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Anti-knee-jerk Thread

Goldman

Well-Known Member
Jul 14, 2004
7,113
2,186
Let me preface this by saying I am not anti-Levy or anti-AVB. I supported Harry whilst he was manager, and now i fully support the new manager. But, imo he is making some key mistakes. Perhaps this is partly due to our timing in the transfer window, but partly due to some poor decisions also.

Looking over some of the negatives and positives of the season so far....

1). Defoe cannot start as the focal point in a 4-3-3/4-5-1 formation. He can;t hold up the ball.. he just isn't suited to it.

You can say Ade isn't match fit.. Well adapt the formation to the fit striker, or play an "unfit" Ade from the start, seemed to work last season in pretty similar circumstances.

2). Don't take off our only defensive midfielder in games when we only have a slender lead, or no lead at all. It's a recipe for disaster. Livermore isn't a DM. He's not. If you consider him to be one, then why the hell are we playing two of them at home against one of the poorer teams in the division.

3). Livermore. What does he do? He doesn't excell in any area. Doesn't defend well, attack well, link up the play well.. I'm not sure what he does apart from pass the ball the back exactly from where it came. He is an average player imo, and not a player any team in the top 4 would currently want in their starting line up.



As it stands we have a decent squad, we seem to lack a bit of creativity in midfield, but surely you have to start with Demeble at home over Livermore. The first half was as placid as it gets. We created hardly any clear cut chances.

The positives I draw so far;

1). Brad is playing at his best, he is determined to hold onto the no.1 jersey and that provides great competition between the sticks.

2). Vertonghen, although a little shaky at times, I really believe he will be a classy CB for us for years to come, providing he can have a stable partner next to him. Which hopefully will be Kaboul. I think Gallas is the right decision for now, considering Vertonghen's inexperience. But i would love to see Vertonghen and Caulker paired together in the European and domestic cup competitions. As i feel that is a partnership that could flourish after some time together.

3). Dembele looks a decent player. More positive. Moves the ball quickly, nice link up play, and a great goal today.


As it stands, we don't seem to be creating enough goal scoring opportunities. Hopefully AVB will intergrate Ade and Demeble into the the team sooner rather than later, as we look extremely goal shy at the moment.

Thoughts?
 

rez9000

Any point?
Feb 8, 2007
11,942
21,098
Even though I don't agree with you, at the very least I can respect the fact that you've put some thought into your objections.

You're in a very small minority however, Goldman. So much so, that I think the wisest thing for my blood pressure would be to avoid SC for a few days because the lunatics (translation - dickheads) have firmly taken over the asylum.
 

StockSpur

Well-Known Member
May 20, 2004
5,051
1,600
Agreed except to say avb probably didnt want to throw dembele in at the deep end. we always went in 0-0 at half time under harry so i dont see any difference, we were better 2nd half, and jeez hudd looked unfit :) defoe got owned and looked like he still doesnt understand offsides. bale and lennon look lazy and their linkup with bae and walker is crap. my view anyway.
 

fortworthspur

Well-Known Member
Nov 12, 2007
11,284
17,595
hard to blame AVB. He played the best players we have. We were shit today and lucky to get one point. The biggest problem I saw was the CMs were bereft of ideas. On top of that, Lennon and Defoe were especially bad.
 

Goldman

Well-Known Member
Jul 14, 2004
7,113
2,186
hard to blame AVB. He played the best players we have. .
I didn't say he was at fault for everything, i mentioned the timing of our transfer activity probably had some part to play. But he played the best players we have? Disagree. Dembele had to start imo. Maybe he wasn't intergrated with the squad fully, but his attributes far surpass those of Livermore imo.

The biggest problem I saw was the CMs were bereft of ideas.

Exactly. Hence Dembele for me.
 

jacko23

New Member
Sep 15, 2007
1
0
I don't post often but after being at the lane the past two weeks I needed a release .. I was gonna post a knee jerk but came across your post just in time .. I agree with most of what you say although so I can only hope what you say about vertonghen will happen as i am a little sceptical as he spends a bit too much time on the ball for my liking .. Hopefully it's just a transition from a slower league and he will get used to the premier league pace .. as for Rez I respect your opinion as a spurs fan but it would be interesting to hear what you disagree with ... Ps the song for Lloris .. Gotta catch on!
 

Goldman

Well-Known Member
Jul 14, 2004
7,113
2,186
Don't post often.... lol you weren't kidding
 

StartingPrice

Chief Sardonicus Hyperlip
Feb 13, 2004
32,568
10,280
1) We were utter guff today.

2) We are creating enough chances to win games. it's not the creating chances bit that is the problem it is failing to protect a lead two fecking games running, and flapping around like tent-flaps in a storm like panicky little fecking feckers :mad:
 

shaqTHFC

Well-Known Member
Jan 28, 2011
1,546
807
Whilst not a great start, look how badly Arsenal started last season after selling their two best midfielders and where did they end up? Our team isn't as good as last season imo, but it doesn't mean that we can't achieve our goal (top 4). Our probable rivals haven't set the world alight. Arsenal haven't scored yet, Liverpool have had two contrasting performances and are prone to defensive errors, and Newcastle are tough to judge atm for me. Even City don't look convincing (although they've dug deep).

If we're lucky, hopefully we can snag Moutinho in Jan and if we're close to our rivals for the last CL spot then it could give us the edge.

Also, we are only two points off of the corresponding fixtures last year. Hopefully in two weeks everything will click and we can go on a run.
 

ItsBoris

Well-Known Member
Jan 18, 2011
8,670
10,938
Team I would like to see in our next match:
Lloris​
Walker Vertonghen Caulker Ekotto​
Sandro​
Dembele Sigurdsson​
Dempsey Adebayor Bale​
And lets get it together and play some good football finally. Caulker I feel like can come in and provide some composure in our attempt to play it out of the back. We looked a little panicky today trying to bring the ball out of defense without hoofing it, and Caulker has been drilled all season at Swansea by Rodgers to do that.
 

Goldman

Well-Known Member
Jul 14, 2004
7,113
2,186
1) We were utter guff today.

2) We are creating enough chances to win games. it's not the creating chances bit that is the problem it is failing to protect a lead two fecking games running, and flapping around like tent-flaps in a storm like panicky little fecking feckers :mad:

1). Agree
2). Not sure we are creating enough chances. Maybe against Newcastle and WBA, but how much was that Rafa's doing? Against Norwich today i'm not so sure. As for protecting a lead, see my second point in the negative section.. Why take off Sandro, our only defensive mid in games we aren't winning or only winning by a slender margin?
 

StartingPrice

Chief Sardonicus Hyperlip
Feb 13, 2004
32,568
10,280
1). Agree
2). Not sure we are creating enough chances. Maybe against Newcastle and WBA, but how much was that Rafa's doing? Against Norwich today i'm not so sure. As for protecting a lead, see my second point in the negative section.. Why take off Sandro, our only defensive mid in games we aren't winning or only winning by a slender margin?

No, Goldman, I was being deliberately tendentious...because the fact is that you create one chance and put it away and concede zero you win. In both games, we scored and were at home againtst (lets be honest) pretty average sides. it was the failing to hold our lead and being pishy wet-arses in defence that has really fecked us up. Create lots of chances and scoring lots of goals is nice, and I hope we get there, but we would have won these games if we hadn't crumbled under medium pressure.
 

Goldman

Well-Known Member
Jul 14, 2004
7,113
2,186
Whilst not a great start, look how badly Arsenal started last season after selling their two best midfielders and where did they end up? Our team isn't as good as last season imo, but it doesn't mean that we can't achieve our goal (top 4). Our probable rivals haven't set the world alight. Arsenal haven't scored yet, Liverpool have had two contrasting performances and are prone to defensive errors, and Newcastle are tough to judge atm for me. Even City don't look convincing (although they've dug deep).

If we're lucky, hopefully we can snag Moutinho in Jan and if we're close to our rivals for the last CL spot then it could give us the edge.

Also, we are only two points off of the corresponding fixtures last year. Hopefully in two weeks everything will click and we can go on a run.

Imo you're looking at things from the wrong angle. Who cares what has happened in the past with other teams or results against teams the year before. We shouldn't focus on our opponents flaws, nor should we focus on what might happen in Jan. Sure other teams might be struggling atm (gooners), but we need to focus on the now, and how we can fix our own problems. Ade and Demblele in for Defoe and Livermore for me.
 

Ribble

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2011
3,572
4,904
Team I would like to see in our next match:
Lloris​
Walker Vertonghen Caulker Ekotto​
Sandro​
Dembele Sigurdsson​
Dempsey Adebayor Bale​
And lets get it together and play some good football finally. Caulker I feel like can come in and provide some composure in our attempt to play it out of the back. We looked a little panicky today trying to bring the ball out of defense without hoofing it, and Caulker has been drilled all season at Swansea by Rodgers to do that.

I think that's close to what we're working towards, although ultimately with Kaboul alongside Verts. AVB is clearly not a man to rush things, but a week with the full definite squad together at last should see progress. You can certainly see why AVB wanted the business done and dusted before the US tour, if I were him I'd be insisting we get any stuff done quickly in January to avoid this again.
 

Goldman

Well-Known Member
Jul 14, 2004
7,113
2,186
No, Goldman, I was being deliberately tendentious...because the fact is that you create one chance and put it away and concede zero you win. In both games, we scored and were at home againtst (lets be honest) pretty average sides. it was the failing to hold our lead and being pishy wet-arses in defence that has really fecked us up. Create lots of chances and scoring lots of goals is nice, and I hope we get there, but we would have won these games if we hadn't crumbled under medium pressure.

Agreed.. But are you missing my point i've mentioned several times.. Why take off Sandro, our only defensive mid? He is key to clean sheets.

And yes put away the chances, and keep it tight, we will win, but we aren't creating enough chances, and with Defore leading the line in a 4-3-3/4-5-1, we aren't gonna score enough imo.
 

guiltyparty

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2005
9,023
13,524
I've just got back, and I was sat pretty much directly behind AVB…

photo copy.JPG


First time I've seen him operate in the flesh. The thing that occurred to me was he's constantly talking to the players and his famous double-handed, double-fingered whistle is really bloody loud, and he does it all the time. It's the total opposite to Harry, who got very animated occasionally but in the main sat in his seat and let the coaches talk to the players. I found it fascinating - even my concentration kept being jarred by the incessant whistling. It must be very different for the team and just part of the bedding in process. A lot of them seemed alarmed at how much he was talking to them, and unsure of what they were doing. There was one point where Walker was having a straight up row with him as he could't understand what he was instructing him. He is involved constantly.

Of course, the amount of knee-jerking going on is ridiculous, we've got to give him time - we can't hire a manager, let him completely dismantle our winning team and then sack him, what use is that? I can't believe some people are suggesting that. But it was undeniable that we were appalling today. Like, really, really bad, and I don't think we can hide from that. One of the worst performances I've seen from us in a long, long time and really bad timing after the transfer window 'backlash'. Misplaced passes, people not knowing what they were doing, getting the basics wrong, people looking at each other like they were on completely different wavelengths. It was a mess and really not what we needed. Beyond a mess, it was tedious, the kind of game where you feel like asking for your money back.

Newcastle and West Brom we played well in the first half and fell away. This one, we were awful in the first half, rallied a little when Dembele came on (who looked like he'd played for us for years and is clearly a hero in the making), then AVB gave up the game again by trying to defend a 1-0 lead at home for half an hour, which was just asking for trouble. The minute he brought on Huddlestone I said they'd score, it was so predictable. It's what every Chelsea fan I know has warned me about - AVB is happy to win 1-0 and always defends a lead and invites pressure on.

Yet, it's a point, we lost many just as frustrating games under Redknapp, let's take the rose-tints off. AVB has got a hell of a job on his hands and it's sad how quickly the crowd has turned on him so publicly. The booing at half time was bad, but the booing at the end was deafening. The atmosphere in the ground was bad from the start and it got worse, and the mutterings around the ground and in the pub were very anti-AVB. Make no mistake, we don't need the media to maul him, it's happening within our own fans. We need to cut it out, as I can feel this building uncomfortably already. I have concerns but we have to have faith.
 

StartingPrice

Chief Sardonicus Hyperlip
Feb 13, 2004
32,568
10,280
Agreed.. But are you missing my point i've mentioned several times.. Why take off Sandro, our only defensive mid? He is key to clean sheets.

And yes put away the chances, and keep it tight, we will win, but we aren't creating enough chances, and with Defore leading the line in a 4-3-3/4-5-1, we aren't gonna score enough imo.

No, I get your point and agree with you...I was being deliberately tendentious...because we would have won 1-nil two weeks running if we hadn't defended like a pair of drunks arguing over who pays for the kebab. You are right, but a couple of 1-nil results and we would have seven points on the board. if that had happened, it would be a bit less worrying that we only won 1-nil instead of by 2 or 3.
 

Goldman

Well-Known Member
Jul 14, 2004
7,113
2,186
Team I would like to see in our next match:
Lloris​
Walker Vertonghen Caulker Ekotto​
Sandro​
Dembele Sigurdsson​
Dempsey Adebayor Bale​
And lets get it together and play some good football finally. Caulker I feel like can come in and provide some composure in our attempt to play it out of the back. We looked a little panicky today trying to bring the ball out of defense without hoofing it, and Caulker has been drilled all season at Swansea by Rodgers to do that.

More positive in midfield for sure, but i think maybe too early to try Verts and Caulker in the prem together without them playing together before. That's why i suggest trying the partnership in the Carling cup/Europa league
 

guiltyparty

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2005
9,023
13,524
1) We were utter guff today.

2) We are creating enough chances to win games. it's not the creating chances bit that is the problem it is failing to protect a lead two fecking games running, and flapping around like tent-flaps in a storm like panicky little fecking feckers :mad:

I don't fully agree with the second one. Yes, we gave up the game in exactly the same way as with WBA, but unlike then our build up play today was terrible - over-hitting balls, people making the wrong runs, punting it into touch. Dembele created a chance out of nothing, it was a moment of magic. Bar that Bale and Sigurdsson had a couple of shot from 20 yards either straight at keeper or over. What else did we do?

Friedel was by far the more troubled keeper, making one tremendous save and having to deal with a few others, they hit the bar too. If games were given on chances created, Norwich would have won this hands down.
 
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