Summer 2023 squad discussion

worcestersauce · Aug 28, 2023

I think what we've got now will bring us European football next term, we're not going to win the title so the only thing at stake is a shot at CL. Will a new striker or CB make the difference? Maybe maybe not but is it really such a no brainer or might we be better developing our players and style this year and get better options next year?

dontcallme · Aug 28, 2023

worcestersauce said:
I think what we've got now will bring us European football next term, we're not going to win the title so the only thing at stake is a shot at CL. Will a new striker or CB make the difference? Maybe maybe not but is it really such a no brainer or might we be better developing our players and style this year and get better options next year?

I think this is the challenge of squad building.

We have no European football so a smaller squad might be enough. If we start Romero and VDV with Dier or Sanchez playing occasionally, we'll be fine.

But if Romero or VDV get injured for any length of time then playing Dier or Sanchez could ruin our league campaign.

Up front part of me thinks this is the chance for the manager to work with Richarlison and bring him up a level. But if we have a non-scoring striker who doesn't offer enough in all round play, again this can ruin the league campaign.

Ange needs to work out quickly if he can get something out of Richarlison. If not, we definitely need a striker.

N17-77 · Aug 28, 2023

A thought.
We must have registered (up to) 25 players already. Some must not be registered currently.

I assume we can deregister players and register others up to the deadline.

Wonder whether those players not yet in matchday squads have actually even been registered? We had the same 20 players for ManU and Bou. Plus Austin on bench vs Brentford. Udogie and Sarr are u21. So we only know we've registered 19 players. (Though maybe actual registrations are out there somewhere?)

The point being, none of these over-21 players are confirmed as registered for PL: Lloris, Whiteman, Reguilón, Tanganga, Dier, Ndombele, Lyons-Foster, Sessegnon, Gil.

worcestersauce · Aug 28, 2023

dontcallme said:
I think this is the challenge of squad building.

We have no European football so a smaller squad might be enough. If we start Romero and VDV with Dier or Sanchez playing occasionally, we'll be fine.

But if Romero or VDV get injured for any length of time then playing Dier or Sanchez could ruin our league campaign.

Up front part of me thinks this is the chance for the manager to work with Richarlison and bring him up a level. But if we have a non-scoring striker who doesn't offer enough in all round play, again this can ruin the league campaign.

Ange needs to work out quickly if he can get something out of Richarlison. If not, we definitely need a striker.

My point is more relevant to the striker situation I guess.

dontcallme · Aug 28, 2023

worcestersauce said:
My point is more relevant to the striker situation I guess.

It's a difficult one. I was in favour of signing Richarlison as I thought he added to our options of Kane, Son and Kulusevski. Now he's number 1 choice for the 9 spot and if he continues as he is, it'll affect our chance of top 4.

But I'm not convinced we can buy a quality player that'll just slot in straight away either.

BENNO · Aug 28, 2023

worcestersauce said:
I think what we've got now will bring us European football next term, we're not going to win the title so the only thing at stake is a shot at CL. Will a new striker or CB make the difference? Maybe maybe not but is it really such a no brainer or might we be better developing our players and style this year and get better options next year?

Yeah fair point and a difficult one tbh.

Although we've only seen a very small sample size of games, i'd imagine everyone from Levy to the fans feels the same way about Ange and what might be possible under him. But everyone needs to take a step back and remember that 4 months ago we were a shambles, and 3 months ago we were expecting a 8th-10th finish in what was going to be very much a rebuild season under a totally different style of coach.

That's all out the window now imo and i agree, with a bit of luck with injuries, this squad playing the 'Ange' way is good enough for top 6 or 7 at the very least, if not that 5th final CL spot available this season.

I'd definitely be in the camp of wanting the board to acknowledge the work Ange has already done and be brave, push the boat out and get in a couple of really good players to supplement the squad and try to do something even better than expected this season, but i also think that Ange and the board must have sat down at the very beginning and planned a strategy for how they'd do things over the next year or so, and i'd be a little worried about trying to force an unnatural acceleration of that......although as i say, i feel the same way as everyone else in that Ange really does feel like the real deal and backing him now could see him take us higher, far quicker than anyone dared dream of.

THOWIG · Aug 28, 2023

I really don’t get this whole mentality of “don’t sign him etc…as he won’t won’t to sit on the bench” We need quality in depth. If we lose Van De Ven or Romero we’re in trouble. If we lose Maddison we’re in trouble.

I understand we don’t have European football, but in one or two areas we’re an injury or two away from being in danger.

A centre back and a striker/forward is a minimum for me. Add a top class striker to this team currently and we can start pushing our expectations.

Oscar22 · Aug 28, 2023

THOWIG said:
I really don’t get this whole mentality of “don’t sign him etc…as he won’t won’t to sit on the bench” We need quality in depth. If we lose Van De Ven or Romero we’re in trouble. If we lose Maddison we’re in trouble.

I understand we don’t have European football, but in one or two areas we’re an injury or two away from being in danger.

A centre back and a striker/forward is a minimum for me. Add a top class striker to this team currently and we can start pushing our expectations.

It’s been a thing here for a long time, really holds us back. It’s like we can only expect to have 11 decent players and anything else has to be mediocre as a 12th good player won’t fancy his chances of game time.

THOWIG · Aug 28, 2023

Oscar22 said:
It’s been a thing here for a long time, really holds us back. It’s like we can only expect to have 11 decent players and anything else has to be mediocre as a 12th good player won’t fancy his chances of game time.

Exactly. It requires a big mentality shift.

dontcallme · Aug 28, 2023

For squad players I think you have to look at what the big clubs do.

City buy high quality young players. They integrate into the squad while being squad players.

Utd have bought world class ageing players like Cavani and Zlatan. Quality players who are enjoying a big pay day and have no issue with being squad players.

Expecting us to buy top quality in their prime and expecting them to be happy to sit on the bench is unrealistic.

There’s more to assembling a squad than “buy top quality.” It’s more complex than that.

Whazam · Aug 28, 2023

dontcallme said:
For squad players I think you have to look at what the big clubs do.

City buy high quality young players. They integrate into the squad while being squad players.

Utd have bought world class ageing players like Cavani and Zlatan. Quality players who are enjoying a big pay day and have no issue with being squad players.

Expecting us to buy top quality in their prime and expecting them to be happy to sit on the bench is unrealistic.

There’s more to assembling a squad than “buy top quality.” It’s more complex than that.

Totally agree. And part of the reason neither Zlatan nor Cavani lasted very long in United was because they weren't comfortable being just squad players. And the high quality young players grow impatient all the time. So even these, the two safest routes for finding adequate squad players, are sure things.

I'm sure all of us would like as many quality players as possible for each position, but the fact is there's always going to be a first choice/favourite, and very few players would be happy being an understudy. It's an almost impossible, and ever-changing, task to build a strong yet harmonious squad.

dontcallme · Aug 28, 2023

Whazam said:
Totally agree. And part of the reason neither Zlatan nor Cavani lasted very long in United was because they weren't comfortable being just squad players. And the high quality young players grow impatient all the time. So even these, the two safest routes for finding adequate squad players, are sure things.

I'm sure all of us would like as many quality players as possible for each position, but the fact is there's always going to be a first choice/favourite, and very few players would be happy being an understudy. It's an almost impossible, and ever-changing, task to build a strong yet harmonious squad.

Yep. A lot of good squad last at a club 2-3 years. Slightly less if ageing.

Chadli was a very good squad player. Good attitude and goals/assists ratio. But after a while had to move on for his career.

Depending on the stage of their career you can buy good players to be squad players. As we have seen with our current crop, if they stay too long they often stagnate.

HotSprut · Aug 28, 2023

I know HG is a necessity, but man is the thought of selling Kane and bringing in Johnson/Tosin/Maguire depressing

spursville · Aug 28, 2023

worcestersauce said:
I think what we've got now will bring us European football next term, we're not going to win the title so the only thing at stake is a shot at CL. Will a new striker or CB make the difference? Maybe maybe not but is it really such a no brainer or might we be better developing our players and style this year and get better options next year?

I guess it depends if we can get better value this year (for example look how quickly Ferguson's value has shot up in a year) and/or whether Parrott, Scarlett and other youth players are considered promising enough.

spursville · Aug 28, 2023

HotSprut said:
I know HG is a necessity, but man is the thought of selling Kane and bringing in Johnson/Tosin/Maguire depressing

Could all end up being deadwood which is exactly the repeated mistake we've made in the past.

Yiddo100 · Aug 28, 2023

HotSprut said:
I know HG is a necessity, but man is the thought of selling Kane and bringing in Johnson/Tosin/Maguire depressing

Johnson is in a completely different bracket than Tosin and maguire imo, Johnson is an exciting young player. The other 2 are back ups at best.
The main thing is Tosin and Maguire don’t look like they’re going to join and in maguire case I doubt we’re even interested.

Archibald-CPH · Aug 28, 2023

Maguire in Anges high line..........

spurs9 · Aug 28, 2023

HotSprut said:
I know HG is a necessity, but man is the thought of selling Kane and bringing in Johnson/Tosin/Maguire depressing

Agree on Maguire but Johnson is a young, quick, HG wide player, with alot of goals and assists for his age (even if they are mostly in the lower leagues) and it will be interesting to see how much his game benefits from playing in an attacking system.

Tosin is HG and has the ideal profile for CB in Ange's system, even if his quality isn't quite the level to be a starter, he is ideal for 3rd choice IMO.

Both good signings for squad building and would mean we don't need to worry about HG when replacing Spence, Sessegnon and Davies.

We still desperately need a #9 though and it is a worry we aren't going in for one, but I would expect that to be addressed in January barring a miracle turn around from Richarlison. Vlahvovic would be ideal IMO.

I also think signing a couple of South American players and leaving them at their clubs until their season ends at the end of September would be a great idea, specifically Marcus Leonardo and Redondo, the latter of which could really help ease the pressure of losing Sarr and Bissouma to the AFCON and Son to the Asian Cup.

GetSpurredOn · Aug 29, 2023

spurs9 said:
We still desperately need a #9 though and it is a worry we aren't going in for one, but I would expect that to be addressed in January barring a miracle turn around from Richarlison. Vlahvovic would be ideal IMO.

I also think signing a couple of South American players and leaving them at their clubs until their season ends at the end of September would be a great idea, specifically Marcus Leonardo and Redondo, the latter of which could really help ease the pressure of losing Sarr and Bissouma to the AFCON and Son to the Asian Cup.

Tosin would not have been my first choice, however VdV has hit the ground running better than I expected, so as backup CB, homegrown too, I think he shortens the drop off in calibre. That’s on the assumption he wants to come. Maguire puts the fear of god into me, if we go down the opportunistic path rather than the calculated best fit.
Johnson, likewise, perhaps would not have been my first choice, but I can see the qualities he would bring giving us something different off the right. I’d have liked a clinical central striker, but if we add goals from multiple areas, maybe a focal goal scorer is not quite as important. You could argue it’s harder to defend against also.
Your final point would make a decent window into a very good window, couple more high potential players from South America, even if we did have to wait till January. Those two in particular would address a need. Redondo capable of being the natural Bissouma backup as a deep midfielder, and Leonardo a clinical central striker.

bbunc · Aug 29, 2023

One other note on HG…. Recall that you only get 4 association trained HG slots in Europe. Anything above that takes up one of the 17 non-HG slots.

Forster
Maddison
Davies
Sess
]Johnson]
[Tosin]

I suppose we’ll move on from Forster, Sess and Davies before too too long, but it is something to keep and eye on.

We really need a few of the academy guys to come through in the next 2-3 seasons so we have some club trained quality

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