Poll: Time for Poch or Time up for Poch? How Much More Time Should He Get?

[THFCSPURS19]

Love how some people think Pochettino had control over the transfers last summer.

 

[StartingPrice]

Over the last 9 years we have pretty much finished fourth or fifth. everyone generally accepts that allowing the financial strength of City and Chavs and the comparative financial strengths and historical strength of United and to a lesser degree scum we have done well to achieve that and yet if we are to believe the myth we have done all this despite being mentally weak. Quite amazing really and it makes you wonder how much extra quality we have had than City, United, Chavs and Scum that our lack of mental strength has meant they have finished above us, also makes you wonder about all those teams below us and if we are lacking mental strength how they stack up

It's an interesting angle. I, myself, frequently refer to to the fact that are sixth wealthiest club in EPL, yet for much of the last decade have finished 5th/4th.

I would have to say that, in part, the first part of your assumption, that we have been punching above our weight by finishing higher than sixth while being sixth wealthiest club in EPL, does not automatically lead to the second part of your assumption, that this punching above weight means it is impossible for us to have displayed lack of mental strength. To take one example: many, including myself, believe (and felt at the time) that when we were four points (I think) off the top, well into the second half of the season, with several technically winnable games coming up, and about 13 points clear of the Goons, that we could have at least really tried to keep on the leaders tails to see what happened, and third was ours to throw away. We all know what happened! Rather than going for it, we started making mealy-mouthed statements about consolidating a place in top four, and not being in a title race, started looking down instead of up, and collapsed. Even after finishing below us four seasons running, when Liverpool found themselves in the same position they had the cajonas (among other things) to keep their eyes on the prize. They might not quite have made it, but they finished second. Many Spurs fans, and, again, I am one, felt that the team that included Modric, AVB, Bale and Ledders was a pretty f******g good team and fifth from that position was pretty much underachieving - no matter what a financial comparison says.

As I said after the Stoke game (our last game - woefully lost), we were three points behind the Goons who had a really tricky away game, they would go on to lose, and having just watched Liverpool fall to a poor home defeat. How much motivation did these players need, that they couldn't give themselves under these circumstances. They should have been all about Stoke like angry wasps - even if Poch had taken the week off - they are professional footballers close to the top end of the sport. Tactics shouldn't have come into it. We should have been at them from the word go. Instead we floundered about like hungover giraffes! Why?

You also ignore anything from before the last decade - especially my reference to the Swindon game 1993/94 season (I think).

This morning I read an article (no conclusive evidence in itself, I know) which contained within its body a claim that Poch was here to do this, that and the other and to change the mentality. I have recently read a few posts against referring to this mentality issue. So, sorry but I would have to turn the question around to you: Why do you believe that everyone from ex player pundits (Gary Neville) and ex players who grew up supporting us (Roy Keane), to opposition managers (who most frequently claim, after getting a result against us, that they told there players that if they got in about us we were vulnerable), to journos, to the fans themselves (our own and others), constantly refer to there being an issue with our mentality? Why do you think it is that even in the midst of our best spell in the last 10 years that you would find threads and posts referring to our lack of mental strength. Why do you believe this is related through time to the nineties and seventies by Spurs fans? Why is it that two of the most common terms you will hear relating to this club are threw snatched from the jaws of victory and Spurs always let you down? Why do you think we have a reputation for being Big Time Charlies, for being fancy Dans, for being soft, for not being up for the fight?

For the record, I have felt for a long time that Mr Whinger was lucky in inheriting a team who knew how to defend, and as those players and their influence have faded so has their ability to cope with the more physical teams in the EPL. Whinger is good at picking offensive players, but I don't he fully understands, or accepts, what is required to defend at the highest levels of the EPL. They have a soft centre - but even so, they have shown more mental strength from us, like when they got results from their last eight games (even if they benefited from several dodgy officiating decisions from the match day officials - we look like all officials are in league against us, and just accept it). Teams below us, all teams below us (outside the top tier finishing below us occasionally), have considerably less financial clout than us, so it need not say anything about them to finish below us.

 

[Barry Mead]

It's an interesting angle. I, myself, frequently refer to to the fact that are sixth wealthiest club in EPL, yet for much of the last decade have finished 5th/4th.

I would have to say that, in part, the first part of your assumption, that we have been punching above our weight by finishing higher than sixth while being sixth wealthiest club in EPL, does not automatically lead to the second part of your assumption, that this punching above weight means it is impossible for us to have displayed lack of mental strength. To take one example: many, including myself, believe (and felt at the time) that when we were four points (I think) off the top, well into the second half of the season, with several technically winnable games coming up, and about 13 points clear of the Goons, that we could have at least really tried to keep on the leaders tails to see what happened, and third was ours to throw away. We all know what happened! Rather than going for it, we started making mealy-mouthed statements about consolidating a place in top four, and not being in a title race, started looking down instead of up, and collapsed. Even after finishing below us four seasons running, when Liverpool found themselves in the same position they had the cajonas (among other things) to keep their eyes on the prize. They might not quite have made it, but they finished second. Many Spurs fans, and, again, I am one, felt that the team that included Modric, AVB, Bale and Ledders was a pretty f******g good team and fifth from that position was pretty much underachieving - no matter what a financial comparison says.

As I said after the Stoke game (our last game - woefully lost), we were three points behind the Goons who had a really tricky away game, they would go on to lose, and having just watched Liverpool fall to a poor home defeat. How much motivation did these players need, that they couldn't give themselves under these circumstances. They should have been all about Stoke like angry wasps - even if Poch had taken the week off - they are professional footballers close to the top end of the sport. Tactics shouldn't have come into it. We should have been at them from the word go. Instead we floundered about like hungover giraffes! Why?

You also ignore anything from before the last decade - especially my reference to the Swindon game 1993/94 season (I think).

This morning I read an article (no conclusive evidence in itself, I know) which contained within its body a claim that Poch was here to do this, that and the other and to change the mentality. I have recently read a few posts against referring to this mentality issue. So, sorry but I would have to turn the question around to you: Why do you believe that everyone from ex player pundits (Gary Neville) and ex players who grew up supporting us (Roy Keane), to opposition managers (who most frequently claim, after getting a result against us, that they told there players that if they got in about us we were vulnerable), to journos, to the fans themselves (our own and others), constantly refer to there being an issue with our mentality? Why do you think it is that even in the midst of our best spell in the last 10 years that you would find threads and posts referring to our lack of mental strength. Why do you believe this is related through time to the nineties and seventies by Spurs fans? Why is it that two of the most common terms you will hear relating to this club are threw snatched from the jaws of victory and Spurs always let you down? Why do you think we have a reputation for being Big Time Charlies, for being fancy Dans, for being soft, for not being up for the fight?

For the record, I have felt for a long time that Mr Whinger was lucky in inheriting a team who knew how to defend, and as those players and their influence have faded so has their ability to cope with the more physical teams in the EPL. Whinger is good at picking offensive players, but I don't he fully understands, or accepts, what is required to defend at the highest levels of the EPL. They have a soft centre - but even so, they have shown more mental strength from us, like when they got results from their last eight games (even if they benefited from several dodgy officiating decisions from the match day officials - we look like all officials are in league against us, and just accept it). Teams below us, all teams below us (outside the top tier finishing below us occasionally), have considerably less financial clout than us, so it need not say anything about them to finish below us.

You can always look at seasons and looking back look at stages and say oh look we were mentally weak there and it affected us, but you can look at the other teams that people might suggest as mentally stronger and say the same, Arsenal the other year starting off the season looking like they were going to walk away with the title, City the season after they won the title dropping off so badly, Liverpool you claim had the cajones but they really fell apart at a critical stage in the season and recent comments about the dressing room suggests they took a huge kick in confidence, Chavs under AVB, people could say they were mentally weak or could blame it on mental strength but invariably there is a mixture of differing reasons.

We seem to be happy to accept that strikers even great ones can hit a barren spell and the general consensus tends to be he's low on confidence not lacking mental strength, so generally where does being low on confidence become lacking mental strength. There's a connection maybe but doesn't it take mental strength to get over a period of low confidence? If you accept that you need mental strength to pull yourself out of a bad spell when confidence is low is it lack of mental strength that got you into it, or lack of confidence, or other factors?

We have had a pretty good run over 9 years, the main negatives seem to have come when we have had new managers trying to get players to fit a certain style of play. When we have had managers that have let the players strengths and weaknesses shape the tactics we have generally done well

Other teams have done better and normally it has been two reasons, money or win mentality. With City and Chavs they were able to go out and buy top quality, if one or two didn't work out they went and bought more. That kind of spending power whilst not guaranteeing success certainly has to give a better chance of it. Then you have win mentality, the more you win the more confident you get and it's a powerful boost. Chavs and City have been gaining it as their money has given them success, United in particular have thrived on it. There is no doubt in my mind that Fergie has been the genius, he has always looked beyond a players skills and at their strength of character, their desire and has fostered that in his teams and that has been strengthened by winning which in turn fosters a certain invincibility. How many times have United shown they can fight back in games. We were what 3 goals up and wiping the floor with them and they came out second half and won 5-3 if my memory serves them right, but they have done it on enough occasions. That is belief as opposed to mental strength, you can be mentally strong but only by consistent success do you get that extra belief that you can win games seemingly beyond you, or haul back points in a title race that looked hopeless. Scum had that too for a time but yes Wenger was lucky in inheriting the best defence in the league at the time and he was able to find some creative players to shape a successful side, but I do think his ability to find quality defenders is questionable, he can find some great creative players and has unearthed some excellent strikers but his success in finding quality defenders as opposed to inheriting them is patchy at best. So now that win mentality is wearing thin they haven't had much success in recent years to give it an infusion, United spent too long running on the fumes of a win mentality and the character of some rather than topping up in certain areas and now it's seeping away from them

Meanwhile we have been bobbling around 4th and 5th spot despite clubs with more money and more win mentality. We aren't the greatest, we can certainly boost the depth of character and desire in the team and it was something we should have been doing this summer when we recruited players but rather than boost it we sold arguably our two strongest characters in Dawson and Sandro,

For all that though I really look at what we have done and allowing that we have never had a truly well balanced team, we have had quality for sure, but always had a few weak areas that we never really address, allowing that we have had a constant change of players and managers, allowing that we are one of the teams that has had to regularly compete in Europe in recent years where many others have not had that distraction (like Liverpool last year you seem to praise) I really don't think our mental strength is poor at all-I think it could be stronger for sure, but I think the level of criticism is way over the top

As for Gary Neville going on about Spurs, how many players at Spurs now that he faced? The team has hardly any players with more than a couple of years at the club, our turn around over the last decade has been massive. So what players are mentally weak-all of them? Nope not for me especially as some have shown huge character we just lost Dawson and Sandro players with as much drive and desire as any in the PL. We have had mentally strong players over the years and the idea that a club as such has a mentality issue is just simply wrong.

If we have any mental strength issue as a club it's that our recruitment policy doesn't have extra tick boxes that say strong character, drive, desire, win mentality, leadership. Now I'm not suggesting that every player has to have a tick in all those boxes, in a balanced team a few players is enough to keep heads up as they lead by example.

As for this idea that Poch can in some way install mental strength into the team is bullshit. You find players that have it, you don't develop it, you can't make players mentally strong, you can make players more confident, you can put players around them that have the drive and character and leadership to get players lacking it simply playing their game rather than having their heads drop, but mental strength is something you have or you don't. Poch should have kept Daws and Sandro and added a couple of quality players with strong character if he wanted to address it, but he did the opposite. What is he planning now maybe hypnotise them? Maybe he needs Ade's mum

As for teams with less financial clout I think I saw a chart showing we are 19th in the PL net spend chart over the last five years so if we have greater financial clout we haven't been using it so for me that's a false argument in terms of them finishing below us, I actually think is say a lot rather than not anything

 

[E17yid]

At the end of the day, if we lose to Hull, Everton, Chelsea and one of Leicester, Palace or Burnley then most fans will want him out by Xmas (baring in mind it's not just the results that have been shit, the performances have been equally poor)

At the moment there are no signs that he's doing much right, IMO. Team selections are poor, the players don't seem to buy into him (massive problem, especially when you're not winning) terrible subs, no plan B, poor signings in the transfer window (which Poch has to take some flak for, Fazio, Davies? FFS)

Having said that (and as SS57 has said) if we beat Hull, Draw against Everton then beat Palace, Burnley and Leicester then for me he would have earned the right to keep his job until the end of the year. But even then I would want things to be assessed at the end of the season (how our performances have been doing)

Hopefully Poch can show us something in the next month, if it carries on like this then it's goodnight Charlie for me.

Finishing anywhere outside the top 8 is really bad, outside the top 10 then he should go as well. Unacceptable IMO, considering where we've been in the last few years and considering what AVB and Tim managed to get out of this group of players