The beginning of the end...

Wadec said:

Dont disagree that Pep has spent much more and it is a huge help. I do think there is more to it than that though. Feel Pep coaches his team and sets them up from a tactical viewpoint much better than Poch.

Truth be told we would never know how each would have done in the others position. My biggest worry is the way we set up and play has got worse over time.

Ad you say, this was a good window so we should reap the rewards this season and in future seasons to come.

Click to expand...

I agree with that it's hard to tell if they switched.(Pep +/Poch)
Also I think our defence before with Poch were very tough and very good... Our defence is a lot weaker while our attack is better but the key is if we can get the ball to them quick enough NDombele will cover that I think (I also hope)

Phomesy said:

It's called SPURS Community. The Klopp yearning I can just about stomach but this revolting love in for a bloke who chooses to take Oil Slaver money while taking the moral high ground on every other single issue is disgusting and should be the antithesis of what Spurs are all about.

What on earth is going on?

Click to expand...

And we as Spurs fans are discussing...Spurs.

This thread has shown there is quite a clear divide among the members on this forum. Some are concerned about our quite dramatic decline and are talking about why that has happened and how that can be solved (with most actually hoping Poch turns it round). Then there are some who are backing Poch to the hilt and do not believe there is an issue.

I think that’s a fairly healthy debate to have. The fact there are so many who have concerns based on a number of factors, with one of those being uncertainty around Poch and his mindset, I think we have the right to discuss his shortcomings and compare him to his peers. He is paid £6m a year...we have every right to analyse his performance...good and bad.

Phomesy said:

Pep would give his fucking soul to have beaten us in the CL.

Can you imagine an Oil slaver fan writing "Exactly would Poch have allowed his players to have a CL record like ours against them given the Oil Slave billions he's been denied"?

There's a reason Pep goes where the fucking money is. The fact he chooses to oil wash Oil Slavers says all you need to know about Pep Guardiola - however good a coach he is.

What a sewer this thread is becoming - and it started pretty close to the gutter.

Click to expand...

Yet you can’t leave it alone ?‍

jolegend said:

You are right. Not matching up to Pep isn’t a criticism of Poch.

Click to expand...

the thing is, and I will aim this @shelfboy too, Pep has never taken on a team that's not had the highest or an equal high in resources. if you can have a squad of 18+ internationals it would be very hard to not win everything in sight. fair enough he sets a team up to play but when you have quality x2 for the majority of positions, that quality will always shine through.

he struggled in his 1st season, and spent a fortune to get the missing players, he had the talents at Barca, and when he was at Bayern. he has never challenged himself with a team without the resources, and even if he did I doubt he would get the same results, just like he did in his 1st attempt

jolegend said:

Interesting point regarding Aurier. Clearly one that Poch wanted, if you assume he was an agreed target for the transfer committee.

But he has pretty much put him out to pasture and didn’t really persist with him at the start of his career with us. We now have an issue at right back and have totally sidelined an option. I’ve never particularly rated him so I’m not overly fussed whether Aurier stays or goes. But Poch must hold his hand up (internally of course, not publicly) and say he got that one wrong. But Poch does seem to have a tendency to want certain players and give up on them quickly. Jansen, and Nkoudou bombed pretty quickly too. Fazio and Njie to a lesser extent as I’m not too sure if the transfer committee was in place at that time.

No manger is ever going to get his purchases 100% right but I’m not entirely convinced in Pochs ability to spot a player and that is something I have mentioned on this forum a few times over the years.


Calm down. No ones forcing you in to the thread.

Click to expand...

Agree with you. Klopp works under a very similar set up to how Poch does at Spurs. The people saying Klopp was backed, well yes he was. Poch has also been backed this summer, we have signed two big talents from Europe which cost a fair whack. Yes we may lose Eriksen but Klopp lost Coutinho. I see little difference.

There is no doubt Klopp's eye for a player is exceptional. They signed some players from the German league like Matip and Firminio who have done well and were clearly Klopp buys. Pretty much all of their signings have been great. Klopp gets the final say on all players, and rejects the ones he doesn't, like Poch does.

Yet look at how many flops we have had, N'koudou, Janssen, Aurier, N'jie. Liverpool have also signed many players in this price bracket who have worked out really well.

I do think there are genuine concerns about Poch's ability to spot a player. It's all well and good signing Ndombele's and De Jong's who are known talents, but it's the lesser signings where you take a punt where he has been found wanting.

Pretty much all of our best performers under Poch were already at the club before he arrived.

Primativ said:

Agree with you. Klopp works under a very similar set up to how Poch does at Spurs. The people saying Klopp was backed, well yes he was. Poch has also been backed this summer, we have signed two big talents from Europe which cost a fair whack. Yes we may lose Eriksen but Klopp lost Coutinho. I see little difference.

There is no doubt Klopp's eye for a player is exceptional. They signed some players from the German league like Matip and Firminio who have done well and were clearly Klopp buys. Pretty much all of their signings have been great. Klopp gets the final say on all players, and rejects the ones he doesn't, like Poch does.

Yet look at how many flops we have had, N'koudou, Janssen, Aurier, N'jie. Liverpool have also signed many players in this price bracket who have worked out really well.

I do think there are genuine concerns about Poch's ability to spot a player. It's all well and good signing Ndombele's and De Jong's who are known talents, but it's the lesser signings where you take a punt where he has been found wanting.

Pretty much all of our best performers under Poch were already at the club before he arrived.

Click to expand...

Except for Toby, Trippier, Son, Dele, Moura, Sanchez, Sissoko, Davies you mean?

rossdapep said:

But it's his 6th year now.

I'd also state that the CL final and summer signings should be acting as a springboard to put us in the conversation. Yes, Poch still needs time to work his magic on the new players but the lack of positivity from him when we should have been going into this season with a positive and focused mind set.

I honestly think Poch likes to dwell on these negative aspects more and more lately. He should be saying "I can't wait to get the new players all out on the pitch". Instead he's saying Lo Celso is far far away and Ndombele is only at 30% of his ability. Positivity, Poch...remember?

Click to expand...

sorry but we are talking about 3 games in, where Poch has already stated GLC isn't ready yet. if you expected instant results because we spent money on 4 players, loaned 1 back, 1 was injured when he arrived, another arrived after having a 3 week holiday, and the other picking up an injury so early and thought we would be challenging straight off, then you are living in cloud cookoo land

It's almost as if everyone has been brainwashed by some covert facebook campaign to revise Poch's last 18 months at the club.

I can't quite believe some of the comments. It's clear there are issues, but don't for one minute underestimate Poch's achievements.

He needs to be afforded much more time than '3rd game in' to sort out the hand he has been dealt in the TW

Lighty64 said:

the thing is, and I will aim this @shelfboy too, Pep has never taken on a team that's not had the highest or an equal high in resources. if you can have a squad of 18+ internationals it would be very hard to not win everything in sight. fair enough he sets a team up to play but when you have quality x2 for the majority of positions, that quality will always shine through.

he struggled in his 1st season, and spent a fortune to get the missing players, he had the talents at Barca, and when he was at Bayern. he has never challenged himself with a team without the resources, and even if he did I doubt he would get the same results, just like he did in his 1st attempt

Click to expand...

100% with you on this. There is no doubt that he gets results but he has always had the resources to do what he wanted, he has never had to suffer with only getting 1-2 of his desired 4-5 targets, nor been hamstrung by other financial restraints.

I'd like to see him do like LVG did with Alkmaar and take a team that no one expects much from and win something with them.

LeParisien said:

Do you ever post anything positive ?

Click to expand...

I’m realistic ?

jolegend said:

And we as Spurs fans are discussing...Spurs.

This thread has shown there is quite a clear divide among the members on this forum. Some are concerned about our quite dramatic decline and are talking about why that has happened and how that can be solved (with most actually hoping Poch turns it round). Then there are some who are backing Poch to the hilt and do not believe there is an issue..

Click to expand...

That is a beautifully spun description of this thread (and I do genuinely applaud you for it) but as you must know it's massively disingenuous and ultimately dishonest.

We are ALL concerned about our league form since January.

Some of us are more inclined to acknowledge the massive injury crisis that preceded that form.

Some of us are more inclined to disregard making a Champion's League final as mitigation for said "quite dramatic decline".

And, as you must be very well aware, many posters on the ultra "concerned about dramatic decline" side of the argument aren't really "hoping Poch can turn it around" but are, in fact, shitting on is record from the last several seasons.

It's THIS that is causing the friction. And you must know it.

jolegend said:

I think that’s a fairly healthy debate to have. The fact there are so many who have concerns based on a number of factors, with one of those being uncertainty around Poch and his mindset, I think we have the right to discuss his shortcomings and compare him to his peers. He is paid £6m a year...we have every right to analyse his performance...good and bad.

Click to expand...

The problem with beautifully spun arguments is that they inevitably fail at what is the most important part of being a football fan. We are supposed to be parochial. We are supposed to err on the side of - well... our "side".

You are talking about this with all the passion of a hedge fund trader sizing up a potential hostile takeover. Poch has delivered more than any of us have seen in our Premier League lifetime. That should inspire more loyalty and belief than what's being shown here.

Especially when he's being compared unfavourably to a bloke who has only ever managed the best going. With unlimited funds and is now drowning in Oil slave money. This is NOT SPURS. This is anti-spurs.

And that rankles.

shelfboy68 said:

With respect to yourself it sounds like another load of excuses again surely the weather was hardly artic conditions when city pressed us relentlessly.
The eriksen situation we must have seen coming so why the fuss surrounding it as for lo celso you probably won't see him start until Christmas another of pochs demands that they can't play until he deems them ready.
It's not just about three games it's been going on for all last season the team has got progressively worse, I hope for all our sakes that he can turn it around and we suddenly become this fast flowing, super defending team.

Click to expand...

10 degrees is a big difference when playing a high intensity sport. I don't think they payed with that intensity from what I watched v Bournemouth

daryl hannah said:

It's almost as if everyone has been brainwashed by some covert facebook campaign to revise Poch's last 18 months at the club.

I can't quite believe some of the comments. It's clear there are issues, but don't for one minute underestimate Poch's achievements.

He needs to be afforded much more time than '3rd game in' to sort out the hand he has been dealt in the TW

Click to expand...

totally agree, the worrying thing is IF, he has lost the dressing room. that is a major concern. @ValenciaYid said he has lost them, and it depends how many of them. Poch has always had unity after getting rid of the bad eggs when he 1st joined.

none of us know what the problems are, but even the fact that after 5 seasons, it's a shock Jan would return back unfit knowing the standards that are set. none of us know how long this is being going on for either, but Poch hasn't come over the same ever since Mourinho was sacked in his PC's.

our style of play has changed, and I honestly believe the high press isn't being as strongly used to save burnout, and last season those players were burnt out. most of them played 114 matches with Spurs over the last 2 seasons, a WC, never had any break and played a lot of high intensity international matches on top. they are not robots, as we saw last season, must of been our worst season in a very long time with injuries. our 1st 2 real good seasons of seeing that press our squad was the youngest, and the opposition didn't stick 10 men behind the ball from KO

it has also been mentioned a 1000 times in here (not this thread, the forum) that Poch is pretty stubborn and has his favourites. well 1 of those is obviously Lloris as he is captain, but surely that must upset a few players because his drink drive is a crime. it was only the speed he was doing that saved him a bigger punishment, but is definitely not something people would look up to and have as much respect. we also saw Moura lose out playing in the final, yet Kane has never returned from injury all guns blazing. that final was the biggest game in the clubs history and should of played the best XI fit and ready players, and brought Kane on later.

not being funny but if there is a falling out going on with Jan, that might of been going on for sometime, he is entering his last season, after 2 previous being our best CB. 1 of his best mates has been as good as told his contract won't be renewed and is also in his last season, and the other left last winter. with their ties to Ajax I also expect Eriksen to be one of his good mates, and no one knows how he is being treated. Myself I wished Jan had been given the captaincy before Lloris ever got it, and going by the fact Toby is being a regular I kind of wish he would now be offered a new 1, and see if that helps fix any of the mess that's going on within our club.

daryl hannah said:

It's almost as if everyone has been brainwashed by some covert facebook campaign to revise Poch's last 18 months at the club.

I can't quite believe some of the comments. It's clear there are issues, but don't for one minute underestimate Poch's achievements.

He needs to be afforded much more time than '3rd game in' to sort out the hand he has been dealt in the TW

Click to expand...

No one doubts his achievements, we have lost our identity on the pitch. It needs to be fixed and soon.

rossdapep said:

But it's his 6th year now.

I'd also state that the CL final and summer signings should be acting as a springboard to put us in the conversation. Yes, Poch still needs time to work his magic on the new players but the lack of positivity from him when we should have been going into this season with a positive and focused mind set.

Click to expand...

Our new signings have barely played, none of them started in the loss that’s set this thread off.

And honestly I think it’s completely mad to expect us to be anywhere near City right now with our new signings not settled and not really fit, Dele out, Eriksen trying to force his way out and Son having been suspended for 2 out of 3 games. Maybe we’ll get there eventually but if we do it’ll be with a largely fit and settled squad mid way through the season, if your expectations are for us to be in the title race this year then you were always going to be disappointed. We were miles away from City last season and haven’t been close to putting out our best side so far in this one, why do you think we should be playing at a level that “puts us in the conversation”?

Lighty64 said:

sorry but we are talking about 3 games in, where Poch has already stated GLC isn't ready yet. if you expected instant results because we spent money on 4 players, loaned 1 back, 1 was injured when he arrived, another arrived after having a 3 week holiday, and the other picking up an injury so early and thought we would be challenging straight off, then you are living in cloud cookoo land

Click to expand...

None of that should affect spurs to such an extent that we can't beat bottom of the league Newcastle at home. A team who also has new players, have a new manager and cop a hell of alot more flack than us from all and sundry.

The fact of the matter is, the players weren't motivated, the tactics were shit and the manager couldn't make amends during the 90mins. All huge problems that need fixing

guy said:

None of that should affect spurs to such an extent that we can't beat bottom of the league Newcastle at home. A team who also has new players, have a new manager and cop a hell of alot more flack than us from all and sundry.

The fact of the matter is, the players weren't motivated, the tactics were shit and the manager couldn't make amends during the 90mins. All huge problems that need fixing

Click to expand...

last season City did the treble, and 2 of their defeats where against struggling Palace at home and at the time a struggling Newcastle. when you have 17 attempts but only 2 on target, against a team that not only had 10 men behind the ball, most of them where in the area. we also apparently had 38 crosses and failed to get on the end of them. on another day we get 6 + on target and make 3 of them count, or the 2 on target go in.

we should of had 1 pen, even possibly 2 after seeing the Son challenge again

edit: I agree theres probs, and our tactics are all wrong

dagraham said:

If we have to finish there I’d ask the question of why we didn’t replace Dembele when it was clear he was already on the decline, instead waiting until after he was long gone? And why haven’t we planned for Eriksen’s possible departure ( or to simply remedy the fact that he may have played way too much)? It’s not like we haven’t had multiple transfer windows to do so.

Our succession planning has been piss poor, whereas we could have had a far smoother transition instead of sitting on our hands.

Now I’m obviously not privy to all the facts, so for all I know the answer to those questions maybe that Poch was largely driving this strategy.

All I’m saying is despite what I believe are justified concerns about how Poch has been setting us up in games and the nature of the performances for quite a long period of time, I think we should be very reticent of just throwing the best manager we’ve had in years under the bus. At least not without appreciating that there maybe others culpable of blame.

Click to expand...

We were piss poor at pre planning long before Poch came along. Remember when Berba went? Levy has never backed one of his managers when it comes to planning 1-2 seasons down the line in the past, the Dembele situ is just another example.

shelfmonkey said:

We were piss poor at pre planning long before Poch came along. Remember when Berba went? Levy has never backed one of his managers when it comes to planning 1-2 seasons down the line in the past, the Dembele situ is just another example.

Click to expand...

Levy spent £18m the summer before on Darren Bent, who most of us expected to carry on his Charlton form.

Gassin's finest said:

Levy spent £18m the summer before on Darren Bent, who most of us expected to carry on his Charlton form.

Click to expand...

And?