The myth of the 60.000 seater

[foxilator]

Thats really sad to hear... I like to tell everyone we have one of the loudest grounds in England! Somebody give me some hope!!! :-(

sadly it's true. atmosphere has been pretty rubbish this year, with some honorable exceptions of course.

 

[E17yid]

It's 56k I think?

Yes we do, for the same reasons we need CL. Money.

 

[Ironskullll]

Matchday culture has changed so much - I'm sure this is a big factor. I used to just roll up in the old days when the capacity was 55,000 and there was likely to be 45,000 there. I don't even know how to get a ticket now - I'd like to see a handful of games per season but what with so many season ticket holders, the matchday club, points and so forth the only tickets I've managed to get in recent years have been incredibly expensive ones in the west stand. So I don't bother. The arithmetic associated with filling a 60k stadium might involve a few tricky factors such as the impact of the higher capacity on season ticket sales but in my opinion it can only be a good thing. A 60k stadium would sell out from time to time; on other occasions there would be 45k to 50k there, and on others maybe only 25k, but I'm pretty sure there would be a far greater pool of people actually watching the team throughout the season. During halcyon times it would probably sell out close to 100%. There would be more "part time" supporters, if you like, who because of cost, travel, work and so on can only attend a smaller number of matches per season. More once in a while pals, more kids, more newbies. That type of supporter is almost totally disenfranchised at the moment and yet it's that sort of excited, naive, enthusiastic fan for whom matchday is a very special day out that always tops up the atmosphere when compared with the old hands, average age far greater than it ever used to be, the cynical, "seen it all before" cadre who are in too large a proportion if my limited recent experience is anything to go by.

 

[teok]

If we regularly compete in the champions league I think it's perfectly possible.

 

[Lufti]

Thats really sad to hear... I like to tell everyone we have one of the loudest grounds in England! Somebody give me some hope!!! :-(

We've got great fans don't get me wrong, we can be heard at all away games but sadly, nowa days, like with many other clubs, as we're become more successful our home ground has become less and less of a fortress. I think it's down to getting more glory hunters in the ground or new fans anyway, who simply expect and demand success, and haven't been with Spurs through the hard times to truly appreciate what we have now.. I think the same could be said with Arsenal to the point where now, the Emirates has literally no atmosphere - (though of course they can't really be heard at away games either )

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

It's all about FFP. When Levy eventually finds a bidder willing to build it for £500, a can of Tizer and a half sucked gobstopper, he won't be able to afford to price everyone out of it and having it sit there half empty. We build it, revenue goes up and so does what we can spend on players/wages. More blatant than a lepers minge.

 

[marion52]

All depends on pricing. If he makes more areas available for cheaper junior tickets that will help. We need to encourage future generations.
I agree with op though I think we may have trouble selling out all matches

 

[ItsBoris]

I'm just worried about the stadium actually getting built. Needs to happen soon.

 

[spud]

Players have to be aware of this as they play just as big a part in creating atmosphere as the fans themselves, we are not totally to blame for the lack of atmosphere.

I can't agree with this. The players can help to get the crowd going by playing fast, exciting football, but the fans are always responsible for the atmosphere. It is our job as fans to make the place rock and galvanise the team. I repeat: it is our job as fans to make the place rock and galvanise the team.

You're not going to the theatre. You're going to support your team.

 

[Beni]

Yes, we need a 60,000 seater for financial reasons. Pointless to the team though, if only 1,000 out of the capacity only sing though, like last night.

 

[Ironskullll]

Oh for the days of yore!

18th Sept 1948 Division 2 - Spurs 3 Bury 1 att: 60,442

Final place in Div 2: 5th (and almost 30 years since winning any trophy)

 

[am_yisrael_chai]

Yes, we need a 60,000 seater for financial reasons. Pointless to the team though, if only 1,000 out of the capacity only sing though, like last night.

This actually isn't correct. We need a new stadium with about 10,000 corporate seats and 200+ boxes, what the number of regular seats are doesn't matter for stadium economics. In modern stadiums between 65-75% of total revenues come from the "Club Wembley" layer.

As an aside this is a fact people have missed about the Spammers and the Olympic Stadium, capacity doesn't matter, the stadium was built without a corporate layer and that can't be created without knocking it down, hence our proposal. Of course your average Spammer is too stupid to understand and the porn kings are looking at an entirely different proposition which is selling / developing Upton Park and getting a new ground for free.

 

[leffe186]

Matchday culture has changed so much - I'm sure this is a big factor. I used to just roll up in the old days when the capacity was 55,000 and there was likely to be 45,000 there. I don't even know how to get a ticket now - I'd like to see a handful of games per season but what with so many season ticket holders, the matchday club, points and so forth the only tickets I've managed to get in recent years have been incredibly expensive ones in the west stand. So I don't bother. The arithmetic associated with filling a 60k stadium might involve a few tricky factors such as the impact of the higher capacity on season ticket sales but in my opinion it can only be a good thing. A 60k stadium would sell out from time to time; on other occasions there would be 45k to 50k there, and on others maybe only 25k, but I'm pretty sure there would be a far greater pool of people actually watching the team throughout the season. During halcyon times it would probably sell out close to 100%. There would be more "part time" supporters, if you like, who because of cost, travel, work and so on can only attend a smaller number of matches per season. More once in a while pals, more kids, more newbies. That type of supporter is almost totally disenfranchised at the moment and yet it's that sort of excited, naive, enthusiastic fan for whom matchday is a very special day out that always tops up the atmosphere when compared with the old hands, average age far greater than it ever used to be, the cynical, "seen it all before" cadre who are in too large a proportion if my limited recent experience is anything to go by.

Absolutely. You don't even have to go back to the 55K years to see those supporters either, you could roll up to games for much of the 80s too. A large number of those fans have been disenfranchised, but Arsenal managed to pick up a lot of them by default with their new stadium. One problem we will have in attracting them is the added competition from West Ham - a huge stadium with terrific transport links and infrastructure. We need to make sure we're both more attractive on the pitch (certainly ahead of them in that respect) and also a more attractive match day experience. Hopefully the distance from the pitch at the Olympic Stadium will turn casual fans off, but fans at our games will be crucial in creating the kind of atmosphere that entranced me as a kid. The much-vaunted Kop end needs to work.

 

[Beni]

This actually isn't correct. We need a new stadium with about 10,000 corporate seats and 200+ boxes, what the number of regular seats are doesn't matter for stadium economics. In modern stadiums between 65-75% of total revenues come from the "Club Wembley" layer.

As an aside this is a fact people have missed about the Spammers and the Olympic Stadium, capacity doesn't matter, the stadium was built without a corporate layer and that can't be created without knocking it down, hence our proposal. Of course your average Spammer is too stupid to understand and the porn kings are looking at an entirely different proposition which is selling / developing Upton Park and getting a new ground for free.

I don't understand what you're saying, are you saying that a bigger stadium doesn't generate more income for us?

 

[DiscoD1882]

I can't agree with this. The players can help to get the crowd going by playing fast, exciting football, but the fans are always responsible for the atmosphere. It is our job as fans to make the place rock and galvanise the team. I repeat: it is our job as fans to make the place rock and galvanise the team.

You're not going to the theatre. You're going to support your team.

You go to football to be entertained. And you pay alot of money for the priviledge. Im not saying for one second we should be stoney silent if the team arent playing well and I agree some of the responsibilty is with the fans to create the cauldron. But As I said the players generate interest by playing exciting football. Some have looked less then interested this year and it creates animosity around the ground. It is not just as easy as saying. Ok, you are at the game cheer regardless. It just doesnt work like that, there is an article about today saying that manure want to try and better the atmosphere at old trafford as it is lacking. I mean if they cant generate atmosphere in a 75000 seater stadium. with all the success and world class players they have then what hope do any of us have?? The other factors are the lack of new fans eager to support the team. Players getting paid shitloads of cash and strolling through games. There isnt so much of a connection with players and clubs like there used to be. Ledley was the last bastion of this at our club where players are grown from within and create a local lad done good feeling. these players will always be supported. Adeybeyor and Gallas for example, are not ever going to be revered or supported as well as he was. Reason. they are ex gooners and they play like mercenaries. When was the last time you heard the Adebeyor chant? I cant remeber hearing it once this year? And Gallas hasnt even got a chant. The players ARE responsible for atmosphere. As much as the fans.

 

[absolute bobbins]

The atmosphere last night was an utter disgrace, a 60,000 seater stadium could exacerbate the situation if we fail to learn from the mistakes of our friends in Islington!
Firstly there should be a real term DECREASE in season ticket prices throughout the new ground, there will be a lot of people on the waiting list who will have been priced out of the market, especially Tottenham residents who should provide a high percentage of our support!
Match day tickets shouldn't be the preserve of the wealthy middle aged chap like my Dad, we need to get teenagers and twenty something guys and girls through the doors every match, we shouldn't eject people for standing and you know what, even though it was annoying as F**K at times we will need that bloody drum back to marshall the support!
Whilst the redevelopment of WHL is primarily about revenue generation it is also the perfect opportunity to take a lead and reconnect with the fans, get the next generation of fans through the door and get the Lane rocking again!

 

[am_yisrael_chai]

I don't understand what you're saying, are you saying that a bigger stadium doesn't generate more income for us?

It will but total capacity isn't the key, the key to more revenue are the premium seats. So a 60,000 stadium with regular seats will earn far less than a 40,000 seat stadium with a 10,000 premium layer with 200 boxes. Of course if you have the premium layer then increasing overall size from 40,000 to 60,000 helps but not in a transformational way. This is why the goons make more from the 60,000 Emirates than Manure do from the 75,000 OT. Sadly the paradox is that stadium economics suggest a design that is soulless like Emirates and Wembley. Levy's attempt to have the corporate riches and the atmosphere via the Kop end is innovative and to be applauded. Hope that makes sense.

 

[Beni]

It will but total capacity isn't the key, the key to more revenue are the premium seats. So a 60,000 stadium with regular seats will earn far less than a 40,000 seat stadium with a 10,000 premium layer with 200 boxes. Of course if you have the premium layer then increasing overall size from 40,000 to 60,000 helps but not in a transformational way. This is why the goons make more from the 60,000 Emirates than Manure do from the 75,000 OT. Sadly the paradox is that stadium economics suggest a design that is soulless like Emirates and Wembley. Levy's attempt to have the corporate riches and the atmosphere via the Kop end is innovative and to be applauded. Hope that makes sense.

Yeah, it does thanks

 

[leffe186]

You go to football to be entertained. And you pay alot of money for the priviledge. Im not saying for one second we should be stoney silent if the team arent playing well and I agree some of the responsibilty is with the fans to create the cauldron. But As I said the players generate interest by playing exciting football. Some have looked less then interested this year and it creates animosity around the ground. It is not just as easy as saying. Ok, you are at the game cheer regardless. It just doesnt work like that, there is an article about today saying that manure want to try and better the atmosphere at old trafford as it is lacking. I mean if they cant generate atmosphere in a 75000 seater stadium. with all the success and world class players they have then what hope do any of us have?? The other factors are the lack of new fans eager to support the team. Players getting paid shitloads of cash and strolling through games. There isnt so much of a connection with players and clubs like there used to be. Ledley was the last bastion of this at our club where players are grown from within and create a local lad done good feeling. these players will always be supported. Adeybeyor and Gallas for example, are not ever going to be revered or supported as well as he was. Reason. they are ex gooners and they play like mercenaries. When was the last time you heard the Adebeyor chant? I cant remeber hearing it once this year? And Gallas hasnt even got a chant. The players ARE responsible for atmosphere. As much as the fans.

I fundamentally disagree. As you say, Manchester United struggle to generate atmosphere at home with all their success and world-class players. How can you then argue that what goes on on the pitch is so crucial?

Of course it helps if the play is exciting, there are homegrown players etc etc, but we have GOT to take responsibility as fans. Stoke's play is horrible, and their players generally bought-in, yet their crowd recognized that there was value in creating a great atmosphere. That's flagging a bit now because the football has been so dull, and you can see the impact in their results. The Victoria (or whatever it's called now) is no longer such a fortress.

We need to be creative, and look at initiatives like the 1882 stuff and how we can take that to first team games. Ideally i'd like to see some collaboration with the club on this, with a view to the new stadium. Fuck it, maybe we have to try things like singing zones - I mean, it doesn't feel right to me (a fan since the 70s) but with all-seater stadia and season tickets everywhere we HAVE to try everything we can to generate atmosphere. We can just sit there and whine about the team etc, or see that we have an opportunity to differentiate ourselves from the casual tourists (Arsenal's home crowd), the soulless nouveau riche (Chelsea), and the West Ham fans who will hopefully be watching the game in a half-empty stadium. Through binoculars.

 

[spud]

You go to football to be entertained.....

Therein lies the problem.

If somebody goes for that reason then he is a spectator who follows Spurs, who begrudges the price of the ticket and feels that it gives him the 'right' to be entertained. I would advise that person to spend his money going to some event where his entertainment is guaranteed, not to waste it at a football match. If he's a season ticket holder, he should re-think where to spend his 'entertainment' budget and not renew it; somebody on the waiting list will value it more. He can always get a Sky subscription.

A fan goes because he can go. A fan goes because he wants and/or needs to be there when Spurs play and he'll sing his lungs out to support the team. A fan has the attitude of the 1882 movement. He 'loves the shirt' and gives his all for it every time he goes to a match.