After this World cup what then for England?

[worcestersauce]

I have just been perusing SSN this morning and they had a little piece about the England team and the future England players and gave the statistic that in all the Premier League games at the weekend there were only 24 Englishmen playing out of 220 starters, I guess there were none for the arsenal, three for Chelsea, two for Liverpool and maybe two for United, we had six which may have been the highest.
This basically means that the England squad picks itself no?

I posted yesterday in another thread which is why it caught my attention:-
“Just on the point of Tom Huddlestone in the England team as I see it all of our senior England team midfielders are the wrong side of 28 except Lennon, Milner & Walcott who are wide players.
Gerrard, Lampard, Carrick, Barry, Wright-Phillips & Joe Cole will be well into their thirties by the next world cup and I'm not sure where the 24 -25 year olds are that will replace them, nobody springs immediately to mind which does leave the field open for the likes of Tommy in that central area, come to think of it Jenas would also be a strong candidate.”

Let me put it to you; where is the next England team coming from? Will we have one worth the name? Should we be bothered?

 

[sidford]

players mature at different stages and some players dont progress past u21's so there will be players who will be playing for england in a few years who people now probably wouldnt even consider.
and dont forget that having some 'workman' players i.e. players who do a job and dont have the rep of say a fat frank or stevie g can contribute a lot to a team and cant hurt any team having some players like that.
england will always have a strong squad so if i was english i wouldnt be too concerned about it

 

[worcestersauce]

players mature at different stages and some players dont progress past u21's so there will be players who will be playing for england in a few years who people now probably wouldnt even consider.
and dont forget that having some 'workman' players i.e. players who do a job and dont have the rep of say a fat frank or stevie g can contribute a lot to a team and cant hurt any team having some players like that.
england will always have a strong squad so if i was english i wouldnt be too concerned about it

But basically the English players playing at the weekend were the England squad, there ought to be others by now that we can see moving into the squad over the next year or two, who are they? I think that at 25 or 26 we ought to have a good idea who they are because not many players come from nowhere at that age, they ought to have matured enough to have been noticed at least.

 

[Bill_Oddie]

Fair point. Although it's worth mentioning that our U21s have been quite good. The group of players that includes Hudd, Cattermole, Milner and so on have a lot about them. Throw in some of the next batch, Gosling, Adam Johnson, Wilshere, Delph, etc. The future should be good enough.

The thing is, regardless of how many Englishmen are in the Premier League, the very best players the Rooneys, Gerrards, etc will always come through so the national side shouldn't be dramatically affected.

 

[DEFchenkOE]

Only 24 English players??? WTF!! Is that really correct?? I'm going to have to check that as it seems like a ridiculously low amount! Is that the normal week-in week-out?? It can't be surely??

Edit

Just checked some of the starters from the weekend just gone:

1. Stephen Warnock
2. Steve Sidwell
3. Luke Young
4. Nigel Reo-Coker
5. Ashley Young
6. James Milner
7. Gabriel Agbonlahor

8. Zat Knight
9. Gary Cahill
10. Paul Robinson
11. Matthew Taylor
12. Kevin Davies

13. Paul Robinson
14. David Dunn

15. David James
16. Jamie O'Hara
17. Michael Brown

18. Joleon Lescott
19. Wayne Bridge
20. Gareth Barry
21. Shaun Wright-Phillips

22. Ledley King
23. Jonathan Woodgate
24. Tom Huddlestone
25. Jermaine Jenas
26. Peter Crouch
27. Jermain Defoe

28. Kieran Richardson
29. Fraizer Campbell
30. Darren Bent

31. John Terry
32. Ashley Cole
33. Frank Lampard

34. Wes Brown
35. Michael Carrick
36. Wayne Rooney


This isn't including all the matches just went through a few.

 

[spurs mental]

England will be fine. There's always going to be good youngsters coming through.

Ireland, on the other hand...well, we'll see.

 

[sidford]

England will be fine. There's always going to be good youngsters coming through.

Ireland, on the other hand...well, we'll see.

owen garvin from ipswich, james mccarthy, st ledger is what 22?, doyle early 20's and im sure in a couple of years there will be more players with irish grandparents who realise green suits them

 

[Kyras]

owen garvin from ipswich, james mccarthy, st ledger is what 22?, doyle early 20's and im sure in a couple of years there will be more players with irish grandparents who realise green suits them

Kyle Naughton can play for Ireland I think.

 

[DogsOfWar]

Well I'm going to stick my neck out and make the rather bold claim that we are just about to embark on the real 'golden generation' of England footballers.

The reason we don't have too many top class 25 year olds is because the pre-2000 coaching methods were rubbish. As a result foreign players were a lot better and we currently find the PL bereft of decent English players.

The U21's we are now starting to see have only ever known the Premiership, with players such as Gullit, Zola, Cantona, Bergkamp, Henry etc as their heroes.
Young players want to play with flair whilst we see them syphoned off at 8 years old to play in academies so that the poor grass roots coaching doesn't do too much damage.

Look at Arsenal, they are famous for not developing British players but we are starting to see the likes of Walcott, Gibbs, Wilshere, Ramsey coming through. We have a genuinely strong core of U21s who actually look as if they are capable of breaking through in the next 5 years with Obika, Mason, Parrett, Rose, Bostock etc.
Everton, Chelsea and Villa all seem to have a relatively strong youth presence as well, maybe not in the starting eleven but certainly in the 'one for the future' category.

England has started to dominate in league terms with the PL, in European terms with the CL, and now I think it will start to dominate in world terms with the national team. It's just that it takes 20 years for the final part to work through because it cannot be bought in.

 

[donny1013]

My main worry is the shortage of striking talent there seems to be, we used to have an abundance of high scoring English EPL strikers not so long ago. There doesn't seem to be a young up and coming English striker atm in the EPL. Rooney is only 24 so i guess it will always be him and one other for the next 8 years or so. Agbonlahor has got the potential and does seem to be getting better every season, maybe Walnutt will finally be used up front as well as i think that is his best position

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I have just been perusing SSN this morning and they had a little piece about the England team and the future England players and gave the statistic that in all the Premier League games at the weekend there were only 24 Englishmen playing out of 220 starters, I guess there were none for the arsenal, three for Chelsea, two for Liverpool and maybe two for United, we had six which may have been the highest.
This basically means that the England squad picks itself no?

I posted yesterday in another thread which is why it caught my attention:-
“Just on the point of Tom Huddlestone in the England team as I see it all of our senior England team midfielders are the wrong side of 28 except Lennon, Milner & Walcott who are wide players.
Gerrard, Lampard, Carrick, Barry, Wright-Phillips & Joe Cole will be well into their thirties by the next world cup and I'm not sure where the 24 -25 year olds are that will replace them, nobody springs immediately to mind which does leave the field open for the likes of Tommy in that central area, come to think of it Jenas would also be a strong candidate.”

Let me put it to you; where is the next England team coming from? Will we have one worth the name? Should we be bothered?

Whatever happens next couldn't be anymore embarrassing in terms of the quality of football played than the last 10 years (make that most of the last 30 years really bar that little spell where hoddle actually dared drop faces and try to play football).

Well I'm going to stick my neck out and make the rather bold claim that we are just about to embark on the real 'golden generation' of England footballers.

The reason we don't have too many top class 25 year olds is because the pre-2000 coaching methods were rubbish. As a result foreign players were a lot better and we currently find the PL bereft of decent English players.

The U21's we are now starting to see have only ever known the Premiership, with players such as Gullit, Zola, Cantona, Bergkamp, Henry etc as their heroes.
Young players want to play with flair whilst we see them syphoned off at 8 years old to play in academies so that the poor grass roots coaching doesn't do too much damage.

Look at Arsenal, they are famous for not developing British players but we are starting to see the likes of Walcott, Gibbs, Wilshere, Ramsey coming through. We have a genuinely strong core of U21s who actually look as if they are capable of breaking through in the next 5 years with Obika, Mason, Parrett, Rose, Bostock etc.
Everton, Chelsea and Villa all seem to have a relatively strong youth presence as well, maybe not in the starting eleven but certainly in the 'one for the future' category.

England has started to dominate in league terms with the PL, in European terms with the CL, and now I think it will start to dominate in world terms with the national team. It's just that it takes 20 years for the final part to work through because it cannot be bought in.

Brave prediction D and I can see where you are coming from, there is a definite advancement in training in terms youth training, academies etc and we are starting to see the fruits of some of that but as ever my fear is that - as with previous eras - what we'll get (especially with the professional life span of the modern football being extended by vastly improved training regimes) is a continuation of wanky gutless managers keepping the medias favourite faces around ( a la Brooking and Keegan etc) and not having the bollocks to bring in these young talents until the old ****'s decide they've finished.

Beckham is a brilliant example. What the fuck is he still doing anywhere near that squad.

 

[ShelfSide18]

This is what I posted on another thread but I think its relevant here and my thoughts on the dearth of proper English talent coming through...

'I think youth football is far too structured at an early age - kids want to have fun, they want to have plenty of touches on the ball and don't want to be shouted at if, god forbid, they make a mistake. Kids learn more about football in the park and in the playground than training sessions which involve running around cones and ladders(sometimes it took my training sessions a good 45 minutes to actually get to touch a ball) and matches which involve having so few touches it's pointless whilst getting berated by every single parent on the touchline. Unfortunately a large majority of youth coaches are more interested in their jackets with their bloody initials on it and winning games at all costs. It really is cringeworthy when you have young kids who have been assigned a position, young kids who are taught how to master the offside trap, time wasting and cynical play before they can master the football.

If you take a wander down your local park on a sunday afternoon and watch youth football (without looking dodgy) all you'll hear is people shouting 'easy ball', 'hit 'im son', 'get rid', 'stop taking people on you greedy shit', 'play the way you're facing' I could go on all night - it's no small wonder we fail to consistently produce players who can do something different. Anyone who tries anything other than a simple ball played the way they are facing or a aimless punt upfield they get labelled a showpony who needs a good kicking. Sad, isn't it.'

This is a disease that is afflicting English football in my opinion, and the reason why we have looked elsewhere in the past and still do to bring genuine talent to the Premiership. I hope Dogs of War is right, and it is an excellent point.

I just want us to produce a string of Modrics rather than a string of Gareth Barrys.

 

[DogsOfWar]

Brave prediction D and I can see where you are coming from, there is a definite advancement in training in terms youth training, academies etc and we are starting to see the fruits of some of that but as ever my fear is that - as with previous eras - what we'll get (especially with the professional life span of the modern football being extended by vastly improved training regimes) is a continuation of wanky gutless managers keepping the medias favourite faces around ( a la Brooking and Keegan etc) and not having the bollocks to bring in these young talents until the old ****'s decide they've finished.

Beckham is a brilliant example. What the fuck is he still doing anywhere near that squad.

Couldn't agree more BC, I was going to add a similar point in my original post but didn't want to get too long winded.

For me the England team have no choice. As worcestersauce said there is no real continuation of our 28+ year olds to 25+ year olds so we need a radical re-think and look to jump straight down to the under 25's and plan for the next world cup rather than the intermediate Euros.

The one problem the England manager will have in trying to do this is that none of the under 25's, except for Rooney and Johnson*, play for a top four club and that won't go down well with the FA who always have an eye on marketing and sales.

*NB For all the pedants I know he's 25 but he's such a borderline case he needed including.

 

[DogsOfWar]

This is what I posted on another thread but I think its relevant here and my thoughts on the dearth of proper English talent coming through...

'I think youth football is far too structured at an early age - kids want to have fun, they want to have plenty of touches on the ball and don't want to be shouted at if, god forbid, they make a mistake. Kids learn more about football in the park and in the playground than training sessions which involve running around cones and ladders(sometimes it took my training sessions a good 45 minutes to actually get to touch a ball) and matches which involve having so few touches it's pointless whilst getting berated by every single parent on the touchline. Unfortunately a large majority of youth coaches are more interested in their jackets with their bloody initials on it and winning games at all costs. It really is cringeworthy when you have young kids who have been assigned a position, young kids who are taught how to master the offside trap, time wasting and cynical play before they can master the football.

If you take a wander down your local park on a sunday afternoon and watch youth football (without looking dodgy) all you'll hear is people shouting 'easy ball', 'hit 'im son', 'get rid', 'stop taking people on you greedy shit', 'play the way you're facing' I could go on all night - it's no small wonder we fail to consistently produce players who can do something different. Anyone who tries anything other than a simple ball played the way they are facing or a aimless punt upfield they get labelled a showpony who needs a good kicking. Sad, isn't it.'

This is a disease that is afflicting English football in my opinion, and the reason why we have looked elsewhere in the past and still do to bring genuine talent to the Premiership. I hope Dogs of War is right, and it is an excellent point.

I just want us to produce a string of Modrics rather than a string of Gareth Barrys.

Totally agree with your whole post and it is one of the saddest sights in youth football.
The first time I watched my nephew at U7's I got into a row with the manager
who didn't want them playing the ball out. I tried to explain that he should be coaching them for the future and not now but he was only interested in winning the game. They were 6 years old for Christ's sake!

But, the difference now is that local senior sides are getting hold of these youngsters at around 8 (I assume there are rules from getting them any younger). My nephew has now gone into the Peterborough United academy and it's a whole different ball game. Local lads that he has known are in QPR, Arsenal and Chelsea academies and are safe from these idiots.

The other big change I noticed was in the kid's mentality. When I was playing both at youth and senior level and we had a kick around it was put the keeper (me) between the sticks and try to smash the ball past him.
Now they prefer to knock the ball to each other, to keep it, have a few keepy uppys, a flick, a trick, and then play it back. When they are on their own or with a few mates it's not just the disorganised mass game of who can score the most but who can do the most.

The old skool fans in this country have spent a lot of time bemoaning the amount of foreign coaches and players in the PL just as they bemoan the kids who try to play football and not play it long.
But the players of today are coming through the academies that have been set up by them and it is them we will have to thank in the next 10 years when we finally get to see an England team play football 'the right way'.

 

[worcestersauce]

Well done DEFchenkOE I didn’t check the number out just took them at their word but the list highlights the situation quite well I think.
From your list I believe only Nigel Reo-Coker, Kieron Richardson, Steve Sidwell &
Jermaine Jenas fit the central midfield category in the age group 24 – 27 so is that group of four the England squad for the following world cup? Or will England stick with what it’s got until the next generation comes along mind you only Jamie O’Hara and Tom Huddlestone are in the age group below that?

As it happens I agree with you DOW about the number of good young players coming through but I think that golden age is eight to ten years away as all the names people mention seem to be teenagers.
I just hope I live to see it.

 

[Vecellio]

Just a couple of minor points: whilst i agree with many of the coaching criticisms mentioned, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the 'easy ball' advice. That's a key skill in football to learn that the simplest thing is often the best. Even a player like Cantona played the easy ball most of the time.

And point two: Beckham is still in the squad because he's doing the business for Milan and his delivery is by and large still first class. Miles ahead of Lennon (etc.) when you just need a pinpoint cross. Was this a trick question?

 

[ShelfSide18]

Totally agree with your whole post and it is one of the saddest sights in youth football.
The first time I watched my nephew at U7's I got into a row with the manager
who didn't want them playing the ball out. I tried to explain that he should be coaching them for the future and not now but he was only interested in winning the game. They were 6 years old for Christ's sake!

It's the cancer of youth football, I played from U8s to U18s and have seen it all, when you try and take a free kick and the manager instructs one of his players to 'stand on the ball' it really does make you wonder. When I confronted said manager he just called me a silly prick. I never saw much thought for the future, it was all about picking up 3 points on a sunday morning - how sad. My team won a lot of games because we were 'blessed' with the 4th fastest sprinter in his age category in Britain. If you have a 14 year old who can do the 100 in 11 seconds you have a striker that makes the midfield look like Glenn Hoddle with through ball after through ball that ends up in a chance. He was a naff footballer, once when injured I counted he had 32 one on ones and scored 8. Brilliant, well done!

But, the difference now is that local senior sides are getting hold of these youngsters at around 8 (I assume there are rules from getting them any younger). My nephew has now gone into the Peterborough United academy and it's a whole different ball game. Local lads that he has known are in QPR, Arsenal and Chelsea academies and are safe from these idiots.

I hope you are right but, forgive my cynicism, it will take a hell of a lot to convince me. I actually went on the Fa Level 1 coaching award course in 2005 and it might as well have been a gnvq in cone and clipboard management to be quite honest - although as you say they will be safer from the complete idiots! Incidentally, whilst on this course the guy who won the TV programme 'football icon' was on it too and whilst he was a good, solid player I was left thinking, do we really need a good, solid player? I think that left to the idiots we will produce long ball merchants, with the current youth set ups we will produce good, solid but unspectacular players but with a radical change in our footballing culture that still bears the scars of Charles Hughes early 1990s era football we might start producing Modrics, Kakas, Messis? This is where my point about football being too structured at an early age comes in because with the right footballing culture the park and playground become the best place to learn to master the football with no structured, methodical learning. You teach yourself the ball, rather than let someone else teach you if you get what I'm saying. As it stands however, I think that these kids are better off in the safety of the academies!

The other big change I noticed was in the kid's mentality. When I was playing both at youth and senior level and we had a kick around it was put the keeper (me) between the sticks and try to smash the ball past him.
Now they prefer to knock the ball to each other, to keep it, have a few keepy uppys, a flick, a trick, and then play it back. When they are on their own or with a few mates it's not just the disorganised mass game of who can score the most but who can do the most.

Good points, it reminds me of a Brazilian player who was asked about the difference between England and Brazil. He answered quite simply, you English get a ball, pick teams and play against each other, we get the ball, stand in a circle and play with each other.

I have seen a few encouraging signs like you say where it appears young kids are rejecting this feral and rampant football culture, but there is a long way to go yet.

The old skool fans in this country have spent a lot of time bemoaning the amount of foreign coaches and players in the PL just as they bemoan the kids who try to play football and not play it long.
But the players of today are coming through the academies that have been set up by them and it is them we will have to thank in the next 10 years when we finally get to see an England team play football 'the right way'.

I bloody hope you're right.

 

[ShelfSide18]

Ok I cocked up the quote things in there, can't be bothered to edit it though!

 

[Vecellio]

England has started to dominate in league terms with the PL, in European terms with the CL, and now I think it will start to dominate in world terms with the national team. It's just that it takes 20 years for the final part to work through because it cannot be bought in.

Hmmm. All the very best players are now in La Liga (imo) so i'm not sure how you can say the PL dominates now..?

I really really doubt that England will ever dominate football at national level. Maybe they will eventually be technically equal to spain or whatever, that in itself is a big maybe. Domination? Can't see it happening myself.

As an aside when i was growing up football wasn't really considered a career option (i suspect) for most of the more educated/intelligent kids (don't wanna sound too arrogant here..but there were just other options). Maybe the sheer amount of money in the game today will change or has already changed that in a major way...dunno.

 

[Bonjour]

We won't need a team of players in the future. We'll be able to just field Bostock to defeat entire teams single handedly.


And stuff.