightly remind me of his achievements, getting the fourth best team to fourth, and the CL quarter finals and various other achievements, individual games, performances etc. Al valid. All I'm saying is, he isn't getting everything right and last year it cost us a great deal. CL football for the second season running would have helped our revenue, our appeal to better players and in turn helped us cement ourselves as a CL side.

Two posts that sum up my feelings.

Redknapp deserves a great deal of credit for getting us to the CL in the first place and for us turning into a team that wins more than it loses. But he does have excellent tools at his disposal and we often don't look much better than the side scrapping at the bottom of the table.

The odd poor performance against these sides is excusable, but it seems to be a consistency in the past year or so. I'm not expecting us to batter teams every week, but the panic that ensued at Wigan, Blackburn (both joint bottom by the way) and at Newcastle is a little troubling.

We're not learning from our mistakes and as BC says, individual brilliance is saving the day for poor performances - as it did at the beginning of last season. But eventually those moments dry up and you find yourself taking 3 points from a possible 18 against bottom-feeders.

 

[Lilbaz]

You do realise we played absolutely shit against Leicester City in 61. Lets all call Bill a **** for getting the tactics wrong and concentrate on the negatives.
You lot are sad, if you can't enjoy seeing us win, you should choose something else to do.

 

[cusop]

You do realise we played absolutely shit against Leicester City in 61. Lets all call Bill a **** for getting the tactics wrong and concentrate on the negatives.
You lot are sad, if you can't enjoy seeing us win, you should choose something else to do.

I think what is complected is that Sandro was named to the bench and when the game was crying out for him we got Danny and Jermain

we dodged bullets and won so we can take comfort in the win

 

[bomberH]

I think what is complected is that Sandro was named to the bench and when the game was crying out for him we got Danny and Jermain

we dodged bullets and won so we can take comfort in the win

Sandro injured his calf during the warm up apparently.

 

[Lilbaz]

I think what is complected is that Sandro was named to the bench and when the game was crying out for him we got Danny and Jermain

we dodged bullets and won so we can take comfort in the win

Last week people were having a go because we should have won the game, this week people are having a go about how we won. At the end of the day a win is a win. If Sandro or Defoe did come on (bar injuries or reasons we don't know) we may have lost. People are getting into the realms of what if? Which cannot be proven either way and is a totally useless argument.

Hindsight is the greatest weapon ever invented. I bet anyone a million £ that if we started with Sandro we would have got beat 25-0 any takers?

 

[Narnill]

You do realise we played absolutely shit against Leicester City in 61. Lets all call Bill a **** for getting the tactics wrong and concentrate on the negatives.
You lot are sad, if you can't enjoy seeing us win, you should choose something else to do.

Why talk in extremes?

 

[mattdefoe]

when adebayor hits form we will be LETHAL

 

[Lilbaz]

Why talk in extremes?

Sorry, just getting fed up with the fact that we have won 5 out of the last 6 league games and people are still slagging off Harry's choices. Sandro is a great player and I would have loved to see him play, but can't we just enjoy the fact that we are winning?

 

[Narnill]

Of course, I think you'll find most people are and did enjoy the win with a cold one last night. But the nature of the way we've played against some of the poorer sides shows that we're not all that convincing.

It's not like it's a flash in the pan thing, our poor performances and flimsy midfield showing last year directly resulted in us missing out on the CL last year. I don't want a repeat.

Take United's hammering yesterday - the writing was on the wall for something like that, Chelsea, Norwich, Liverpool, Basel. Not one of those were lost, but they indicated that something wasn't quite right. I feel the same way with us in the last 3 games.

 

[stevenqoz]

Sorry posted in wrong thread

 

[worcestersauce]

I think these days there is a higher level of sensational, sublime super smashing great hyperbole about the game that we maybe get from the unbelievably over the top bollox put out by the likes of sky.
The fact is that all Sundays are not Super, all games are not like Barcelona on a great day, mostly they are about tough hard fought games grinding out results and the fact that the opposition attacks you and has some attempts on goal doesn't mean that you are lucky they didn't score, usually they don't score and quite honestly if that was the case then Blackburn were lucky we didn't get half a dozen goals.
Christ if we were struggling 1-1 at home against Stoke and had to bring our only top level player on to win it for us I would be concerned but Blackburn Rovers are in a dog fight already and the players are giving absolutely everything, fighting for every last minute of the game so a win and, to be honest, in the end a comfortable win ought to be celebrated.
We will also get better through the season so lets have some optimism guys we really are quite good you know.

 

[ShelfSide18]

I really don't want to get lumbered with the 'Harry basher' tag or seen as some hyper-critical fan who doesn't have an ounce of perspective, because that isn't me at all, and I don't think posters like BC/Sloth are either. There are some kneejerkers out there who will write rubbish anti Redknapp stuff and I will criticise that as much as anyone - I like considered opinion whether I agree with it or not. I do also accept that there is a risk of pre-existing prejudices which will affect my judgement on games, but I try my best to call it as I see it.

Let's be clear, I do not think Redknapp is a terrible manager, far from it and his results for us prove that - we could have done far, far worse and he deserves great credit for what he has done for us. I also think it is churlish to say that he's been blessed with the best squad we've had for years, because he has had a huge part in assembling that squad. But I also think it is fair to say that a top manager could get that bit more out of this squad, it's all about fine lines in football, and come may I don't want to be sat on the wrong side of that fine line again.

I understand how harsh this may sound, I'm 23 so haven't seen any of the famous Spurs sides, and these last few years have been the most successful years I've witnessed by a long distance - it's not even close, but I don't want to look back in 20 years back to now and only have a league cup win and CL QF to look back on. Just take a look at that squad and tell me that isn't a team that should be looking to win the EPL very soon, this season we should be looking above us and keeping in touch with the top 3 rather than worrying about scrapping for 4th. We are that good, we've shown it sporadically but not often enough. You won't be at your best for 38 games a season, but the difference between the top sides and also rans is about doing it more often than not, and that is why we aren't a top side when we could be. Don't get me wrong though, as a club there is a lot more right than wrong at the moment, and I'm loving being a Spurs fan right now, I just see potential there to create something really special and this sometimes spills out as hyper-criticism when we make games hard for ourselves like yesterday.

And just one last point re Bomber saying that football is over-analysed now, football has always been analysed to great extent, it is nothing new at all. Perhaps the internet has created this illusion, but just a little digging into the history of football shows you that the game has always been de-constructed and analysed - the internet has just given it a better vehicle for this to be seen.

And how good are Monday mornings when Spurs win?!

 

[Spurs_Bear]

I really don't want to get lumbered with the 'Harry basher' tag or seen as some hyper-critical fan who doesn't have an ounce of perspective, because that isn't me at all, and I don't think posters like BC/Sloth are either. There are some kneejerkers out there who will write rubbish anti Redknapp stuff and I will criticise that as much as anyone - I like considered opinion whether I agree with it or not. I do also accept that there is a risk of pre-existing prejudices which will affect my judgement on games, but I try my best to call it as I see it.

Let's be clear, I do not think Redknapp is a terrible manager, far from it and his results for us prove that - we could have done far, far worse and he deserves great credit for what he has done for us. I also think it is churlish to say that he's been blessed with the best squad we've had for years, because he has had a huge part in assembling that squad. But I also think it is fair to say that a top manager could get that bit more out of this squad, it's all about fine lines in football, and come may I don't want to be sat on the wrong side of that fine line again.

I understand how harsh this may sound, I'm 23 so haven't seen any of the famous Spurs sides, and these last few years have been the most successful years I've witnessed by a long distance - it's not even close, but I don't want to look back in 20 years back to now and only have a league cup win and CL QF to look back on. Just take a look at that squad and tell me that isn't a team that should be looking to win the EPL very soon, this season we should be looking above us and keeping in touch with the top 3 rather than worrying about scrapping for 4th. We are that good, we've shown it sporadically but not often enough. You won't be at your best for 38 games a season, but the difference between the top sides and also rans is about doing it more often than not, and that is why we aren't a top side when we could be. Don't get me wrong though, as a club there is a lot more right than wrong at the moment, and I'm loving being a Spurs fan right now, I just see potential there to create something really special and this sometimes spills out as hyper-criticism when we make games hard for ourselves like yesterday.

And just one last point re Bomber saying that football is over-analysed now, football has always been analysed to great extent, it is nothing new at all. Perhaps the internet has created this illusion, but just a little digging into the history of football shows you that the game has always been de-constructed and analysed - the internet has just given it a better vehicle for this to be seen.

And how good are Monday mornings when Spurs win?!

You and BC aren't and don't come across like that mate, sloth does. You make your points with background tactical knowledge and usually start your posts written like supporters who just take more of an in depth analysis into what you want to see. I have no issue with yours and BC's posts. Sloth doesn't, he's a bandwaggon jumper-oner, and he cant hide his dislike for Redknapp, he's similar to Ashcroft in that manner. First post in the match thread yesterday told some people to 'f*ck off, we won but that was shit.' It's nonsense.

The other thing is that the same people who are saying 'Harry cant take us to the next level' were the same people who said it about the top 4.

I don't think we'll be a regular in the top 4 until we spend top 4 money.

 

[StartingPrice]

B.C. has been analysing and discussing football for decades, at length - without interruption mg:mg:mg:

FYP :hump:

In fairness to Bomber, B.C., he made it clear from his first post that he wasn't having a go at analysis or discussion per se, just obsessive over-analysis with a disctinctly negative slant (some folk seem to think that hat was made for their heads - guilty conscience, methinks :grin.
I don't think that warrants the accusation that he is trying to stifle debate.

Be happy - we have some busy ****s :wink:

You do realise we played absolutely shit against Leicester City in 61. Lets all call Bill a **** for getting the tactics wrong and concentrate on the negatives.
You lot are sad, if you can't enjoy seeing us win, you should choose something else to do.

This.
I wasn't there at the time (mere stripling compared to some on here), but I am pretty certain that we lost games that we werre expecting to win (and probably win easily) back in the day.

I think these days there is a higher level of sensational, sublime super smashing great hyperbole about the game that we maybe get from the unbelievably over the top bollox put out by the likes of sky.
The fact is that all Sundays are not Super, all games are not like Barcelona on a great day, mostly they are about tough hard fought games grinding out results and the fact that the opposition attacks you and has some attempts on goal doesn't mean that you are lucky they didn't score, usually they don't score and quite honestly if that was the case then Blackburn were lucky we didn't get half a dozen goals.
Christ if we were struggling 1-1 at home against Stoke and had to bring our only top level player on to win it for us I would be concerned but Blackburn Rovers are in a dog fight already and the players are giving absolutely everything, fighting for every last minute of the game so a win and, to be honest, in the end a comfortable win ought to be celebrated.
We will also get better through the season so lets have some optimism guys we really are quite good you know.

And this.

 

[jurgen]

Scariest thing to me though is the porno comparison. For a number of reasons.. One being that its a very poor comparison. It is actually a perfect example of the 'performance' being different to the reality (of sex). i.e. just because you can raise your old chap to half mast for 15 mins doesn't mean you're lasting 'scene length'. Think about the gaps between takes, the improbably positioning of organs in relation to cameras, having to do it with a fat man videotaping you, or simply having to do it with a fat man. Those guys are pros, heroes for masculinity if you will. I am sure B-C is a spectacular lover, but theres a clear difference between that and the performative act on screen - which is a precise illustration of the difference between remote punditry and actual management.

Of course I'm sure pretty much anyone can actually go and prove they could do a better job, without needing to go through getting badges and suchlike?

But could you do it on a wet Thursday in November, in Stoke?