The Daily ITK Discussion Thread - THE DEADLINE

Tezza1978 · Feb 1, 2023

WiganSpur said:
- Maybe one of Sanchez, Tanganga, Davies, Emerson, Reguilon, Gil, Lo Celso, Rodon, Sessegnon, Ndombele and Winks sold

On this point - that looks too pessimistic. Think we will sell or release at least 5 or 6 of those at a minimum - Lo Celso, Rodon, Ndombele, Reguilon and Winks would be my 5, and I think Sanchez is next most lilkely.

Tanganga and Sess may stay for HG reasons/backup. Possibly Emerson too (groan) as he is probably OK as a squad player when looking to defend a lead against poorer teams. I think Davies is a good squad player to keep and Gil may well be retained as an alternative to another AM, if Danjuma is made perm as Lucas will be released.

WiganSpur · Feb 1, 2023

Timberwolf said:
Yeah - we're always going to be a position or two behind next summer.

As soon as we fix CB and GK we'll need to figure out how we go about replacing two irreplaceable players in Kane and Son. It's going to take at least 2 more windows until we've got true strength/depth in all areas.

I suppose one positive is that with players like Udogie and Sarr we've hopefully laid the groundwork in those positions. If they can both step up over the next year or so that gives us a massive boost in 2 positions. The last young player we successfully brought through in that way was probably Alli and it's been far, far too long since then. Maybe Skipp, but he's not a true first teamer yet.

I mean you can see it over the next 2 years tbh. Who would need signing for us to be league challengers?

1 Keeper
3-4 centre backs
Possibly 1 RWB
A Perisic replacement
A creative player
A Son succession plan
A Kane replacement

10 quality players over the next two to three windows. Absolutely no chance of it happening unless 2-3 of them are free transfers and or Scarlett or others come good.

Bluto Blutarsky · Feb 1, 2023

andyp8080 said:
i'm going to defend Davies a bit here. Every club needs players like this in the squad. Not one of the top earners, never rocks the boat, never complains, does his job when called upon. Not the most spectacular player in the world, and not the best left sided defender in the world, but always puts a shift in

The problem with Davies (and Dier) - is that they are squad players with major roles. It's not that they are bad players, or bad influences. Squad players should not have major roles at a club entering their 10th season - that is exactly how/why clubs get stale.

14/15 Players still with Club - and minutes played:

Spurs - Lloris(1800), Kane (1833), Dier (1733), Davies (1255), Winks (0) - 6,661 minutes

Man City - No players

Arsenal - No players

Manchester United - De Gea (1800), Shaw (1322), Jones (0) - 3,122 minutes

Liverpool - Henderson (880) - 880 minutes

Chelsea - Azpilicueta (983), Loftus Cheek (950) - 1,933 minutes

You don't get better as a squad by keeping players like Dier and Davies for 10 years - neither are good enough - even if they are "good squad players". Good teams refresh, and bring in younger players, and don't leave themselves in a position of needing to upgrade so many players all at once.

If we had upgraded Dier and Davies last summer, and even left them as "squad players" we would be in contention for the league title right now.

Timberwolf · Feb 1, 2023

WiganSpur said:
I mean you can see it over the next 2 years tbh. Who would need signing?

1 Keeper
4 centre backs
Possibly 1 RWB
A Perisic replacement
A creative player
A Son succession plan
A Kane replacement

10 quality players over the next two to three windows. Absolutely no chance of it happening unless 2-3 of them are free transfers.

Well I don't think we'll necessarily need all of that. Even peak Liverpool and City racking up almost 100 points didn't have perfect depth in every position. Liverpool's backups for TAA, Salah and VVD were pretty shocking for years, and City once started a season under Pep with only 3 senior CBs.

1 Keeper - yes 100%
4 centre backs - This hugely depends on our next manager. We'll probably only need 2 (or 3 if we stay with a back 3). In reality someone like Dier as a 5th choice is fine and similar to most other top teams 5th choices.
Possibly 1 RWB - Again dependent on manager and what happens with Spence. Certainly a possibility.
A Perisic replacement - Udogie is basically the long term Perisic replacement, with Sess the backup.
A creative player - Yes 100%
A Son succession plan - Yes, but with Rich we're already part of the way there. I agree we'd need another player there long term though.
A Kane replacement - Yes 100%

I think around 6-7 decent signings in the next 2 windows is realistic and would cover most bases.

The boy hoddle · Feb 1, 2023

Archibald&Crooks said:
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WiganSpur · Feb 1, 2023

Timberwolf said:
Well I don't think we'll necessarily need all of that. Even peak Liverpool and City racking up almost 100 points didn't have perfect depth in every position. Liverpool's backups for TAA, Salah and VVD were pretty shocking for years, and City once started a season under Pep with only 3 senior CBs.

1 Keeper - yes 100%
4 centre backs - This hugely depends on our next manager. We'll probably only need 2 (or 3 if we stay with a back 3). In reality someone like Dier as a 5th choice is fine and similar to most other top teams 5th choices.
Possibly 1 RWB - Again dependent on manager and what happens with Spence. Certainly a possibility.
A Perisic replacement - Udogie is basically the long term Perisic replacement, with Sess the backup.
A creative player - Yes 100%
A Son succession plan - Yes, but with Rich we're already part of the way there. I agree we'd need another player there long term though.
A Kane replacement - Yes 100%

I think around 6-7 decent signings in the next 2 windows is realistic and would cover most bases.

I think this discussion also tells me that there is absolutely no point in keeping Conte if Kane is on his way out - not that he would stay anyway I guess. And the next appointment would have to be someone who could work within a budget and promote youth players where necessary. Under ENIC that's our only chance of success because they aren't going to buy their way to the top at a fast enough rate otherwise.

loststar · Feb 1, 2023

knowlespurs said:
No we have prob just pissed 5m up the wall for no reason

you know we didn't have to let him go? we had a choice....

Setzthree · Feb 1, 2023

It's easy to have a negative outlook in the grand scheme of things, but fuck it. I'm excited to see Porro in action and Danjuma had a bright debut.
Roll on the rest of the season.

Dakes · Feb 1, 2023

ShriekinKnight said:

Hahaha! Flippin' hell. What a circus. Man City falling foul of FFP and Loans FC falling foul of loan rules.

Dakes · Feb 1, 2023

sidford said:
Come on lads I'm all for knocking levy and club strategy but least releasing Doherty actually solves an issue. For too long we have accused levy of hanging on to players for too long etc I'm glad we've gotten rid of a player that isn't good enough for us and no one was going to buy from us.
That is a change in tact from us which I hope continues on. Too many below average players in our squad, need to ship them out any way we can.

Agreed, but again, another good move that came about due to a clusterfuck. If only we can start doing these sort of things with foresight.

Dakes · Feb 1, 2023

I can imagine the shock Doc had discovering that his 'see you later' became a 'goodbye' mid medical

Yapptiestrap · Feb 1, 2023

Bluto Blutarsky said:
The problem with Davies (and Dier) - is that they are squad players with major roles. It's not that they are bad players, or bad influences. Squad players should not have major roles at a club entering their 10th season - that is exactly how/why clubs get stale.

14/15 Players still with Club - and minutes played:

Spurs - Lloris(1800), Kane (1833), Dier (1733), Davies (1255), Winks (0) - 6,661 minutes

Man City - No players

Arsenal - No players

Manchester United - De Gea (1800), Shaw (1322), Jones (0) - 3,122 minutes

Liverpool - Henderson (880) - 880 minutes

Chelsea - Azpilicueta (983), Loftus Cheek (950) - 1,933 minutes

You don't get better as a squad by keeping players like Dier and Davies for 10 years - neither are good enough - even if they are "good squad players". Good teams refresh, and bring in younger players, and don't leave themselves in a position of needing to upgrade so many players all at once.

If we had upgraded Dier and Davies last summer, and even left them as "squad players" we would be in contention for the league title right now.

Far too many players have been here too long. Dier, Davies, Hugo etc.

Its why I’m unbothered by Doherty. At least he’s gone. One less problem to deal with next summer that would take time away from other priorities

Mycroft Jones · Feb 1, 2023

I'm slightly confused by all this as the FIFA loan regulations state that under 21s and club trained players are exempt from the new international loan rules. Wouldn't that mean that neither Udogie or Winks should count towards this season's limit of 8?

I must be missing something.

chrisd2k · Feb 1, 2023

I'm happy to release players because we don't seem to be able to sell them and we always get the same line of we need to get rid to make space in the squad.

Problem is it would be nice to be organised and professional in that approach.... Lolz

chas vs dave · Feb 1, 2023

brasil_spur said:
I don't think anyone (or at least anyone worth listening to) is making out the termination was bad, just that it seems/seemed that the club got caught with their paints down on this as they didn't know about the 8 outgoing loans limit. If that was the case then it is fucking horrendous and frankly in any other sector would have resulted in someone getting fired over it.

No gets fired for mistakes. I've worked in industries bigger where mistakes far worst than this have been made. People don't get fired.

It was mentioned by an ITK 2-3 weeks ago that we could release players to free up space. People assumed it would be moura who would go.

Trix · Feb 1, 2023

chas vs dave said:
No gets fired for mistakes. I've worked in industries bigger where mistakes far worst than this have been made. People don't get fired.

It was mentioned by an ITK 2-3 weeks ago that we could release players to free up space. People assumed it would be moura who would go.

Because it was Moura I was talking about. He wants to go back home and has 6 months left on his contract. Doc was not part of some cunning plan, it was making the best of a cock up. :ROFLMAO:

chas vs dave · Feb 1, 2023

Trix said:
Because it was Moura I was talking about. He wants to go back home and has 6 months left on his contract. Doc was not part of some cunning plan, it was making the best of a cock up.

Did we know spence was going to end up on loan in France? To me this was a bit of an unexpected development.

KingNick · Feb 1, 2023

chas vs dave said:
No gets fired for mistakes. I've worked in industries bigger where mistakes far worst than this have been made. People don't get fired.

It was mentioned by an ITK 2-3 weeks ago that we could release players to free up space. People assumed it would be moura who would go.

And if the incompetence around not knowing the rules also meant we didn’t bring in certain targets on loan because we wrongly believed we couldn’t, and therefore the team is weaker and we don’t achieve CL, then that is simply a mistake which shouldn’t have consequence? Knowing the regs is a fundamental part of at least one persons job.

you are obviously lucky if you work in an industry where fundamental mistakes are forgiven. In elite sport, No chance.

I’ve seen club secretaries the whole way across professional football get the boot for messing up registration issues.

rebrab · Feb 1, 2023

I really don’t get the negativity tbh. I also don’t believe Doherty out was a cock up, if it was a cock up I reckon we would have just held tight until the summer. Seems like we basically did a zero pound termination which is a result for a 31YO with 18mths on his contract who will struggle to get on the bench.

We’ve replaced our biggest problem position and got required cover up top. We haven’t signed a top CB but if the right player isn’t available then they’re not available and it’s right to wait until summer. The only rival who has had a better window than us is Chelsea IMO.

God knows the reaction if we’d signed Jack Butland, Weghorst and Sabitzer (to replace Eriksen out until Jan)…

I am still ENIC out btw.

razor1981 · Feb 1, 2023

Mycroft Jones said:
I'm slightly confused by all this as the FIFA loan regulations state that under 21s and club trained players are exempt from the new international loan rules. Wouldn't that mean that neither Udogie or Winks should count towards this season's limit of 8?

I must be missing something.

When FIFA first announced that these new regulations were coming in, their own press release certainly gave the impression that players who were either under 21 or club-trained would be exempt. The press release stated "Players aged 21 and younger and club-trained players will be exempt from these limitations." (see here: https://www.fifa.com/about-fifa/organisation/media-releases/fifa-to-introduce-new-loan-regulations).

But in 'Explanatory Notes' subsequently published by FIFA in November, the following clarification was made: "The limit on the number of loans will thus not apply to players who are loaned prior to the end of the season of the former club in which they turn 21 AND provided that they are club-trained players with the former club. For the sake of clarity, the two conditions are cumulative". (see here: https://digitalhub.fifa.com/m/78565...ons-on-the-Status-and-Transfer-of-Players.pdf).

I don't know how the new regulations were initially communicated to clubs when they first came into force in July, but the fact that FIFA felt the need to produce these explanatory notes just 4 months later maybe suggests that the original communication hadn't been very clear/effective.

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