The Mauricio Pochettino thread

[shelfboy68]

There doesn't seem to me much smoke yet. When we tend to sack managers it happens quite quickly. Was kind of expecting him not to be here when I woke up this morning.

I'm sure the board would meet like they normally do anyway and if a decision is made to fire alongside who to hire this will probably happen during the break.

 

[poc]

View attachment 56360

Teams not working hard enough last season and this one so far. Have they stopped running for him?

Felt like this has been the case for a while with Kane being the main reason with each ankle injury he received he seemed to chase and press less and less (understandable by the way) for me it starts with him if he is doing it properly then the rest will follow. Don't get me wrong he I feel like is choosing to extend his career and is still doing his main job which is scoring but for poch's pressing game it sets a poor example.

 

[Spurzinho]

The question for me is not whether we owe Poch or not, nor is it whether we have the players to turn it around. The question is, is the morale situation salvageable. My instinct is no, no its not. Once things get like this you seldom see it turn around. The respect, fear, admiration and fierce loyalty that once seemed to exist is totally absent. Things haven't felt quite right since Kyle Walker left. Things got even weirder when Danny Rose went blabbermouthing to the press. Since then Poch has looked more and more temperamental, sulky, isolated, paranoid and erratic.

 

[glacierSpurs]

They have the energy and pace to do so. We don’t have those players other than son and moura.

Same players are now 5 years older , but definitely not covering as much as they used to.

I came to realise its nothing about pace, age, skill, height, nutrition, boots they wore. It something Poch always boast about - the spirit, the commitment, the mentality.

We totally lost all these as you could easily see how much yards we lost to even Brighton players.

If age is anything to go by when comes speed, just look at James fucking Milner. Even Lewa can outrun our players, let that thought sink in.

 

[Deleted member 27995]

The question for me is not whether we owe Poch or not, nor is it whether we have the players to turn it around. The question is, is the morale situation salvageable. My instinct is no, no its not. Once things get like this you seldom see it turn around. The respect, fear, admiration and fierce loyalty that once seemed to exist is totally absent. Things haven't felt quite right since Kyle Walker left. Things got even weirder when Danny Rose went blabbermouthing to the press. Since then Poch has looked more and more temperamental, sulky, isolated, paranoid and erratic.

Had time to enjoy penning a book and touring with it though ...

Man has created some of his own pitfalls.

 

[idontgetit]

Two ITKs came in the thread a few pages back to pass on info but since it was bashing Poch many just ignored it. You’ve gotta laugh. People are far too emotionally attached to the guy

Hey I was asking about ITK earlier, any chance of linking to it? It's a huge thread

 

[Gb160]

Dutch coach Raymond Verheijen is a well known critic of Poch's training methods. In fact the more time passes the more right he seems. He's been calling this since Poch came to this country. Here's just one link https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2016/05/...asts-pochettino-on-twitter-claims-spurs-rece/

im not saying he's wrong but he criticises almost every clubs training methods....mainly Klopp at Liverpool.

Also your sig hasn't aged well mate.

 

[sausage]

This is starting to feel like Jol's last season. In the summer before Jol's departure we sold Carrick but carried on getting good results.

The next summer we held onto our players and bought in several young players so the naive optimist in me believed we were going into the season with a solid team and a stronger squad. Instead we were stale, opposition teams had worked us out and we performed terribly.

Against the odds we held onto our players this summer and bought 3 potentially good players. We look stale and teams know how to setup against us.

Of course the main difference is we have several players here who don't want to be here.

So as a club, the board need to decide if Poch is culpable and needs to go or if they need to back him 100% and follow his vision. Poch does have ideas and he has been here long enough for the board to know whether he is a man worth backing.

I still remain pitifully on the fence.

I think you're glossing over an issue there - managers need to constantly adapt their team as a whole, not as sum parts.

Poch started off with a gametype that no one else was doing at the time, and now everyone has adapted to the high press (even internationally). The issue is that he hasn't learn anything from what he should have observed, it seems, and yes - teams have worked us out. He's now trying out a tactic that isn't an evolution or adjustment - it's a complete change from what he built the squad for.

I'm obviously no football manager, but collectively I think we've noticed that we aren't doing to teams that have copied our press what they used to do to us - soak it up and hit them on the counter. We should be doing what Bayern did, especially as Son and Moura love to break the line and score.

In short, a lot of people are glossing over the fact that Poch hasn't evolved his tactics - he's just changed them. We know this has been his weakness, and almost everyone with footballing rep has noticed over the years (the Plan B, substitutions etc.).. The concern I think most have now accepted after a long, long, time is that he is showing no signs of letting the penny drop.

As much as they get knocked for it, the reasons why managers like Allardyce seem to over-achieve with relegation-threatened squads (Sunderland/West Ham/Everton) is because they look at the players and think "How do I make these players win games", and they adjust to make the most of their strengths. This seems to be the root of success - make a team that is the best sum of its parts. I don't want this to be a "omg I can't believe you're comparing BFS to Poch", as it isn't that, but what I'm trying to say is that Poch hasn't set up the squad to be the best combination of individuals for a long time, and he's now setting a formation that we aren't capable of playing, and people are blaming the club for not having those players. That's not how a good tactician works, and I imagine that's why players are getting annoyed; they'll be thinking "Hey, I'm good when we play like that, why are you lining us up like this? It isn't working and you're making us look bad".

To summarise, I don't believe we don't have the players available - I think the manager isn't using them collectively to their best any more. That's why I fully expect that someone else would come in and get them playing well right away.

 

[Spurzinho]

im not saying he's wrong but he criticises almost every clubs training methods....mainly Klopp at Liverpool.

Also your sig hasn't aged well mate.

Which is why I leave it there.

 

[Sevens]

We’ve challenged for the league under Poch. Never anyone else.

I disagree. Our league challenge was never serious. We were never anywhere near and were always chasing.

I am not being facetious and am genuinely interested if anyone knows this answer (because I don't!). Does anyone know how many days we've spent at the top of the Premier League under Poch's tenure?

 

[spursfan77]

Has anyone listened to this?



Jjetset saying dan kilpatrick is spot on with his summary of us

 

[Yiddo100]

I disagree. Our league challenge was never serious. We were never anywhere near and were always chasing.

I am not being facetious and am genuinely interested if anyone knows this answer (because I don't!). Does anyone know how many days we've spent at the top of the Premier League under Poch's tenure?

We were challenging though

 

[Sevens]

We were challenging though

I'd say that was a subjective statement. Any team with a mathematical chance of winning the league still could be considered challenging. The perception is that the team in second place is challenging the leader. The reality can be very different. For example the year Leicester won the title we were the perceived "challengers" and Arsenal weren't perceived to be challenging at all. And yet in January they were above us in the league and by May we finished below them.

 

[sausage]

I disagree. Our league challenge was never serious. We were never anywhere near and were always chasing.

I am not being facetious and am genuinely interested if anyone knows this answer (because I don't!). Does anyone know how many days we've spent at the top of the Premier League under Poch's tenure?

One game week (2nd, I think) in maybe 14/15 or 15/16 is the only time.

 

[Dannyspur]

Whether it is Poch or the players, we have been playing possession in our own half, allowing the opponents to get organised and then we attack at the speed of lightening a snail, trying to break through with stupid little flicks and sideways passes. The only time we have attacked with any pace was against palace and ended up 4-0 by half time. Against Newcastle on more than one occasion we took 5 passes to get from the Lloris to the halfway line even though the whole Newcastle team were lined up 10 yards from their penalty box. Gone are the dynamic end to end sweeping moves to be replaced by pedestrian crap week in week out. The players are capable as the first 20 mins against Bayern showed. Some arses need kicking - though we would probably miss.

 

[Ronwol196061]

The question for me is not whether we owe Poch or not, nor is it whether we have the players to turn it around. The question is, is the morale situation salvageable. My instinct is no, no its not. Once things get like this you seldom see it turn around. The respect, fear, admiration and fierce loyalty that once seemed to exist is totally absent. Things haven't felt quite right since Kyle Walker left. Things got even weirder when Danny Rose went blabbermouthing to the press. Since then Poch has looked more and more temperamental, sulky, isolated, paranoid and erratic.

I agree I also read your links re Raymond Verheijen. He seemed to throw his weight about others too like Klopp as well. But I do agree that Pochs ideas are limited.They caught the league by surprise and now everyone has caught up and where we are missing is sound strategies.I think Poch only had the one and as yet has not show that he can adapt or at least so quick to develop systems to counter what other teams are doing as the crazy mad running doesn't have other ideas to go with it. We haven't developed. Poch put all his faith in the one idea and we've bought some more attacking players but it seems there is no real plan to change it,its just trial and error and its the error part that's been winning

 

[Matrix]

I came to realise its nothing about pace, age, skill, height, nutrition, boots they wore. It something Poch always boast about - the spirit, the commitment, the mentality.

We totally lost all these as you could easily see how much yards we lost to even Brighton players.

If age is anything to go by when comes speed, just look at James fucking Milner. Even Lewa can outrun our players, let that thought sink in.

I think only Sissoko and Lamela have the commitment and mentality to press.

 

[Ronwol196061]

Whether it is Poch or the players, we have been playing possession in our own half, allowing the opponents to get organised and then we attack at the speed of lightening a snail, trying to break through with stupid little flicks and sideways passes. The only time we have attacked with any pace was against palace and ended up 4-0 by half time. Against Newcastle on more than one occasion we took 5 passes to get from the Lloris to the halfway line even though the whole Newcastle team were lined up 10 yards from their penalty box. Gone are the dynamic end to end sweeping moves to be replaced by pedestrian crap week in week out. The players are capable as the first 20 mins against Bayern showed. Some arses need kicking - though we would probably miss.

In the Bayern game as long as NDombele was pushing forward and hitting those through balls we were keeping Bayern at Bay.There was no other plan. Winks was left alone as a DM and he isnt a great DM. What we needed was Dier as the DM not Winks and maybe Winks a bit further forward and NDombele ahead making these plays. We nearly copped a few early and that would have helped but it was a limited strategy (I dont think Poch can think on his feet and just has the one plan that he has always had and that situation with NDombele creating going forward had no checks and balances as we were wide open when they countered.

In general with Poch when we were all fitter than other teams our counter was great. But when we generally played from the back,Poch had them playing backwards and sideways to keep possessions,defences got tighter and we failed to unleash the beast (Kane and co)
Poch is limited tactically I think

 

[SpartanSpur]

It's not about DESERVING. That is without question. It's about whether giving him more time is the right course of action for the club.

The fact he has lost the dressing room without doubt. Has a manager ever come back from something like this?

Nobody has come back to me on this.

This is absolutely spot on. For me he will always be a hero for what he did, but with all the information available it just does not seem recoverable at all. In a perfect world Poch could recover this and take us on to greater things but I just can't see it.

Even if he did I'm starting to have real concerns if he has the elite tactical acumen to truly compete for top honours, the last year or so certainly suggests otherwise. Feels dirty to say it as I genuinely love the guy and I know he's been working under harsh restrictions, but for a while he had the best team in the country and fell short time and time again. Son at LWB anyone?

Poch is an unreal motivator and has a great plan a system, both of which have disappeared this year. From the evidence on the pitch and the ITK it seems like the motivation is a real issue.

Under his management the 3rd best squad in the league has lost more games than any top flight team. How is that healthy? We can't pin all the blame on wantaway players. Hazard knew he was leaving Chelsea last season and it didn't affect them, they got top 4 and a Europa League.

Lot of people suggesting we should write this season off and the grass isn't greener but personally I don't think we can afford a 'write off' season. If trix's hints are to be believed Kane is part of the group questioning Poch. We can't afford to lose Harry, we'll never have the money to buy an elite striker. I never thought I'd say this 8-9 months ago but I want to see what a proven winner and elite tactician can do with this group. They will be interested, no doubt about it. Kane is a once in a generation talent and if we lose him without winning anything that is criminal. Those that want Poch to stay at all costs may be willing to write this season off but I doubt Harry does, not will he want europa league or worse for next season...

 

[SirHarryHotspur]

Whether it is Poch or the players, we have been playing possession in our own half, allowing the opponents to get organised and then we attack at the speed of lightening a snail, trying to break through with stupid little flicks and sideways passes. The only time we have attacked with any pace was against palace and ended up 4-0 by half time. Against Newcastle on more than one occasion we took 5 passes to get from the Lloris to the halfway line even though the whole Newcastle team were lined up 10 yards from their penalty box. Gone are the dynamic end to end sweeping moves to be replaced by pedestrian crap week in week out. The players are capable as the first 20 mins against Bayern showed. Some arses need kicking - though we would probably miss.

Spot on and this was the same style I saw in the youth game against Bayern , I think it was about 80 minutes before Parrot even had his only shot at goal. One example of how the youngsters are being coached , we had a free kick couple of yards inside the Bayern half , did we launch the ball into the box hoping Parrott might get onto a knockdown or get a header in , no the ball went sideways and then back to our goalkeeper, how do you score doing that?