Zeki Çelik

[C0YS]

The worry with Atal is his previous injury was quite a severe one.

Atal definitely has the potential to flatter to deceive. He isn't a good crosser of the ball, he normally plays as a winger now with an eye for goal, his productivity from fullback is low for someone who is considered an attacking fullback. He isn't known for his defensive skills which are more likely to be exposed in the PL.

Atal is talented, but so was Michel Bastos, and Aly Cissokho. Both players who nominally played fullback but maybe were more effective as wingers, both players who looked good in Ligue 1, both liked by a lot of armchair scouts on here and both no way near good enough to play for us even then.

Not saying he wouldn't be a good signing, but I'm sceptical.

 

[ComfortablyNumb]

i always think the same of Ziege - when fit - but again maybe nostalgia on the brain

Lennon would’ve made any RB look good. Best defensive winger around.

Ziege on the left with Davies on the right was the best balance we’ve ever had, in that respect. Still won fuck all, mind. That dead leg that Ziege got, though! Horrible.

 

[doctor stefan Freud]

Lennon would’ve made any RB look good. Best defensive winger around.

Ziege on the left with Davies on the right was the best balance we’ve ever had, in that respect. Still won fuck all, mind. That dead leg that Ziege got, though! Horrible.

God I miss Lennon. All my memories as a young father are bound into cheering on Lennon as he tore down the flanks, limp flippered, head down, shaved eyebrow a blur. My toddler kids in the background pissing themselves at Dad’s stupid goldfish faces

 

[BringBack_leGin]

Absolutely adored Lennon, and he’s one player I think Pochettino should given a chance to. His fearlessness when he first broke through was like nothing I’d seen at Spurs.

 

[SecretLemonadeDrinker]

Loved Aaron. But we shouldn't forget that, by the end of his time with us, he was no longer the player he had once been. I think it was AVB who broke him by trying to convert him to an inverted winger. Thereafter, he rarely pinned his ears back and took his man on on the outside as he had once routinely done to great effect. Instead, he would cut inside, or back, and usually make a safe pass. It was so frustrating, especially knowing what he was really capable of.

Anyway, Zeki Celik....

 

[C0YS]

Absolutely adored Lennon, and he’s one player I think Pochettino should given a chance to. His fearlessness when he first broke through was like nothing I’d seen at Spurs.

He was part of that group of players who got cut out. What was it Copoue, Kaboul (Club captain for like a month!), Adebayor and Lennon right?

He took part in the first few games, playing much closer to the striker which was always a position I felt Lennon could really play well. I remember Jol using him there quite often, and his close control and ability to turn into space was very effective. He was ok in those games, though nothing exceptional, he looked very sharp in preseason though.

I don't want to speculate too wildly, and I know a former youth coach at Leeds became a PE teacher in my school (slightly dodgy PE teacher thinking back, but that's another story) and he always said he never saw a player work as hard Lennon in training and always thought he was destined for the very top. But, I think his heart wasn't in it anymore. For me that's the most rational explanation. We know now that he had serious issues with his mental health and he said that he was suffering even 4 or 5 years before his breakdown, which would place the start of his problems at 2013, probably under AVB and Poch demands absolute commitment so that might have been an issue.

That's my take, but we will never really know what caused his isolation.

 

[C0YS]

Loved Aaron. But we shouldn't forget that, by the end of his time with us, he was no longer the player he had once been. I think it was AVB who broke him by trying to convert him to an inverted winger. Thereafter, he rarely pinned his ears back and took his man on on the outside as he had once routinely done to great effect. Instead, he would cut inside, or back, and usually make a safe pass. It was so frustrating, especially knowing what he was really capable of.

Anyway, Zeki Celik....

Firstly he has been used on the left well before AVB, infact in 2006/2007 he played on the left and as a n10 just as much as on the right that season. (steed was injured for a lot of that time, and believe it or not Ghaly had a good run of form playing off the right).

His game changed, being kicked around does that, and he had several long term injuries, that really did take a toll on him. His prime was 08/09 - 09/10 that season and a half he was unplayable at points. But he got a bad injury in the middle of that season and never really fully recovered.

Having Bale on the left didn't help either. Bale becomes the focus and the main attacking outlet. So he would play a more sacrificial role, often this means to make the right decisions for the team and play percentages and not go on runs every time. Not every player can go full throttle and take people on, and he really developed more into a defensive winger and a team player after the emergence of Bale. Even his great game against Milan came in part because he was the focus of penetrative attacks, as Bale was injured. So its not that simple.

Moura has similarities to Lennon, under Jose, and Celik looks like the kind of more defensively minded technical fullback, like Corluka who could benefit from lucas' pace and energy in front of him.

Last point on Lennon, I really hope he gets a nice big contract this summer and can be seen a little bit more often this year. Leeds maybe?

 

[midoNdefoe]

Is Aurier really? He is a good athlete but he can’t defend, cross or retain concentration. Not exactly traits I’m looking for in a right back tbh. I’m still disappointed we didn’t play Walker-Peters over him if I’m honest

Im guessing you could have said the same for Walker, Trippier and Walker-Peters.

 

[C0YS]

Im guessing you could have said the same for Walker, Trippier and Walker-Peters.

There's a considerable difference. Walker, for starters, was actually pretty darn good defensively considering what he offers offensively. Yes he was only good because of his recovery speed bailing him out of trouble, but that's a massive asset to have.

A confidence shot Trippier was bad for sure and KWP wasn't considered good enough, Aurier has his strengths. But his positioning and focus are not one of them, he can be a liability in that part of the game. I am happy to keep him, but we do need someone else who is more reliable.

Aurier's defensive weaknesses are not something you can measure statistically, because they come out of what he is not doing, not what he is doing, if that makes sense. He wins a lot of tackles, but that's because his instinct is to be aggressive. But if you go out for a tackle you leave space in behind. The whole point of doing the lopsided back three was in part to allow Aurier to play his game without worrying too much about the space in behind. Similarly Sissoko played a lot of the time in that right side covering for Aurier. But defensively, even in the end, he leaves a lot to be desired and is clearly our weak link.

Now Aurier has talents, and lots of them. But, if you want to play a disciplined defensive game, having another option who is better at different parts of the game would be a great addition.

It's not about finding someone who is better than Aurier, it's about finding players with different strengths that allow us to play in a different style, and with greater midfield flexibility.

For example, having a steady eddy there would allow us to maybe play with Ndombele, whose lack of tactical defensive discipline could cost us less. Or we could focus on allowing our wide players to stay wider, possibly helping us utilise that space on the counter and creating more space in the middle of the pitch without the vulnerabilities that come from pushing the fullbacks high up the pitch.

I find that more and more I think about a team in a holistic way, rather than thinking about merits of each player in an individual way. I think Aurier has talents, but I don't think our Fullbacks will have as much as a role in how we develop attacks as in the past and I think we can allow the midfield to be better at linking play together if we have fullbacks which are technically good and tactically disciplined.

 

[midoNdefoe]

There's a considerable difference. Walker, for starters, was actually pretty darn good defensively considering what he offers offensively. Yes he was only good because of his recovery speed bailing him out of trouble, but that's a massive asset to have.

A confidence shot Trippier was bad for sure and KWP wasn't considered good enough, Aurier has his strengths. But his positioning and focus are not one of them, he can be a liability in that part of the game. I am happy to keep him, but we do need someone else who is more reliable.

Aurier's defensive weaknesses are not something you can measure statistically, because they come out of what he is not doing, not what he is doing, if that makes sense. He wins a lot of tackles, but that's because his instinct is to be aggressive. But if you go out for a tackle you leave space in behind. The whole point of doing the lopsided back three was in part to allow Aurier to play his game without worrying too much about the space in behind. Similarly Sissoko played a lot of the time in that right side covering for Aurier. But defensively, even in the end, he leaves a lot to be desired and is clearly our weak link.

Now Aurier has talents, and lots of them. But, if you want to play a disciplined defensive game, having another option who is better at different parts of the game would be a great addition.

It's not about finding someone who is better than Aurier, it's about finding players with different strengths that allow us to play in a different style, and with greater midfield flexibility.

For example, having a steady eddy there would allow us to maybe play with Ndombele, whose lack of tactical defensive discipline could cost us less. Or we could focus on allowing our wide players to stay wider, possibly helping us utilise that space on the counter and creating more space in the middle of the pitch without the vulnerabilities that come from pushing the fullbacks high up the pitch.

I’m not really in disagreement with you. My point was that the post I quoted could easily have been a carbon-copy of a post in the Walker or Trippier thread when we were assuming they were not good enough either...

 

[C0YS]

I’m not really in disagreement with you. My point was that the post I quoted could easily have been a carbon-copy of a post in the Walker or Trippier thread when we were assuming they were not good enough either...

Yeh, people here really have a narrow minded view on our own players, and exactly those are two players who have had their boo boys but as soon as they have left the club have become appreciated on a level that they never were here.

 

[DiVaio]

Celik compared to Aurier

 

[HildoSpur]

Yeh, people here really have a narrow minded view on our own players, and exactly those are two players who have had their boo boys but as soon as they have left the club have become appreciated on a level that they never were here.

I still think Trippier was horrendous.

 

[Mattspurs1982]

Celik compared to Aurier View attachment 71452

interesting that he seems strong when going forward as opposed to not having the ball. Tackles and aerial duels not great - guess it depends what Jose wants - full backs bombing forward or sitting back and being solid defenders (like Davies)

 

[midoNdefoe]

Celik compared to Aurier View attachment 71452

Surely it would be more relevant to compare Celik’s french league stats to Aurier’s final season stats in the french league?

 

[C0YS]

I still think Trippier was horrendous.

His final season here was pretty awful, and he has actually had the guts to admit that in public. Credit to him. But one bad season does not make a bad player.

In Atletico he has been a big hit, and defensively sound as well. Poch didn't help, as he left fullbacks very exposed in his system. He would argue that, yes, they were exposed but for a overall benefit to the team.

 

[Wig]

Celik compared to Aurier View attachment 71452

I think the main thing these graphics highlight, is how much better the league averages are in the PL compared to the French league. One example is Serge gets a 6.6 for interceptions, blocks & clearances and appears to be well behind league average, whereas Celik has 4.7 (well behind Serge) yet is shown to be above league average.

 

[C0YS]

I think the main thing these graphics highlight, is how much better the league averages are in the PL compared to the French league. One example is Serge gets a 6.6 for interceptions, blocks & clearances and appears to be well behind league average, whereas Celik has 4.7 (well behind Serge) yet is shown to be above league average.

Yeh, but you have to take that into account, because the leagues are stylistically different and a straight comparison will give you very misleading information.

But, even these kind of comparisons are misleading because stats are so contextualised within individual team styles and the situations they are likely to face. Also, there is no stat for positional play, some stats can give an indication of it, but never a very clear or complete one. Positioning is, also, like the most important thing defensively.

 

[GetSpurredOn]

Just being slightly picky, but those stats are compared against different averages. Celik is above average the in their French league only, whereas Aurier is being judged against average for multiple leagues. It’s not quite an even comparison. Not that I’m defending Aurier, I think he’s a liability more often than not, just saying they should be judged evenly.

 

[C0YS]

Just being slightly picky, but those stats are compared against different averages. Celik is above average the in their French league only, whereas Aurier is being judged against average for multiple leagues. It’s not quite an even comparison. Not that I’m defending Aurier, I think he’s a liability more often than not, just saying they should be judged evenly.

Yeh, that's a point. Aurier should only be compared to the PL, super strange.