Transition Myth

[Spurs_Bear]

am i the only one who thinks the more our players 'gel' or assimilate the chosen tactics the shitter they seem to get?

We actually get more mired in tactically inertia as time goes on.

My fear, as I have mentioned in the past, is that at the start of last season we were reasonably fluid, decent performances away at Reading, Southampton (was ok) etc, but then January hit and we were turgid and being rescued by Bale when our players brains started exploding. I'm hoping that this isn't the reason that Eriksen looked like he was playing with his cock in the first couple of matches, then went to shit when AVB got inside his head.

 

[CowInAComa]

My fear, as I have mentioned in the past, is that at the start of last season we were reasonably fluid, decent performances away at Reading, Southampton (was ok) etc, but then January hit and we were turgid and being rescued by Bale when our players brains started exploding. I'm hoping that this isn't the reason that Eriksen looked like he was playing with his cock in the first couple of matches, then went to shit when AVB got inside his head.

even Holtby to a degree, i seem to remember his first game (norwich?) and his first meaningful touch a little dinked ball over their defence. Dont think it came off, lost possession. Probably got a bollocking.

Soldado has basically given up making runs. Paulinho ..

 

[Spurs_Bear]

even Holtby to a degree, i seem to remember his first game (norwich?) and his first meaningful touch a little dinked ball over their defence. Dont think it came off, lost possession. Probably got a bollocking.

Soldado has basically given up making runs. Paulinho ..

I nearly shit myself when Holtby did that against Norwich, I travelled for 4 ****ing hours to get to Carrow Road for that game and enjoyed that immensely. I came on here the following day and said he was VdV reincarnated.

I now, look like a massive ****.

 

[dudu]

I nearly shit myself when Holtby did that against Norwich, I travelled for 4 ****ing hours to get to Carrow Road for that game and enjoyed that immensely. I came on here the following day and said he was VdV reincarnated.

I now, look like a massive ****.

panda?

 

[Spurs_Bear]

panda?

Not enough letters...

 

[CowInAComa]

I nearly shit myself when Holtby did that against Norwich, I travelled for 4 ****ing hours to get to Carrow Road for that game and enjoyed that immensely. I came on here the following day and said he was VdV reincarnated.

I now, look like a massive ****.

Its that sort of improvised first time no-thought 'natural' pass that is being strangled out of our players.

All this talk of AvB rehearsing moves until they become natural is a load of horseshit. These are professional footballers who have grown up with a ball at their feet every spare hour of the day since they could walk. They dont need to naturalise themselves to do anything. Its the sort of shit you will see a bunch of strangers attempting down the park on a sunday afternoon.

Even our attempts at quick passes, or interchanges look totally stilted or forced. People talk about us needing to find the key to unlock these defences, again horseshit, we miss the opportunities to get in on goal exactly because we are searching our pockets for the fucking 'key' when half the time the door is swinging wide open already.

 

[dudu]

Its that sort of improvised first time no-thought 'natural' pass that is being strangled out of our players.

All this talk of AvB rehearsing moves until they become natural is a load of horseshit. These are professional footballers who have grown up with a ball at their feet every spare hour of the day since they could walk. They dont need to naturalise themselves to do anything. Its the sort of shit you will see a bunch of strangers attempting down the park on a sunday afternoon.

Even our attempts at quick passes, or interchanges look totally stilted or forced. People talk about us needing to find the key to unlock these defences, again horseshit, we miss the opportunities to get in on goal exactly because we are searching our pockets for the fucking 'key' when half the time the door is swinging wide open already.

I mean you could use that same argument to say that a new system should come easy to them to.

Im a computer programmer, give me some new code to learn etc and its really not a problem for me to grasp as the theory behind what i am doing is largley the same as things i have done before. In fact, the more i learn the quicker i become at learning the new things i have put in front of me

it seems however more and more like what you are saying is the case though. I get the point of it but whats more worrying for me is that when we do get it right, and our tactics actually work, we dont have the balls to do what is needed to finish it off. Its a viscous circle. Losing confidence, struggling to get into confidence building positions but when we do we miss and are back to square -1.

 

[CowInAComa]

I mean you could use that same argument to say that a new system should come easy to them to.

Im a computer programmer, give me some new code to learn etc and its really not a problem for me to grasp as the theory behind what i am doing is largley the same as things i have done before. In fact, the more i learn the quicker i become at learning the new things i have put in front of me

it seems however more and more like what you are saying is the case though. I get the point of it but whats more worrying for me is that when we do get it right, and our tactics actually work, we dont have the balls to do what is needed to finish it off. Its a viscous circle. Losing confidence, struggling to get into confidence building positions but when we do we miss and are back to square -1.

but it is coming to them. i think we are implementing the style that AvB wants and the players are doing what is asked of think. I just dont think it works.

We maintain possession well, we press well, everyone knows their role. It just doesnt fucking work. Its easy to nullify. Its assimilating the system that is killing our attacking game not the inability to understand it.

hence initial performances of new signings being dynamic, fluid, expressive and a gradual degradation of all 3 over time.

 

[dudu]

but it is coming to them. i think we are implementing the style that AvB wants and the players are doing what is asked of think. I just dont think it works.

We maintain possession well, we press well, everyone knows their role. It just doesnt fucking work. Its easy to nullify. Its assimilating the system that is killing our attacking game not the inability to understand it.

hence initial performances of new signings being dynamic, fluid, expressive and a gradual degradation of all 3 over time.

I do agree and its so sad to see. Do you think more intelligent players would potentially find it easier to assimilate the system? Or is it just a case of too much thinking not enough feeling?

 

[CowInAComa]

I do agree and its so sad to see. Do you think more intelligent players would potentially find it easier to assimilate the system? Or is it just a case of too much thinking not enough feeling?

i think its time AvB started to trust in the ability of the players. Yes, let them run about a bit.

Eriksen knows how to play a killer pass, Soldado knows what runs a forward needs to make. etc etc. Dont go crazy, we need a framework, a formation, but trust them to know what to do and unleash them. Encourage them to try the occasional hollywood pass, the unexpected. dont beat them for it.

and it wont come off every time. but it will come off with increasing frequency, and thats when we will see this infamous 'gelling'. because thats all it is at the end of the day, its about learning what the guy behind you, or next to you is good at, and what he can do and the runs he likes to make.

we have so much potential. its being suffocated to the point its irrelevant who plays where, everyone is a robot.

 

[Mr Pink]

even Holtby to a degree, i seem to remember his first game (norwich?) and his first meaningful touch a little dinked ball over their defence. Dont think it came off, lost possession. Probably got a bollocking.

Soldado has basically given up making runs. Paulinho ..

This is exactly my worry to. Great little example you've remembered, and as Bear points out with Eriksen as well - its concerning.

Its why I've been saying relentlessly that the players are playing within themselves. It certainly feels like they've been instructed to play a certain way and its taking away from their natural games, thus we don't see the best of them.

Yes the collective comes first but when you start restricting the strengths and qualities of certain players it compromises the collective anyway.

I really do fear that AVB's ideas are the real problem, and he's going to have to become more flexible and adaptable if he's to survive managing in this League. I know many will argue that this shift in the way we play can take time, but can you name one of our attack minded players who are playing to a standard they should? I can't. Only Eriksen's performance against Norwich stands out.

Weird as soon as Townsend slings on an England shirt he looks like a different player as well.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

There seems to be this myth around that we are in transition and that why we are doing worse than everyone else. We may be in transition but that isnt a excuse, when compared to everyone else when they also had to deal with large amounts of change. Looking at the table in its current order Here is the changes been made, since AVB joined.

Arsenal:
Same Manager
7 players in. Including Ozil, Giroud, Podolski, Carzola and more(not including youth like Sanogo
5/6 players out. Including

Liverpool:
1 new manager(joined a month earlier than AVB)
This season
8 players in. (Moses, Cissoko, Luis Alberto, Iago Aspas, Mignolet, Toure, Illori and Sakho)
6 out.(not including Borini)

Last Season
6 In. Borini, Sturridge, Assaidi, Allen, Sahin and Coutinho
10 out. including sahin lol

Chelsea
3 different managers
11 players in. Hazard, Oscar, Schurrle, Willian, Atsu, De Bruyne and etc.
8/9 out. Not including the 30 loans like Lukaku, Moses, Marin and etc.

Man City:
2 different managers
11 players in. Negredo, Navas, Fernandinho and etc.
16 players out. Tevez, De Jong, Balotelli, Toure and etc. (not including 30 loans)

Southampton
2 different managers
11 players in. Wanyama, Lovren, Osvaldo...
shitload out. they got promoted

Man Utd:
2 different managers
6 players in. Van Persie, Kagawa, Zaha and etc.
4 players out. Berbatov, Scholes

Everton:
2 different managers
13 players in. Miralles, Kone, Deulofeu and etc.
10 out. Fellaini, Neville, Cahill...

Newcastle:
Same manager
9 players in.(the French Ligue all stars)
12 players out.

Tottenham:
1 new manager
First Season
7 players in. Siggy(technically signed before AVB), Vertonghen(this seemed to be agreed before), Ade(he was already apart of the team), Lloris, Dembele and Holtby
12 players out. Modric and VDV but Gio, Pienaar, Corluka and Bassong, werent at the club for at least 6 months. Also worth noting that Saha and Nelson were released before AVB got here. So this figure is closer to 5-7 in reality. Also Jenas left


This Season
7 players in. you should know who
7 players out. Bale, Parker, Dempsey, Hudd, Caulker, Gallas and Bentley. So again Bentley shouldnt count really as he has played for us in years.

I dont want AVB sacked yet, as I think he should have more time to turn it around but this transition bollocks is just that. Yes we have to change the way we play but if it wasnt for Bale last season we would be alot lower down the table and AVB should of made changes to the system then. We are paying for the fact we dont have a get out of jail card.

Now while we lost alot of players so have the rest. The difference in incomings in is not much, same as Liverpool, one more than Everton, 3 more than Chelsea(not including the likes of Atsu and etc.), 3 more than City and etc. Everton and Liverpool both have changed the way they play and in Everton's case that is linked to the fact them losing their big players as well.

Also another fact for you guys Brendon Rodgers is currently the 6th longest serving manager in the premier league, had AVB been employed 4 weeks earlier, he would have been the 6th longest serving manager! In terms of actually managing in the premier league he would be 4th since two of the managers, were in the championship last season.

So what your list shows is that

a) we have had the most players in and out of anyone on that list.
b) none of those other teams have lost 3 world class players in that period
c) Some of those teams have signed one or more world class players. We have signed possibly one, a goalkeeper.
d) with some of the teams the signings were more squad based, with us we have literally swapped (when Dawson finally gets the chop) just about 10 regular first team players. None of the other teams have done this.


You say we are doing worse than everyone else. But the reality is there is 4 points between all those teams on your list bar Arsenal.

There is no rule book to how different players, in different teams, playing under different managers will individually and/or collectively go through a period of transition.

There is also no allowance in your assessment for the fact that but for a shinner or a bit of luck, or Defoe scoring first when clean through in a couple of games, or keepers not setting opta records we'd possibly be a few points better off and the mass hysteria over being 2 points off the CL places and 4 points off second place with 26 games still to play might not be taking place.

Not one player purchased this summer has set (a footballing) foot in this country before. Many of them are very young and a long way from the finished product.

We have replaced 5 of our front 6 players effectively this season.


Do you not think we are exaggerating the crisis a little. That some of us need to re-evaluate the reality ?

Are we really talking about sacking a manager because we are 4 points off second place with 12 games gone ? I'm all for ambition but a little dose of fucking realism goes a long way too.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I nearly shit myself when Holtby did that against Norwich, I travelled for 4 ****ing hours to get to Carrow Road for that game and enjoyed that immensely. I came on here the following day and said he was VdV reincarnated.

I now, look like a massive ****.

Now ?

 

[Mr Pink]

Does make you wonder though, doesn't it.

Soldado has looked worse as time has gone on. He looked ok early on, even decent against Norwich and Cardiff. Paulinho the same, very good against Swansea etc....Eriksen obviously on his debut against Norwich.

Things havn't just stayed the same frustratingly, they've got worse. What's the reason....City and Everton away are tough fixtures, but it still doesn't explain why our performances remain sterile and are getting worse in truth.

 

[Mr Pink]

So what your list shows is that

a) we have had the most players in and out of anyone on that list.
b) none of those other teams have lost 3 world class players in that period
c) Some of those teams have signed one or more world class players. We have signed possibly one, a goalkeeper.
d) with some of the teams the signings were more squad based, with us we have literally swapped (when Dawson finally gets the chop) just about 10 regular first team players. None of the other teams have done this.


You say we are doing worse than everyone else. But the reality is there is 4 points between all those teams on your list bar Arsenal.

There is no rule book to how different players, in different teams, playing under different managers will individually and/or collectively go through a period of transition.

There is also no allowance in your assessment for the fact that but for a shinier or a bit of luck, or Defoe scoring first when clean through in a couple of games, or keepers not setting opta records we'd possibly be a few points better off and the mass hysteria over being 2 points off the CL places and 4 points off second place with 26 games still to play might not be taking place.

Not one player purchased this summer has set (a footballing) foot in this country before. Many of them are very young and a long way from the finished product.

We have replaced 5 of our front 6 players effectively this season.


Do you not think we are exaggerating the crisis a little. That some of us need to re-evaluate the reality ?

Are we really talking about sacking a manager because we are 4 points off second place with 12 games gone ? I'm all for ambition but a little dose of fucking realism goes a long way too.

BC, do you honestly believe we'll be 4 points off second place in another 6 games if things keep up. We're going to need to see some change pretty quickly IMO.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

even Holtby to a degree, i seem to remember his first game (norwich?) and his first meaningful touch a little dinked ball over their defence. Dont think it came off, lost possession. Probably got a bollocking.

Soldado has basically given up making runs. Paulinho ..

This is exactly my worry to. Great little example you've remembered, and as Bear points out with Eriksen as well - its concerning.

Its why I've been saying relentlessly that the players are playing within themselves. It certainly feels like they've been instructed to play a certain way and its taking away from their natural games, thus we don't see the best of them.

Yes the collective comes first but when you start restricting the strengths and qualities of certain players it compromises the collective anyway.

I really do fear that AVB's ideas are the real problem, and he's going to have to become more flexible and adaptable if he's to survive managing in this League. I know many will argue that this shift in the way we play can take time, but can you name one of our attack minded players who are playing to a standard they should? I can't. Only Eriksen's performance against Norwich stands out.

Weird as soon as Townsend slings on an England shirt he looks like a different player as well.

This is such an idiotic load of bollocks to be spouting.


That presumably grown-up people can actually believe this kind of bullshit. That AVB - who has tried all along to buy clever players like Modric at Chelsea, Mata (I think), Moutinho (twice), Willian, Eriksen etc should do so with the soul intention of stopping them from playing instinctively.

It was under him that Moutinho flourished as a player.

This really is a fuckwitted idea going round that AVB is somehow coaching players not to be creative or incisive or to think for themselves when they have the chance. Is Townsend looking shackled by a mental straightjacket ? Seriously ? the fucking ki's running all the place.

Because a bunch of players, new to a country, a tough new league and mostly each other, as well as some being nothing more than kids, are not clicking harmoniously it's because their coach has planted risk averse chips in their heads ?

 

[Mr Pink]

This is such an idiotic load of bollocks to be spouting.


That presumably grown-up people can actually believe this kind of bullshit. That AVB - who has tried all along to buy clever players like Modric at Chelsea, Mata (I think), Moutinho (twice), Willian, Eriksen etc should do so with the soul intention of stopping them from playing instinctively.

It was under him that Moutinho flourished as a player.

This really is a fuckwitted idea going round that AVB is somehow coaching players not to be creative or incisive or to think for themselves when they have the chance. Is Townsend looking shackled by a mental straightjacket ? Seriously ? the fucking ki's running all the place.

Because a bunch of players, new to a country, a tough new league and mostly each other, as well as some being nothing more than kids, are not clicking harmoniously it's because their coach has planted risk averse chips in their heads ?

Its not really idiotic though BC. Of course he's not intentionally setting out to do that on an individual basis to the players he acquires, that's a ridiculous notion.

But he could be limiting their natural games inadvertently with such emphasis on the collective - the ideas and philosophies he's trying to integrate could be having an affect on some of them.

You've totally simplified the point.

 

[Mr Pink]

And this will really grate you BC....

what I wouldn't give for Hudd and Modric in the middle these days....open as fuck, but boy could we play lol

 

[CowInAComa]

This is such an idiotic load of bollocks to be spouting.


That presumably grown-up people can actually believe this kind of bullshit. That AVB - who has tried all along to buy clever players like Modric at Chelsea, Mata (I think), Moutinho (twice), Willian, Eriksen etc should do so with the soul intention of stopping them from playing instinctively.

It was under him that Moutinho flourished as a player.

This really is a fuckwitted idea going round that AVB is somehow coaching players not to be creative or incisive or to think for themselves when they have the chance. Is Townsend looking shackled by a mental straightjacket ? Seriously ? the fucking ki's running all the place.

Because a bunch of players, new to a country, a tough new league and mostly each other, as well as some being nothing more than kids, are not clicking harmoniously it's because their coach has planted risk averse chips in their heads ?

or to put it in less flowery language, do i think that AvBs methodology and philsophies hinder rather than help the natural creativity of our players and the team as a whole?

Yes. Yes I absolutely do.

And I think performances, and our goal scoring records add credence to that view. And I think if we dont conveniently ignore last season the degradation of our invention as the first season went on also adds credence to it.

Im sure you are going to highlight Bale (being the only example i can think of) but which player has bloomed under AvB during his time in England?

 

[Mr Pink]

or to put it in less flowery language, do i think that AvBs methodology and philsophies hinder rather than help the natural creativity of our players and the team as a whole?

Yes. Yes I absolutely do.

And I think performances, and our goal scoring records add credence to that view. And I think if we dont conveniently ignore last season the degradation of our invention as the first season went on also adds credence to it.

Im sure you are going to highlight Bale (being the only example i can think of) but which player has bloomed under AvB during his time in England?

I really hope BC plumps for Dawson lol