Transition Myth

[beats1]

There seems to be this myth around that we are in transition and that why we are doing worse than everyone else. We may be in transition but that isnt a excuse, when compared to everyone else when they also had to deal with large amounts of change. Looking at the table in its current order Here is the changes been made, since AVB joined.

Arsenal:
Same Manager
7 players in. Including Ozil, Giroud, Podolski, Carzola and more(not including youth like Sanogo
5/6 players out. Including

Liverpool:
1 new manager(joined a month earlier than AVB)
This season
8 players in. (Moses, Cissoko, Luis Alberto, Iago Aspas, Mignolet, Toure, Illori and Sakho)
6 out.(not including Borini)

Last Season
6 In. Borini, Sturridge, Assaidi, Allen, Sahin and Coutinho
10 out. including sahin lol

Chelsea
3 different managers
11 players in. Hazard, Oscar, Schurrle, Willian, Atsu, De Bruyne and etc.
8/9 out. Not including the 30 loans like Lukaku, Moses, Marin and etc.

Man City:
2 different managers
11 players in. Negredo, Navas, Fernandinho and etc.
16 players out. Tevez, De Jong, Balotelli, Toure and etc. (not including 30 loans)

Southampton
2 different managers
11 players in. Wanyama, Lovren, Osvaldo...
shitload out. they got promoted

Man Utd:
2 different managers
6 players in. Van Persie, Kagawa, Zaha and etc.
4 players out. Berbatov, Scholes

Everton:
2 different managers
13 players in. Miralles, Kone, Deulofeu and etc.
10 out. Fellaini, Neville, Cahill...

Newcastle:
Same manager
9 players in.(the French Ligue all stars)
12 players out.

Tottenham:
1 new manager
First Season
7 players in. Siggy(technically signed before AVB), Vertonghen(this seemed to be agreed before), Ade(he was already apart of the team), Lloris, Dembele and Holtby
12 players out. Modric and VDV but Gio, Pienaar, Corluka and Bassong, werent at the club for at least 6 months. Also worth noting that Saha and Nelson were released before AVB got here. So this figure is closer to 5-7 in reality. Also Jenas left


This Season
7 players in. you should know who
7 players out. Bale, Parker, Dempsey, Hudd, Caulker, Gallas and Bentley. So again Bentley shouldnt count really as he has played for us in years.

I dont want AVB sacked yet, as I think he should have more time to turn it around but this transition bollocks is just that. Yes we have to change the way we play but if it wasnt for Bale last season we would be alot lower down the table and AVB should of made changes to the system then. We are paying for the fact we dont have a get out of jail card.

Now while we lost alot of players so have the rest. The difference in incomings in is not much, same as Liverpool, one more than Everton, 3 more than Chelsea(not including the likes of Atsu and etc.), 3 more than City and etc. Everton and Liverpool both have changed the way they play and in Everton's case that is linked to the fact them losing their big players as well.

Also another fact for you guys Brendon Rodgers is currently the 6th longest serving manager in the premier league, had AVB been employed 4 weeks earlier, he would have been the 6th longest serving manager! In terms of actually managing in the premier league he would be 4th since two of the managers, were in the championship last season.

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

Great. We needed another thread where everyone vents about how much better AVB should be doing.

 

[CowInAComa]

There seems to be this myth around that we are in transition and that why we are doing worse than everyone else. We may be in transition but that isnt a excuse, when compared to everyone else when they also had to deal with large amounts of change. Looking at the table in its current order Here is the changes been made, since AVB joined.

Arsenal:
Same Manager
7 players in. Including Ozil, Giroud, Podolski, Carzola and more(not including youth like Sanogo
5/6 players out. Including

Liverpool:
1 new manager(joined a month earlier than AVB)
This season
8 players in. (Moses, Cissoko, Luis Alberto, Iago Aspas, Mignolet, Toure, Illori and Sakho)
6 out.(not including Borini)

Last Season
6 In. Borini, Sturridge, Assaidi, Allen, Sahin and Coutinho
10 out. including sahin lol

Chelsea
3 different managers
11 players in. Hazard, Oscar, Schurrle, Willian, Atsu, De Bruyne and etc.
8/9 out. Not including the 30 loans like Lukaku, Moses, Marin and etc.

Man City:
2 different managers
11 players in. Negredo, Navas, Fernandinho and etc.
16 players out. Tevez, De Jong, Balotelli, Toure and etc. (not including 30 loans)

Southampton
2 different managers
11 players in. Wanyama, Lovren, Osvaldo...
shitload out. they got promoted

Man Utd:
2 different managers
6 players in. Van Persie, Kagawa, Zaha and etc.
4 players out. Berbatov, Scholes

Everton:
2 different managers
13 players in. Miralles, Kone, Deulofeu and etc.
10 out. Fellaini, Neville, Cahill...

Newcastle:
Same manager
9 players in.(the French Ligue all stars)
12 players out.

Tottenham:
1 new manager
First Season
7 players in. Siggy(technically signed before AVB), Vertonghen(this seemed to be agreed before), Ade(he was already apart of the team), Lloris, Dembele and Holtby
12 players out. Modric and VDV but Gio, Pienaar, Corluka and Bassong, werent at the club for at least 6 months. Also worth noting that Saha and Nelson were released before AVB got here. So this figure is closer to 5-7 in reality. Also Jenas left


This Season
7 players in. you should know who
7 players out. Bale, Parker, Dempsey, Hudd, Caulker, Gallas and Bentley. So again Bentley shouldnt count really as he has played for us in years.

I dont want AVB sacked yet, as I think he should have more time to turn it around but this transition bollocks is just that. Yes we have to change the way we play but if it wasnt for Bale last season we would be alot lower down the table and AVB should of made changes to the system then. We are paying for the fact we dont have a get out of jail card.

Now while we lost alot of players so have the rest. The difference in incomings in is not much, same as Liverpool, one more than Everton, 3 more than Chelsea(not including the likes of Atsu and etc.), 3 more than City and etc. Everton and Liverpool both have changed the way they play and in Everton's case that is linked to the fact them losing their big players as well.

Also another fact for you guys Brendon Rodgers is currently the 6th longest serving manager in the premier league, had AVB been employed 4 weeks earlier, he would have been the 6th longest serving manager! In terms of actually managing in the premier league he would be 4th since two of the managers, were in the championship last season.

yeah but none of those sides are going to achieve anything this season.

 

[shelfboy68]

Great. We needed another thread where everyone vents about how much better AVB should be doing.

What do you think needs to be said or done then as I think beats makes some very valid points.

 

[beats1]

Great. We needed another thread where everyone vents about how much better AVB should be doing.

I dont think it is a case of that just the fact that people keep saying we are in transition which is hardly true imo and if so, so is everyone else except Arsenal.

Like I said I dont think AVB should be sacked but I dont think he should be hiding behind this excuse either

 

[jamesc0le]

i hate these myths, gelling, getting to know eachother. fuck that, like football was rocket science ffs.

 

[CheeseGromit]

This analysis is just too simple

Timings of changes are important, changes to core of the team play apart

You could say we have only had 11or so games this season so what marker do you take from so few games

It is AVB 's first season (11 games) with a new side. Don't forget how poor L Arse were at the beginning of last year or Bindippers inconsistency

Southampton were promoted before AVB joined and again have not yet achieved anything (last years WBA ?? Don't know yet)

Too many other factors to take into account. I do remember Manure Scoring 8 not so long ago

I am not sure I really care how the others get on. I want improvements at Spurs

 

[Geyzer Soze]

(1)This analysis is just too simple

Timings of changes are important, changes to core of the team play apart

You could say we have only had 11or so games this season so what marker do you take from so few games

It is AVB 's first season (11 games) with a new side. Don't forget how poor L Arse were at the beginning of last year or Bindippers inconsistency

Southampton were promoted before AVB joined and again have not yet achieved anything (last years WBA ?? Don't know yet)

Too many other factors to take into account. I do remember Manure Scoring 8 not so long ago

(2) I am not sure I really care how the others get on. I want improvements at Spurs

(1) Its a good starting point for a very valid train of thought though

(2) I think that's kind of Beats' point in a way

 

[mil1lion]

The transition is not just the new players but it is the transition into a new style of play that is the main issue.

Last season we were a counter attacking team who didn't keep the ball well enough. We were at our best when teams came out and left space. There were still plenty of games, especially at home where teams set their stall out to defend and we struggled. It was often the spectacular individual long rangers from Bale that broke teams down in those situations.

Things have changed this season. We're keeping the ball better and that means we have to be more intricate in our play in order to open teams up. That is our ultimate failing at the moment. The trouble is we still benefit from space being left by teams that attack us. We seem to be stuck between two styles of play at the moment. It's almost like we're actually keeping the ball too well now and are not showing the quality needed to open teams up.

I really do hope we learn how to play the possession game and fast.

 

[Hoddle&Waddle]

i hate these myths, gelling, getting to know eachother. fuck that, like football was rocket science ffs.

Exactly, u could maybe use that excuse for the first 3/4 games, but we have played 12 games (in the league) and hundreds of hours on the training pitch.

 

[beats1]

The transition is not just the new players but it is the transition into a new style of play that is the main issue.

Interesting you say that because then you could say every team is in transition as

Arsenal - moved from possession game to a deep counter attacking team
Liverpool - changed from counter attacking team to a possession team to abit of both this season
Chelsea - arent sure where they are at this season with Mourinho in alien territory in relation to the players he has
Man City - gone from ultra defensive to high pressing counter attacking team
Southampton - have also started pressing harder than they were under Atkins
Man Utd - dont know what changed to but it aint pretty
Everton - retain the ball more than before and do attack with conviction under Martinez and if anything have a couple of different styles with the likes of Lukaku and etc.
Newcastle - have largely been the same but had change the system abit with misfiring Cisse and they have had dropped their most creative player in Ben Arfa to play more direct with Gouffran

Of course these philosophy changes may not be as drastic as ours but there is something I learned whilst doing my degree, that with academically smart graduates, it is all well and good if you have the perfect plan but if you can translate it or show you colleagues how to execute it. It is at the end of the day worthless or never get off the ground.

 

[Kiedis]

Compare the most used starting elevens then. How many of the new (as in arrived after AVB) players are playing at the same time?

For Liverpool, it's basically Sturridge, Coutinho and Mignolet that are "new".
For United, there's Van Persie. (guys like Kagawa and Zaha hardly get a sniff)
For City, there's Fernandinho. Navas and Negredo.
For Chelsea, it's Oscar and Hazard.
For Soton, it's Lovren and Wanyama
For Arsenal, it's Özil, Cazorla and Giroud.
For Everton, it's Mirallas, Barry, McCarthy and Lukaku.

For us, it's Lloris, Vertonghen, Paulinho, Townsend (basically a new player), Dembele, Eriksen, Soldado.
Add Chiriches, Holtby, Chadli, Rose (also "new"), Naughton ("new"), Capoue.

The other teams have had more stability and have been able to maintain a "spine" in their team. We have had to face a total squad overhaul, and I think our challenge has been greater than that of our opponents.

"Veteran list" (players that have been at the club more than two seasons, that still play a part. Some mentioned, some forgotten.)

Liverpools: Johnson, Skrtl, Agger, Enrique, Lucas, Gerrard, Henderson and Suarez.
Man Utd: Rafeal, Ferdinand, Smalling, Cleverley, Anderson, Vidic, Evans, Evra, Carrick, Nani, Rooney, Hernandez, Valencia, Young + +
Chelsea: Cech, Ivanovic, Cahill, Terry, Luiz, Cole, Lampard, Mikel, Torres, Mata, Ramires
Everton: Howard, Coleman, Jagielka, Distin, Baines, Osman, Gibson, Pienaar, Jelavic
Soton: Boruc, Clyne, Fonte, Shaw, Lallana, Cork, Scheiderlin, Lambert
Arsenal: S#¤&/(y, Sagna, Mertesacker, Koscielny, Vermaelen, Gibbs, Arteta, Ramsey, Wilshere, Rosicky, Bendtner (lol)

Newcastle: Krul, Taylor, Tiote, Gutierrez, Ameobi (actually an interesting example: many new players, relegation form at times, then looking gradually better)

Our veterans are: Friedel, Dawson, Lennon, Kaboul, Walker, Defoe and Adebayor. My impression is that we have fever "veterans" playing at the same time than our opponents.


This is just from the top of my head, so I'm open to any "OMFG, n00000b"-comments.

 

[chrissivad]

Last transfer window Arsenal brought in 4 players (1 also being an ex player)
Total pitch time this season: 1295 mins

Chelsea: 7 new players
Total pitch time this season: 1174 mins

Liverpool: 8 new players (Toure and Mignolet already played in the PL)
Total pitch time: 3530 mins

City: 5 new players
Total pitch time: 2552 mins

United: 2 new players
Total pitch time: 628 mins

Tottenham: 7 new players
Total pitch time: 3391

Total pitch time this season= Premier League


Liverpool have given most time to their new signings, but 1822 mins are made up from players already played in the PL.

 

[Martinhotspur]

The difference between us and Liverpool they kept their best player we sold ours and we wonder why they are above us in the league. The likes of Paulinho and Lamela are going to take a season to get used to the premiership. Ramires was awful for Chelsea for the first season or so then came good.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

Liverpool kept their best player but were without him for the first few games of the season don't forget.

 

[dudu]

There seems to be this myth around that we are in transition and that why we are doing worse than everyone else. We may be in transition but that isnt a excuse, when compared to everyone else when they also had to deal with large amounts of change. Looking at the table in its current order Here is the changes been made, since AVB joined.

Arsenal:
Same Manager
7 players in. Including Ozil, Giroud, Podolski, Carzola and more(not including youth like Sanogo
5/6 players out. Including

Liverpool:
1 new manager(joined a month earlier than AVB)
This season
8 players in. (Moses, Cissoko, Luis Alberto, Iago Aspas, Mignolet, Toure, Illori and Sakho)
6 out.(not including Borini)

Last Season
6 In. Borini, Sturridge, Assaidi, Allen, Sahin and Coutinho
10 out. including sahin lol

Chelsea
3 different managers
11 players in. Hazard, Oscar, Schurrle, Willian, Atsu, De Bruyne and etc.
8/9 out. Not including the 30 loans like Lukaku, Moses, Marin and etc.

Man City:
2 different managers
11 players in. Negredo, Navas, Fernandinho and etc.
16 players out. Tevez, De Jong, Balotelli, Toure and etc. (not including 30 loans)

Southampton
2 different managers
11 players in. Wanyama, Lovren, Osvaldo...
shitload out. they got promoted

Man Utd:
2 different managers
6 players in. Van Persie, Kagawa, Zaha and etc.
4 players out. Berbatov, Scholes

Everton:
2 different managers
13 players in. Miralles, Kone, Deulofeu and etc.
10 out. Fellaini, Neville, Cahill...

Newcastle:
Same manager
9 players in.(the French Ligue all stars)
12 players out.

Tottenham:
1 new manager
First Season
7 players in. Siggy(technically signed before AVB), Vertonghen(this seemed to be agreed before), Ade(he was already apart of the team), Lloris, Dembele and Holtby
12 players out. Modric and VDV but Gio, Pienaar, Corluka and Bassong, werent at the club for at least 6 months. Also worth noting that Saha and Nelson were released before AVB got here. So this figure is closer to 5-7 in reality. Also Jenas left


This Season
7 players in. you should know who
7 players out. Bale, Parker, Dempsey, Hudd, Caulker, Gallas and Bentley. So again Bentley shouldnt count really as he has played for us in years.

I dont want AVB sacked yet, as I think he should have more time to turn it around but this transition bollocks is just that. Yes we have to change the way we play but if it wasnt for Bale last season we would be alot lower down the table and AVB should of made changes to the system then. We are paying for the fact we dont have a get out of jail card.

Now while we lost alot of players so have the rest. The difference in incomings in is not much, same as Liverpool, one more than Everton, 3 more than Chelsea(not including the likes of Atsu and etc.), 3 more than City and etc. Everton and Liverpool both have changed the way they play and in Everton's case that is linked to the fact them losing their big players as well.

Also another fact for you guys Brendon Rodgers is currently the 6th longest serving manager in the premier league, had AVB been employed 4 weeks earlier, he would have been the 6th longest serving manager! In terms of actually managing in the premier league he would be 4th since two of the managers, were in the championship last season.

Disagree.

The size of our transition and the number of moving parts along side their collective world and prem experience is hindering our footballing more so than lets say;

Man U with just the playing staff as new..... Their players still get to play with the same players they built partnerships up with over the last 2-3 years.....

Liverpool; very few new players this year most of them defensive where they still looks a bit shaky but how did they do during their bigger transition last summer? not so well if i remember?

Chelsea? not that many new players and a proven world class coach. But what did they win last year? 4 managers in 2 years and a whole host of new players? Did they hit the ground running last season?

and....

Arsenal 3 years ago after losing Cesc, Nasri and Song? they struggled to get going for half a season but Wenger and RVP - both highly experienced professional managed to help steady the ship.

 

[Martinhotspur]

Liverpool kept their best player but were without him for the first few games of the season don't forget.

They still kept their best player we are not going to wheel out Bale anytime soon.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

They still kept their best player we are not going to wheel out Bale anytime soon.

Quite right but I don't believe it's an excuse to say it's the reason they are doing better than us when they were without him for the first few games.

 

[CowInAComa]

am i the only one who thinks the more our players 'gel' or assimilate the chosen tactics the shitter they seem to get?

We actually get more mired in tactically inertia as time goes on.

 

[CowInAComa]

Quite right but I don't believe it's an excuse to say it's the reason they are doing better than us when they were without him for the first few games.

I think including the end of last season when he was first banned the run of games they went on was their best run for years.