The Spurs Youth Thread – 2016/2017

Matecheck · Dec 26, 2016

bceej said:
Obviously would want a team that plays in a similar fashion to us.

I honestly don't get this obsession with how the team plays. By all accounts, KWP is a defender who is very good going forward but needs to learn how to defend at the senior level. So why does it matter how the team attacks. I was very disappointed when he turned down the Dutch loan because the team liked to defend deep and hoof it upfield. Sounded perfect to me. Get the boy used to defending a lot against men.

WindyCOYS · Dec 26, 2016

Matecheck said:
I honestly don't get this obsession with how the team plays. By all accounts, KWP is a defender who is very good going forward but needs to learn how to defend at the senior level. So why does it matter how the team attacks. I was very disappointed when he turned down the Dutch loan because the team liked to defend deep and hoof it upfield. Sounded perfect to me. Get the boy used to defending a lot against men.

The point being that a team that plays Pulis-ball in that way will be focusing on things in training which may go fundamentally against some of his footballing upbringing and undo years of hard work teaching the right habits. A simplistic example might be that those players are instructed that when you have the ball in the deep right-back area, and are pressed by an opposition player, just try to clear your lines either long up the line or out for a throw around half-way. Whereas Spurs would want him to turn inside, look for a teammate and make himself immediately available for a return pass. Multiply that over dozens of different scenarios and you end up with a different player coming back (in a negative way) to the one that was sent out.

Matecheck · Dec 26, 2016

WindyCOYS said:
The point being that a team that plays Pulis-ball in that way will be focusing on things in training which may go fundamentally against some of his footballing upbringing and undo years of hard work teaching the right habits. A simplistic example might be that those players are instructed that when you have the ball in the deep right-back area, and are pressed by an opposition player, just try to clear your lines either long up the line or out for a throw around half-way. Whereas Spurs would want him to turn inside, look for a teammate and make himself immediately available for a return pass. Multiply that over dozens of different scenarios and you end up with a different player coming back (in a negative way) to the one that was sent out.

My bad, maybe I didn´t put that quite right. I understand the idea behind the obsession. I am questioning the validity of that idea, not in general, but when it comes to KWP. Here´s why

-At the moment all evidence points to him not really being close to first team football for Spurs (see League Cup vs Liverpool). What is holding him back? I am pretty sure it´s his defending at the senior level. Or, at least, his experience of defending at the senior level. Getting that experience now at 19/20 is so much more important for a defender than continuing his education in "the Spurs way". Once he knows how (and is trusted by MP) to stop attackers in our third, his chances of getting on the field will be much greater than if he plays some pretty passes out from the back but is shipping chances to our opponents left right and centre. Even if he is just "clear(ing) your lines either long up the line or out for a throw around half-way". His attacking threat won´t disappear.

- To your point about learning bad habits:The lad is nearly 20 and has been playing the "Spurs way" for at least 3.5 years now. I find it highly contentious that a year of playing and training Pulis-ball will knock that out of him. If it were to be gone irrevocably, then you have done a piss poor job of ingraining it in him in his formative years. Any coach worth his salt would surely be more than confident he could get him back to playing the way he learnt to as a kid.

Again, I would have loved for him to go to Holland and play for a team that´s under siege for most of the game. No better way to learn how to defend.

And just to clarify: I'm not saying that a club that plays a system like ours should be avoided. On the contrary, the optimum loan would be one that does just that and gives him playing time. But at his age playing time and learning how to cope with grown up, experienced attackers should take priority over the style of football the team plays. Isn't even close.

newbie · Dec 26, 2016

Matecheck said:
My bad, maybe I didn´t put that quite right. I understand the idea behind the obsession. I am questioning the validity of that idea, not in general, but when it comes to KWP. Here´s why

-At the moment all evidence points to him not really being close to first team football for Spurs (see League Cup vs Liverpool). What is holding him back? I am pretty sure it´s his defending at the senior level. Or, at least, his experience of defending at the senior level. Getting that experience now at 19/20 is so much more important for a defender than continuing his education in "the Spurs way". Once he knows how (and is trusted by MP) to stop attackers in our third, his chances of getting on the field will be much greater than if he plays some pretty passes out from the back but is shipping chances to our opponents left right and centre. Even if he is just "clear(ing) your lines either long up the line or out for a throw around half-way". His attacking threat won´t disappear.

- To your point about learning bad habits:The lad is nearly 20 and has been playing the "Spurs way" for at least 3.5 years now. I find it highly contentious that a year of playing and training Pulis-ball will knock that out of him. If it were to be gone irrevocably, then you have done a piss poor job of ingraining it in him in his formative years. Any coach worth his salt would surely be more than confident he could get him back to playing the way he learnt to as a kid.

Again, I would have loved for him to go to Holland and play for a team that´s under siege for most of the game. No better way to learn how to defend.

And just to clarify: I'm not saying that a club that plays a system like ours should be avoided. On the contrary, the optimum loan would be one that does just that and gives him playing time. But at his age playing time and learning how to cope with grown up, experienced attackers should take priority over the style of football the team plays. Isn't even close.

I think what's holding back is Kyle Walker and trippier.

The first team need a passer in the midfield two a player who can control the tempo we have one in Harry winks so he gets game time. Edwards is another missing cog in our team so expect they will try to fast track a) to keep him b) because his a player we need and don't have.

Kwp has two very good full backs in his way, plus physical his still develope, also it's a balancing act of two much youth and exp over not enough. Unfortunately he plays in a position w are well stocked and not desperate to promote.

WindyCOYS · Dec 26, 2016

Matecheck said:
My bad, maybe I didn´t put that quite right. I understand the idea behind the obsession. I am questioning the validity of that idea, not in general, but when it comes to KWP. Here´s why

-At the moment all evidence points to him not really being close to first team football for Spurs (see League Cup vs Liverpool). What is holding him back? I am pretty sure it´s his defending at the senior level. Or, at least, his experience of defending at the senior level. Getting that experience now at 19/20 is so much more important for a defender than continuing his education in "the Spurs way". Once he knows how (and is trusted by MP) to stop attackers in our third, his chances of getting on the field will be much greater than if he plays some pretty passes out from the back but is shipping chances to our opponents left right and centre. Even if he is just "clear(ing) your lines either long up the line or out for a throw around half-way". His attacking threat won´t disappear.

- To your point about learning bad habits:The lad is nearly 20 and has been playing the "Spurs way" for at least 3.5 years now. I find it highly contentious that a year of playing and training Pulis-ball will knock that out of him. If it were to be gone irrevocably, then you have done a piss poor job of ingraining it in him in his formative years. Any coach worth his salt would surely be more than confident he could get him back to playing the way he learnt to as a kid.

Again, I would have loved for him to go to Holland and play for a team that´s under siege for most of the game. No better way to learn how to defend.

And just to clarify: I'm not saying that a club that plays a system like ours should be avoided. On the contrary, the optimum loan would be one that does just that and gives him playing time. But at his age playing time and learning how to cope with grown up, experienced attackers should take priority over the style of football the team plays. Isn't even close.

18 months ago I was doing some work as a developer of a very specific database. I'd been doing it for five years and was fairly entrenched in the way it all worked. I changed jobs to a totally different area of my company, and now, that time on, I can remember *some* elements of what I would need to know, but 1. not in any detail, and 2. things have moved on since then, and I would be well behind my teammates.

I imagine that this would loosely translate -- that he could probably go back and pick up a lot of what he was taught, but that some fundamentals will have been forgotten and other learnings would need to be undone. I think it's important to remember that what we see of our players - 90 or 180 minutes a week - is such a small fraction of what they actually do in that time.

I don't think him going to Holland would help a great deal, personally. The tempo is really quite different to the PL.

raggy · Dec 26, 2016

There doesn't seem to be much evidence the Dutch league has helped the swathes of Chelsea players sent there even slightly. In fact their Vitesse partnership seems like a bit of a failure to me. The players sent there just have their progress stagnate or worse.

Loans can be worthwhile but they are pretty overrated in England. In Germany they are used sparingly, it's much more common to keep the best talents in-house where the focus can be on training them so they fit into the club's way of playing. The first thing Klopp wanted to do when he joined Liverpool was recall all the loans.

Matecheck · Dec 26, 2016

raggy said:
Loans can be worthwhile but they are pretty overrated in England. In Germany they are used sparingly, it's much more common to keep the best talents in-house where the focus can be on training them so they fit into the club's way of playing. The first thing Klopp wanted to do when he joined Liverpool was recall all the loans.

Really going off on a tangent here, but I live and work in Germany and follow the Bundesliga closely (remember the name Aymen Barkok, btw, one for the scouting thread). Loans are actually quite popular. Bayern have used them to great effect. Lahm spent two years at Stuttgart, Kroos was at Leverkusen. Kimmich was at RB Leipzig while they were in the second division.

However, here's the kicker: as they all have second teams which play in the third and fourth divisions, playing time at lower levels is easy to come by.

Matecheck · Dec 26, 2016

WindyCOYS said:
18 months ago I was doing some work as a developer of a very specific database. I'd been doing it for five years and was fairly entrenched in the way it all worked. I changed jobs to a totally different area of my company, and now, that time on, I can remember *some* elements of what I would need to know, but 1. not in any detail, and 2. things have moved on since then, and I would be well behind my teammates.

I imagine that this would loosely translate -- that he could probably go back and pick up a lot of what he was taught, but that some fundamentals will have been forgotten and other learnings would need to be undone.

And do you believe that if you went back to your old position, you wouldn't be back up to speed after six months? And that you wouldn't be able to do some parts of the job at all anymore because of stuff you have been doing for the last 18 months? Or that, after six months, you'd still be making the mistake of accidently doing your previous work instead of your current one?

beats1 · Dec 27, 2016

raggy said:
There doesn't seem to be much evidence the Dutch league has helped the swathes of Chelsea players sent there even slightly. In fact their Vitesse partnership seems like a bit of a failure to me. The players sent there just have their progress stagnate or worse.

Loans can be worthwhile but they are pretty overrated in England. In Germany they are used sparingly, it's much more common to keep the best talents in-house where the focus can be on training them so they fit into the club's way of playing. The first thing Klopp wanted to do when he joined Liverpool was recall all the loans.

Its hard to compare us with germany, they dont have as large squads as the premier league teams due to the excess of money around here.

They have B teams but also their lower leagues are weaker than ours

As for Vitesse link, whilst none of them have gone on to do better at chelsea, it has helped a lot of players get better loans in the championship. Quite a few players have gone to the championship and done well afterwards.

Matecheck · Dec 27, 2016

beats1 said:
Its hard to compare us with germany, they dont have as large squads as the premier league teams due to the excess of money around here.

The stats are easy to look up. Premier league has 520 players in 20 teams, the Bundesliga has 525 in 18. That is over 3 more than us per team.

beats1 said:
They have B teams but also their lower leagues are weaker than ours.

What is this based on?

raggy · Dec 27, 2016

Matecheck said:
Really going off on a tangent here, but I live and work in Germany and follow the Bundesliga closely (remember the name Aymen Barkok, btw, one for the scouting thread). Loans are actually quite popular. Bayern have used them to great effect. Lahm spent two years at Stuttgart, Kroos was at Leverkusen. Kimmich was at RB Leipzig while they were in the second division.

However, here's the kicker: as they all have second teams which play in the third and fourth divisions, playing time at lower levels is easy to come by.

The difference is that in Germany loans are used right at the very end of development if a player has been produced they know is good enough but has limited opportunities just due to the situation at the club they will loan them out. You wouldn't have situations where Harry Kane is loaned to Millwall in Germany. Obviously the B teams playing in the tier system helps a lot with that but the point still stands.

When Klopp took over as manager in October 2015 he was shocked to discover that the Reds had 17 players out on loan.

He had been used to the German structure where clubs retain and nurture their own talent – a process made easier by the fact that Borussia Dortmund’s under-23s played in the regionalised third tier of senior German football.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/spor...explains-changed-liverpools-approach-12301482

THFCSPURS19 · Dec 28, 2016

BBC SportVerified account ‏@BBCSport 24m24 minutes ago
Everton expect to complete a £10m deal for 19-year-old Ademola Lookman early in the January transfer window http://bbc.in/2hvUEyg #EFC

archiewasking · Dec 28, 2016

raggy said:
The difference is that in Germany loans are used right at the very end of development if a player has been produced they know is good enough but has limited opportunities just due to the situation at the club they will loan them out. You wouldn't have situations where Harry Kane is loaned to Millwall in Germany. Obviously the B teams playing in the tier system helps a lot with that but the point still stands.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/spor...explains-changed-liverpools-approach-12301482

Millwall is in Germany???!!!

IGSpur · Dec 28, 2016

Our u15s lost 3-1 to Arsenal last week. Madeuke scored for us with an effort from outside the box that flew into top corner

beats1 · Dec 28, 2016

Matecheck said:
The stats are easy to look up. Premier league has 520 players in 20 teams, the Bundesliga has 525 in 18. That is over 3 more than us per team.

What is this based on?

The squads of Bundesliga, are made up of a lot of younger players that play for both b team and back ups for the first team.

In the premier league the squads are much stronger and full of first team players, which arguably backed up by the higher wages

As for why the lower leagues are stronger, I dont think its up for debate, the championship is stronger than some first division teams and this is coming from someone who has been following RB Leipzig for a couple of years(since that is where my family is from)

allpaths · Dec 28, 2016

THFCSPURS19 said:
BBC SportVerified account ‏@BBCSport 24m24 minutes ago
Everton expect to complete a £10m deal for 19-year-old Ademola Lookman early in the January transfer window http://bbc.in/2hvUEyg #EFC

real shame, think he could have been massive for us

Matecheck · Dec 28, 2016

beats1 said:
The squads of Bundesliga, are made up of a lot of younger players that play for both b team and back ups for the first team.

That is simply not true. The site I lifted the statistics from (transfermarkt, the most reliable out there) lists completely different squads for the first teams and the b teams. Of course there will be the odd player here and there who is listed for both, but not enough to make up the three per team less that would be needed for their squads to be as small as ours. But your claim was that ours are larger. Which is simply false. Unlike my discussion with WindyCOYS, this isn't a matter of opinion. It's a fact based on numbers you can count.

Your claim that the championship is stronger than some first division teams is pure speculation based on nothing. I honestly have no idea how you come to this conclusion. One could easily make the exact opposite claim that second division German teams are better than premier league teams seeing as Leipzig are giving Munich a run for their money with the same squad they came second with last year in the second tier. Which premier league team has proven to be close to Munich the last two years? Which championship teams have played Bundesliga teams in competitive ties?

WindyCOYS · Jan 3, 2017

Harrison, Amos and Edwards will be training with the first team ahead of the Villa game; not sure whether any of them will make the matchday squad though.

Spurzinho · Jan 3, 2017

Amos involvement continues to baffle me. He's a completely average U23 player, was a completely average U18 player. I genuinely hope Poch has seen something real in him and he turns out to be a player but for the life of me I can't see it.

Blake Griffin · Jan 3, 2017

i still like amos, aggressive and technically sound, just been unfortunate with injuries and being moved around all over the place. will probably fall short of spurs quality but should make it to a decent level.

Forums

What's new

Matches

Sportsbook

Members

The Spurs Youth Thread – 2016/2017

Free pawn

Well-Known Member

Free pawn

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Free pawn

Free pawn

Well-Known Member

Free pawn

Well-Known Member

The Speaker of the Transfer Rumours Forum

Waiting for silverware..........

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Free pawn

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads