The Diamond

[werty]

Yeah I realised halfway through posting that my suggestion was to line up in a diamond then abandon it instantly

It's the best solution to it in fairness!

 

[yankspurs]

...is forever

 

[fletch82]

I think the way we play it it's more a cubic zirconia

 

[kaz Hirai]

Who knows really, I suspect poch would rather die by it, rather than scrap just it to make a point if it comes good.


This is a Excerpt from a tactic analysis on the diamond:

" In the diamond, the two most central midfielders share the creative responsibility, so they become Regista and Trequartista. The two wide midfielders do the box-to-box things."

so that probably explains why he plays winks as a DM.
The base and the tip of the diamond are creative. Not just a destroyer like dier.
In that case he doesn't really have a player in the squad for it, not winks, not Skip .

By the logic of the above the best fit is perhaps

------------------FOYTH

--------ndombele-----sissoko

------------------LAMELA

@thinktank was right all along !

 

[ljinko888]

When things go shit for me on Football Manager I just revert back to the basic 4-4-2. No team instructions, no player instructions, default player roles.

Maybe Poch should do that but ask the assistant to pick the team.

 

[stormfly]

I always knew that Poch had an account in SC.

@stormfly - your cover has been blown. I’m surprised you’d fall for such a simple trick.

Some men just want to watch the world burn.

 

[punkisback]

The issue with the diamond is that the side CMs play like wingers and Cms and cover two positions. If they are dragged out by attacking opposition FB this leaves only the holder in the middle. The 10 doesn’t track back and the strikers definitely won’t. Playing two men either side of Kane, they know that they have to track full backs. This will allow three in the middle to focus on opposition CMs. Kane occupies the CBS. Diamonds just aren’t built for tracking players man to man.

 

[kaz Hirai]

The issue with the diamond is that the side CMs play like wingers and Cms and cover two positions. If they are dragged out by attacking opposition FB this leaves only the holder in the middle. The 10 doesn’t track back and the strikers definitely won’t. Playing two men either side of Kane, they know that they have to track full backs. This will allow three in the middle to focus on opposition CMs. Kane occupies the CBS. Diamonds just aren’t built for tracking players man to man.

Which is why the 10 has to be lamela really as he'll put in the work of a DM too

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

If Poch can turn this around then I’m all for that I just can’t see it. But IF he can then I wish he’d stop playing the fucking diamond and just play this team: (4-2-3-1/3-4-2-1 hybrid), it worked fine for ages why change it.

Lloris

KWP/Foyth/Aurier
Toby/Sanchez
Jan/Foyth
Rose/Davies

Dier!!!/Wanyama/Skipp (CDM)
Ndombele/Sissoko/Winks (CM)

Lucas/Lamela/Eriksen (RM)
Dele/Lo celso (CAM)
Son/Sessengon (LM)

Kane (ST)

Play like we did 2016-17 when we chased down Leicester or season after when we came 2nd to Chelsea it was 4-2-3-1/3-4-2-1 hybrid all season , players knew what they were doing and we dominated every game. Ndombele can be dembele and the rest of team apart from KWP is the same or upgraded, really don’t see why he moved away from this, it was working so well we just needed to add a few more players, since then things have spiralled downwards.

 

[OPModric]

Diamonds have never worked. Roy tried one when at England, and the space it left was horrible.

I think Brazil won the world cup 1994 with a diamond midfield. Ancelottis Milan with Pirlo gattuso, seedorf and rui Costa won CL.

 

[Shadydan]

It's an old skool formation mos famously used by Carlo Ancelotti with that great Milan side:

But you don't see it used much these days, I think that's because opposing full backs tend to play higher up the pitch and create 2v1's against the cm's.

That's probably why we are constantly exposed by it and why you never really see it much anymore.

 

[O'Brien]

Poch playing a diamond seems to be his way of being able to include NDombele in the starting line up. What he’s failed to recognise is that ND excelled at Lyon because he had a DM alongside him in Aouar.

1) we haven’t been playing a DM
2) ND isn’t a DM
3) after Sissoko’s previous season he now seems to be undroppable despite his limitations. The knock on effect of this is to play both MS and ND = the bloody diamond. We could play both in a 3 but not with Winks, must be Dier. The limitation of playing both plus one other also means sacrificing a creative player

Dier, NDombele + Eriksen or Lamela

Moura/Lamela, Son + Kane

Tousart was the DM, not Aouar.

 

[shelfmonkey]

I think the way we play it it's more a cubic zirconia

Nah mate, a lump of coal.

 

[Gassin's finest]

I think Brazil won the world cup 1994 with a diamond midfield. Ancelottis Milan with Pirlo gattuso, seedorf and rui Costa won CL.

Fair enough, but let's caveat that by saying that that's four of the best players to have played the game there.

 

[NorthernYido]

If Poch can turn this around then I’m all for that I just can’t see it. But IF he can then I wish he’d stop playing the fucking diamond and just play this team: (4-2-3-1/3-4-2-1 hybrid), it worked fine for ages why change it.

Lloris

KWP/Foyth/Aurier
Toby/Sanchez
Jan/Foyth
Rose/Davies

Dier!!!/Wanyama/Skipp (CDM)
Ndombele/Sissoko/Winks (CM)

Lucas/Lamela/Eriksen (RM)
Dele/Lo celso (CAM)
Son/Sessengon (LM)

Kane (ST)

Play like we did 2016-17 when we chased down Leicester or season after when we came 2nd to Chelsea it was 4-2-3-1/3-4-2-1 hybrid all season , players knew what they were doing and we dominated every game. Ndombele can be dembele and the rest of team apart from KWP is the same or upgraded, really don’t see why he moved away from this, it was working so well we just needed to add a few more players, since then things have spiralled downwards.

Dier was such an important player in the 4-2-3-1 as your treble exclamation highlights. I think it's very notable how much his own game fell apart, obviously much due to injury but also our formation change since. He kept things nice and simple, was rarely caught out upfield and could slot into a back three when the fullbacks were high up the pitch.

 

[fletch82]

Nah mate, a lump of coal.

Surely coal is quite useful ?

 

[spursfan77]

If Poch perceives changing formation shows weakness rather than flexibility then he won’t do it. I don’t know enough about the Argentine psyche to know what he will do.

Sometimes the best managers listen. Sometimes they don’t though.

 

[bubble07]

The quotes from Sissoko is very telling and surprised how underplayed it is in here to all the diamond haters

He pretty much said he hates it and it's not working

 

[bubble07]

My issue with it is that it's being used to shoehorn all his favourites in to the disregard of the collective.

Clearly on his favourites list we have
- Sissoko
- Winks
- Kane
- Son as a striker
- Maybe now Ndombele

If you sacrifice width in order to play the two strikers centrally then you need to have a defensive midfielder who can shield the defence which allows the fullbacks to offer width and the CB's to split and cover the space left behind. However we don't do that, instead we're trying to fit in 3 players in midfield who frankly should all be vying for one position and the clear winner is Ndombele, who would then benefit from the aforementioned defensive midfielder next to him or much better behind him.

My opinion even if we played a DM in the diamond we would still be vulnerable so for me he has to make a decision, Kane or Son up top. The obvious answer is to put Kane up top push Son out wide and then have another winger.

We then have the final spot in the midfield free, this is where we need to decide whether its 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 and because of Ndombele's obvious talents further forward. I would favour switching to a 3 meaning that Winks/Sissoko/Dele/Lo Celso can fight for that spot depending on the opposition.

So for me it has to be:

Dier
Ndombele Lo Celso
Lamela Kane Son

I'd be looking to upgrade the DM if possible. but even this 4-3-3 we have so much opportunity for variance, we can go 4-2-3-1 easily in this formation even with the same dam players. All these players are flexible. If during the game you want to push Son in centrally with these players, move Kane into the 10 and have Lo Celso push outwide as he's done for argentina and have Ndombele drop back into a 2 and you can still retain the width. There's so much flexibility there but we seem to be actively avoiding width and fullback protection. We have done for 2/3 years.

What you say does make sense but imo Son is playing upfront alongside Kane to do some of his running. Kane upfront on his own right now dont think will work. It will allow opposition to come out of defence so easily

We all saw how hard Son was chasing down Neuer and their defence. Kane cant do that so the only 2 formations is 3-5-2 or 4-3-3

In a 4-3-3 unless u have two winger types in the front 3 it can be a straight forward 4-3-3. If you have Dele or Eriksen or Lamela then it sort of gets lopsided. Lucas is the most suitable but he isnt really creative. Genuinely dont see him attempt through balls of any kind. Also in a 4-3-3 if one of the in the middle isnt creative or is having an off day the creatively relies heavily on the full backs who are simply not good enough. Foyth and Sessegnon might be better but Poch may not have the time to find out

The annoying thing is the diamond formation is actually a very good one if the players in the formation are suitable and they are on board with it

Dier/Winks
Lo Celso Ndombele/Sissoko
Dele/Lamela/Eriksen
Kane Son

 

[bubble07]

If Poch is becoming deluded the job of his assistant coaches is to point it out and look at it impartially. Surely if Perez and co thought it was bad they would tell him?